Why must the best of them be evil?

Mr. Sprinkles · Post by **Mr. Sprinkles** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 8:44 pm

If you've noticed, Korgan, Viconia, and Edwin are all the best in SOA at what they do (hands down). The plot, however, is more oriented towards a good guy's perspective (conquering yournature and becoming a hero instead of a monster yadayadayada). So, the problem is having the best possible party while still walking the path of righteousness (that is, unless you create some of your own characters, which I really don't like doing). Now, it's my understanding that, in TOB, no one will leave the group due to reputation. But my question is; will they still piss and moan about it (because that does get annoying)? One thing I don't understand about neutral aligned characters is that they tend to favor good more than evil (meaning that they won't leave a good party, yet they will leave an evil party should the rep get too low). To me, neutral means neutral, which means as long as you've got food in your gut and you've got some of the best adventurers in the game in your party, you shouldn't really worry. I can't tell you how many groups of Amnish soldiers and Cowled wizards I've iced during the whole game. One last thing; my reputation was at 1 and I was still able to buy things from stores, so what the manual says isn't true. I say, be evil! Hey, take the dark path, and the Bhaal's in your court

Mr Snow · Post by **Mr Snow** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 8:58 pm

IMO Even the best NPC's in BG were evil.

Ah.. Edwin, what other NPC can singlehandedly takeout those people in the Iron Throne

samcu · Post by **samcu** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 11:41 pm

Don't you know the Chinese saying, "good move a foot, evil go a yard"

Basically 'evil never dies' - Wishmaster

Garcia · Post by **Garcia** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 12:55 am

Evil above all, evil is good. Don't people ever get tired of wanting to be a hero? there are so many more aspects in being evil so go get evil and enjoy it!
rape the horses and ride away on the women!!!

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 1:13 am

the problem is having the best possible party

That does not neccesarily involve the (single class) Evil characters. I believe multis will kick more @$$ in ToB.

One thing I don't understand about neutral aligned characters is that they tend to favor good more than evil

Well, if you were morally unconcerned, would you rather hang out with caring and friendly people or with backstabbing traitors?

Reidemeister · Post by **Reidemeister** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 1:20 am

"Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb"

- Dark Helmet, Spaceballs

violence · Post by **violence** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 6:23 am

right on Reidemeister.

Evil is more fun (and more difficult IMO) in BG2. You just can't beat backstabbing aerie and murdering Uncle Quayle in the Circus tent.

side note: none of the peasants in Athkatla seem to be able to save vs. wail of banshee. Heh Heh

side note #2: I don't think any of the Cowled ones have more than 60 hp.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 7:52 am

the evil char's are all more focused, they are built more towards powergaming. while a good party has a lot more flexibility.

i.e. korgan & saravok both have (almost) all their proff. in one weapon.
whereas minsc, valygar, keldorn, jaheria ect, all spread their proff around (and can't spec, like the single class ftr's) this is only a drawback for the good char's if the evil npc's have chosen a power weapon. (axe's are not as good in SoA as most other weapons, but there is a damn good hammer. (saravok w/ unholy reaver (glad i kept it))

the evil npc's are not team players the way the good chars are. each one has their own seperate skill and they do it well but don't cover for other's nearly as well.

consider keldorn, a good stand up ftr. can fight almost as well as korgan, and can cast dispel magic if a party member is charmed / or the target of another unfortunate spell, & he can cast true sight vs illusions.

now the evil party, edwin, can't cast true sight, too bad since he's got all those extra slots. he can have a few dispel magic but will cast at aprox 1/2 the level keldorn can (same for viconia) viconia has to memorize true sight unless the pc did or someone has the inf. spell book, but this costs her a high level cleric spell. and she can't cast it as fast as keldorn.

imoen / nalia can pick locks (with a fair degree of sucess + potions) edwin can memorize knock. or both parties can use jan / yoshimo.

anomen lacks viconia's mr & dex & a few spells. but is a much better ftr & has versatility he's equally capable fighting on the front lines & the rear. viconia really shines as a 2nd rank char, casting spells & controling undead.

edwin - just go check out the "nalia is better than edwin?" thread for why either one is better.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 8:07 am

Um Goody?

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 8:12 am

I think Koz-Ivan has covered it very well.

Keep in mind, it's tough to create a CRPG where you're not "good," as people commonly define the term by actions. An "evil" person as defined by the usual extremely narrow AD&D parameters would not help with the quests of others, so how would you advance? If you just ignored folks, you'd get nowhere, and if you went around killing and stealing, you'd be dead faster than you can say "Saverok's my evil twin."

The best CRPG I've seen for actually permitting the development of evil is in the Troika games: Fallout, Fallout2, and Arcanum. The developers deliberately created quests that let you work for the various oppresors, sleaze bags, scum, filth, and political appointees that you'll find throughout the game, instead of their victims. What's more, if you move unerringly along the path to evil, you acquire a reputation that eventually makes your attacks more successful: enemies want nothing to do with you. (It's only fair to note that you get a similar advantage the higher you go on the do-good side of the scale, too.)

