We are at War

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 9:30 am

Originally posted by Karembeu
Hypocritical, yes....but that's not what I'm after.
Why do they chose to show POWS on TV?!? Doesn't it just hurt their cause (with public opinion and what else), and make their enemies even more determined?!?

Why? I suppose it is propaganda to increase the fighting moral. I do however think it hurts their cause long term since it is inumane, and against the Geneva conventions. And I would assume the US/UK will only feel more aggressive and hostile towards Iraq, which especially in the US where people are extremly sensitive to American casualites and images of dead or wounded Americans, is only going to increase the public support for Dubbayh. (Remember the impact the footage of one dead American soldier being dragged along the street in Mogadishu? That footage had an enormous impact on the American people and their view of what happened in Somalia.

However, I would assume that the picture of the American soldiers standing above the corpses of two Iraqi soldiers who were shot although they were waving a white flag, was not broadcasted in US TV. We have to remember that information is now flowing freely and unbiased and especially not in war, so most of the images and reports we see and hear currently, are part of either sides propaganda machinery.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 9:57 am

Radio Nederland has done a four-minute feature on the way Dubya's administration has attempted to curtail the media displaying the cost of the war in terms of US lives. According to Piet Bakker, media analyst at the University of Amsterdam,

""They're moving behind the troops and try to be as objective as possible, but to a large extent they're part of the army. Since it's very hard to get the story from another source, the media have to obtain information from other sources like al-Gazeera to show the whole picture. But last night, I noticed that US media were quite unfamiliar with the pictures from al-Jazeera."

Here's a link that will bring up the entire audio piece (in English!) via RealPlayer.

Audace · Post by **Audace** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:11 am

Do you have a Dutch background Fable?

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:13 am

Originally posted by Audace
Do you have a Dutch background Fable?

No, though I've kept in touch with Dutch informational sources since taking a university semester in Amsterdam back in 1972. I also believe in getting my information from as many different, reputable sources as possible containing varied viewpoints.

Audace · Post by **Audace** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:23 am

Nice, I'm surprised you actually made the effort to learn the language...

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 11:46 pm

Don't want to sound naive but...

...my prayers go out to POWs from both sides.

BTW, the soldier from El Paso, Texas is a Filipino mestizo. My prayers to him and his family. He's the soldier who answered, "I'm following orders."

edit- sorry dont know if he's really from El Paso, but he is Army Spc Joseph Hudson.

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 11:58 pm

I'm glad they found the two men from the chopper that crashed inside Baghdad. Watching the video clips of the Iraqi militia shooting into the river and lighting up reeds along the river side was quite disheartening to say the least.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:10 am

Originally posted by fable
Radio Nederland has done a four-minute feature on the way Dubya's administration has attempted to curtail the media displaying the cost of the war in terms of US lives.

Try as he might...can't stop the internet (At least yet)

As for the US not showing the dead Americans, I will sound cruel and heartless (possible @#$%*@$), but it is the cost of war and hiding it will not make it go away.

Delacroix · Post by **Delacroix** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 2:19 am

For a long time i dont post here... i was not "lurking" either, i decided to came to take a look about what the people here, of GB, was debating in the invasion of iraq issue.

Unhapply i could not take the thread from the begining(we are in the 9th page)...

I know that is not interesting to take a debate in the middle and do general considerations about 9 pages and not over an especific post/comment/opinion. Sorry.

The invasion saddens me, if there is a commom point, good to know that this is one beetween us all.

Some considerations:

1)I saw the international media using the term "allies". Allies? btw, to "free" iraq... whenever i hear things like that happens to me a sudden lack of words...

2)I guess it is obvious for everybody the agreession commited by USA, in this invasion, in the views of the international law, favored by a weak( to not say crippled) ONU; USA is no better( to not say worst) than Iraq for the world. A invasion to change the "status quo" (diferent from the first Gulf War) is actually part of USA history, part of USA crimes. That btw, run in vicious(repeats) circles on unlearning. Every, really every, conflict/incident/act of terror that happens against USA is always related to some past intervention. And the leviathan keep walking on the earth.

3)This war is evident a expression Psicopathology(in both sides). Mr. president Hamlet, have recreated Trumman doutrine, as i said, in a totally diferent context of his father in the first Gulf War (Change status quo instead of Keep Status quo). Saddan, well this one is known psicophata at least, for good in a lower scale(of action). I feel absolutelly no guilty, to wish that in the end of this both, the mans and their doutrines , go down.

4) Media(international). Totally irresponsable, the first gulf war was known by the first video game war. This seccond is even worst. Expressions like "Army synphony", " Atack Harmony", folowed by the apotheosis on the marvelous precision of the "smart" weapons and technology... . All that create, for me, such a fake and stupid exposition of what is happening, it draw the "fact per se" to the banal... even worst than what happens in the first war. Its really disgusting... good that the majority of the world is not getting it like that.

Sorry to come in so hard time, i ll try to keep reading GB more often.
The objective of mine is just to add point/views and talk about such relevant(and sad) momment we are living.
My sadness for you, and my condolences for yours sadness.

Besides of all, beside of world, is nice to see you people of GB.

I am trying to inspire my own peace... i hope you all do the same.

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:32 am

Re:

Originally posted by Delacroix
4) Media(international). Totally irresponsable, the first gulf war was known by the first video game war. This seccond is even worst. Expressions like "Army synphony", " Atack Harmony", folowed by the apotheosis on the marvelous precision of the "smart" weapons and technology...