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 10:19 am

the evil char's are all more focused, they are built more towards powergaming. while a good party has a lot more flexibility.
i.e. korgan & saravok both have (almost) all their proff. in one weapon.
whereas minsc, valygar, keldorn, jaheria ect, all spread their proff around

Mazzy is pretty specialized as well.

Strangely enough, the Evils have more need for cooperation and backup than the Goodies. This is due to their focussing. Edwin, for example, is not exactly Mr One-Man-Army; he needs front liners to be his best.

Armadin of Clan Geddin · Fri Jun 22, 2001 10:33 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>Um Goody? </STRONG>

LMAO

It be back!

Anyway,
Keldorn an' Mazzy be me favourite (an' arguably the best) NPCs. Methinks Keldorn could easily beat Korgan if both had about equally powerful equipment on, i.e. Korgan with Firestone or even Crom Faeyr an' a shield, Keldorn with Carsomyr an' Gauntlets o' Dexterity.

violence · Post by **violence** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 12:36 pm

Methinks Keldorn could easily beat Korgan if both had about equally powerful equipment on, i.e. Korgan with Firestone or even Crom Faeyr an' a shield, Keldorn with Carsomyr an' Gauntlets o' Dexterity.

not so. I tested it. While I did not conduct a test as well recorded and accurate as the ones Kensai Ryu does, I did put Korgan up against Keldorn. It went like this.
both level 16

Equipment
Korgan
shield of Balduran
Crom Fraeyr
helm of balduran
no rings or boots or gauntlets(for simplicity)
no shadowkeeper (of course)

Keldorn
gauntlets of dex. (unfair advantage, but it didn't matter)
Holy Avenger
no rings or boots or gauntlets(for simplicity)
no shadowkeeper (of course)

I didn't even activate Korgans enrage.

Game paused. Both made to attack each other. Game unpaused.

Korgan beats crap out of Keldorn 5 times. Only once does he get down below 50 hitpoints.

Then I activated Korgan's Enrage and did it again. Obviously the results were the same. Even with Keldorn's unfair advantage of Gauntlets (Korgan could have had weapon expertise) it still was no contest.

violence · Post by **violence** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 12:38 pm

I accidentally contradicted myself. Keldorn does have gauntlets on for the fight. Stupid copy + paste habit

violence · Post by **violence** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 12:40 pm

damn! I also forgot to put Keldorn's helm of glory on. My mind must be going

Armadin of Clan Geddin · Fri Jun 22, 2001 12:43 pm

Originally posted by violence:
<STRONG>damn! I also forgot to put Keldorn's helm of glory on. My mind must be going</STRONG>

WTF?!

At least make it fair an' give 'em both Helm of Balduran!

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 12:51 pm

of course korgan won that fight, he has a str of 24 from the crom! (25-1 from the shield)

he should win every time under that circumstance, cause the fight isn't fair.

i dare say in any weapon duel, any char with 7-8 more pts of strength will win every time.

if you want a real test give them them similar armour, like items, & best in class weapons. if korgan is a hammer guy, give keldorn a potion storm giant strength. korgan should still win but it will be close.

violence · Post by **violence** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 12:53 pm

Honestly, try the tests yourself. Give I didn't feel like warping in another HoB. However, the results were pretty onesided either way. Keldorn didn't seem to stand a chance.

Heck, give Keldorn the HoB and Korgan no helm. I doubt it will make any difference.

violence · Post by **violence** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 12:59 pm

of course korgan won that fight, he has a str of 24 from the crom! (25-1 from the shield)
he should win every time under that circumstance, cause the fight isn't fair.

i dare say in any weapon duel, any char with 7-8 more pts of strength will win every time.

if you want a real test give them them similar armour, like items, & best in class weapons. if korgan is a hammer guy, give keldorn a potion storm giant strength. korgan should still win but it will be close.

Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'll even be willing to give Korgan a different weapon and try it. I took those weapons (pretty much) from Armadin's own post

Methinks Keldorn could easily beat Korgan if both had about equally powerful equipment on, i.e. Korgan with Firestone or even Crom Faeyr an' a shield, Keldorn with Carsomyr an' Gauntlets o' Dexterity.

I was just making the point that under no reasonable cirbumstances could Keldorn "easily beat Korgan". Equally powerfull equipment is open for debate, but either way, Korgan is probably going to come out on top

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 1:10 pm

violence i agree w/ you that korgan should win, due to the str advantage of rage & use of a shield. korgan also has more hit points iirc.

armadin - the helm is inconsequential.

if korgan couln't win at least 4 out of seven vs keldorn there would be zero reason to take korgan.