What astounded me the most was the shock and awe reference. How dropping around 1,500 bombs on a civilian population is suppose to be inspiring is beyond me.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 6:00 am

Re:

Originally posted by Delacroix
2)I guess it is obvious for everybody the agreession commited by USA, in this invasion, in the views of the international law, favored by a weak( to not say crippled) ONU; USA is no better( to not say worst) than Iraq for the world. A invasion to change the "status quo" (diferent from the first Gulf War) is actually part of USA history, part of USA crimes. That btw, run in vicious(repeats) circles on unlearning. Every, really every, conflict/incident/act of terror that happens against USA is always related to some past intervention. And the leviathan keep walking on the earth.

I do take exception to the fact that you have branded the USA as the only mitigating and combatent factor within the Iraqi war, the UK are involved, as are Australia, Poland and many other nations that have decided to join the US, through support/logistical means, air-space permissions and the like.

It's not just the US!

CM · Post by CM » Tue Mar 25, 2003 6:27 am

I guess freedom of the press means nothing when you dont agree with what is being said.

http://media.guardian.co.uk/iraqandthem ... 04,00.html

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 6:43 am

Re: Re:

Originally posted by Nippy
I do take exception to the fact that you have branded the USA as the only mitigating and combatent factor within the Iraqi war, the UK are involved, as are Australia, Poland and many other nations that have decided to join the US, through support/logistical means, air-space permissions and the like.

I found it quite amusing how many allies were claimed, thirty five iirc, however most of those are purely for air space or whatever, very few have comitted troops and half of them are totally obscure countries who don't really have much to offer anyway, I mean Uzbekistan isn't exactly known for it's fantastic war machine

Nippy has a point though, there is more than just two countries involved.

CM · Post by CM » Tue Mar 25, 2003 10:09 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2884701.stm

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 10:27 am

Originally posted by CM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2884701.stm

At least that's better than Halliburton getting all of the contracts

Surely Cheney couldn't be so two faced as to allow the repair contracts to go to the same company he used to be CEO of, surely...sadly it is so

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 10:44 am

Originally posted by Chanak
However, to ensure that each soldier understood on an instinctual level just how important it was to stay in your MOPP gear, the US Army sends all trainees through the "Gas Chamber". I have commented on this before, and another SYM member noted that it was featured in the movie "GI Jane." Well, this is an actual event in training....and I can't describe the experience to you, other than to say it was rather horrific after 5 seconds of unprotected exposure. I was one of the lucky ones; I managed to leave the gas chamber without vomiting all over myself...

*shudder* I was one of those with a more extreme reaction. No vomiting, but I drooled uncontrollably and all exposed skin reacted as though I had sunburn - which took a day to fade. My eyes were watering for hours - initially I couldn't see my way out the door.

T'lainya · Post by **T'lainya** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:33 pm

Sky news is reporting that there's an uprising in Basra and that Iraqi troops are firing on civilians.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 1:01 pm

Originally posted by T'lainya
Sky news is reporting that there's an uprising in Basra and that Iraqi troops are firing on civilians.

BBC reports that this is what British troops were hoping for.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2886235.stm

I wonder whether it really was a mistake to take out the water and electricity

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 2:22 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans
...However, I would assume that the picture of the American soldiers standing above the corpses of two Iraqi soldiers who were shot although they were waving a white flag, was not broadcasted in US TV. We have to remember that information is now flowing freely and unbiased and especially not in war, so most of the images and reports we see and hear currently, are part of either sides propaganda machinery.

Indeed. And it seems you are just as liable to fall prey to that propaganda as we Americans.

When I read this comment, I had in fact never seen any picture of dead Iraqis near a white flag of surrender. I did some looking on the internet, and still had no luck (it was, I admit, a rather quick search, being on work time

). But just listening to NPR at this time, they had a small snippet on this very subject.

A newspaper editor was being questioned on what his newspaper thought was appropriate for print, and why. He brought up the picture you refer to as an example. He said his company decided not to print it for two reasons:

1) He described it as "grisly," indicating that the Iraqi's appeared to be de-capitated. In the US it is just not very common for things like this to be shown. For good or ill, we have a rather more "conservative" attitude when it comes to showing raw violence, and this editor felt the photo was simply not printable for that reason.

2) The editor also pointed out that he had no way of knowing the circumstances of those Iraqi's deaths. He said they may have been shot while surrendering; or, they may have been of those Iraqi's who are pretending to surrender, and then attack; or, they may have been bombed in such a way that the attacker could never have seen the flag of surrender (artillery or airplane or tank). Without being able to provide some context, he felt it was irrespsonsible to print such a photo.

You say "soldiers who were shot although they were waving a white flag" -- but I ask you how you might know this to be true?

I would suggest than anyone following the coverage of this conflict make every attempt to remain skeptical of all incoming information, and please be absolutely certain of what you are saying before you accuse either side of war crimes (which is what killing PoWs would be).

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 7:11 am

Originally posted by C Elegans
BBC reports that this is what British troops were hoping for.

I wonder whether it really was a mistake to take out the water and electricity

Yes...it is what people in many parts of the world were waiting for: the Iraqi people to fight back against the regime that has been oppressing them for a very long time. They are encouraged by the opportunity presented by the Coalition offensive...just as some were during Operation Desert Storm. They eagerly cheered on troops during the Persian Gulf War...and were seen celebrating not only by the press, but also by some of my friends who were in the front-line units. What happened to these people afterwards is the stuff of nightmares...they were rounded up and executed by Hussein's troops.

Do you know who shut off water and electricity in Basra, CE?