We are at War

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:07 pm

Hmmm, ok first you stated that would anyone on SYM cheer for an Iraqi victory or heavy casualties yet now you go off way of topic and discuss the worlds reactions and opinions to the current war.

Originally posted by at99
Reading your comments Tam it is hardly obvious of your position.....and dont assume everyone in the world (including non-english part) would want a US /coalition win.

Oh sure they are plenty parts of the world who would love to see the "infidels" lose as they call them. But who here on SYM would go out of their way to offend members of Game Banshee especially as a majority of them are Americans and a few have even served in the defence force or have family members serving now or in the past. Thats just plainfully rude thing to state.

Secondly I highly doubt that there are elements of SYM who would even secretly contemplate an Iraqi victory or as you stated earlier, heavy casualties on the coalition part. They may feel sadden by the plight of the Iraqi people but no one here supports the Iraqi regime. You could go through every single Iraqi thread and you won't find a single post in support of the tyrant.

As for my views, I don't believe in the principles that we are fighting for but the troops all took an oath to serve their leaders and I'll continue to support them as will many others.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:17 pm

As far as this thread is concerned...

...this is about news reports about the war and not on bringing issues AND THEN following up with opinions. There are other threads for this.

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:21 pm

My apologies

Originally posted by Maharlika
...this is about news reports about the war and not on bringing issues AND THEN following up with opinions. There are other threads for this.

Sorry Mah, I've had enough of this and similar threads and I won't join in future war discussions.

at99 · Post by **at99** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:55 pm

Originally posted by Tamerlane
Hmmm, ok first you stated that would anyone on SYM cheer for an Iraqi victory or heavy casualties yet now you go off way of topic and discuss the worlds reactions and opinions to the current war.

Oh sure they are plenty parts of the world who would love to see the "infidels" lose as they call them. But who here on SYM would go out of their way to offend members of Game Banshee especially as a majority of them are Americans and a few have even served in the defence force or have family members serving now or in the past. Thats just plainfully rude thing to state.

Secondly I highly doubt that there are elements of SYM who would even secretly contemplate an Iraqi victory or as you stated earlier, heavy casualties on the coalition part. They may feel sadden by the plight of the Iraqi people but no one here supports the Iraqi regime. You could go through every single Iraqi thread and you won't find a single post in support of the tyrant.

As for my views, I don't believe in the principles that we are fighting for but the troops all took an oath to serve their leaders and I'll continue to support them as will many others.

You can can show your support for the war on my other thread.

at99 · Post by **at99** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:04 pm

I am outraged about news reports that Iraq is hiding weapons in classrooms, executing POWs, military dressing in civilian clothes, Iraqis trying to kill people who are surrendering, boby trapping bridges, oil wells, Iraqi military hiding weapons in civilian areas, some arab media reports about the war, Iraqi propaganda machine, Iraqi regime behaviour.......just to name a few

Since I want the US/coalition to win the war these things have bothered me as I guess they will bother other people about the Iraqi regime and why it needs to be taken out.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 12:08 am

Originally posted by Tybaltus
Now that America is in the war, and Bush has his mind made up, its too late to pull out. And even if the draft DOESNT happen, and lets say that USA does pull out...the casualties would be at least what they were in Vietnam. With all this guerrilla warfare, Its beginning to look like the Vietnam of the Middle East.

Interesting you should say that. From all the reports, it looks like saddam has been studying the tatics of the Vietcong (and there are some serious horror stories there). Check the photo 2/3's of the way down here and guess where it was taken before reading the caption.

Karembeu · Post by **Karembeu** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 1:07 am

Originally posted by at99
I am outraged about news reports that Iraq is hiding weapons in classrooms, executing POWs, military dressing in civilian clothes, Iraqis trying to kill people who are surrendering, boby trapping bridges, oil wells, Iraqi military hiding weapons in civilian areas, some arab media reports about the war, Iraqi propaganda machine, Iraqi regime behaviour.......just to name a few

Don't believe in everything you see on TV....

at99 · Post by **at99** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 1:44 am

Originally posted by Karembeu
Don't believe in everything you see on TV....

What is it exactly I said that you dont believe in?

Karembeu · Post by **Karembeu** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:02 am

Originally posted by at99
What is it exactly I said that you dont believe in?

What I meant was that sitting in your peaceful livingroom following everything by TV, radio and the Internet it is impossible to know exactly what is going on. Therefore to me this "information" sounds more like speculation.

The "Iraqi propaganda machine" is probably no worse than the "coalition propaganda machine".

at99 · Post by **at99** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:12 am

Originally posted by Karembeu
The "Iraqi propaganda machine" is probably no worse than the "coalition propaganda machine".

I dont think a lot of people will believe you. Are you sure you believe this?

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:37 am

There's more to it than meets the eye...

... I think what Karembeu is saying (correct me if I'm wrong, Karem) is that there is no surprise if both sides use information, pictures and scenes/video in order to get the "upperhand" in letting the world know what "truly happened" and that it is their side that is winning and that it is their side that is in the right...

...for example, a picture with a fallen Iraqi in civillian clothes holding a white flag being looked at by a coalition soldier can be used by both sides...

...one would say that the Iraqi was actually a soldier in disguise and that the coalition soldier was smart enough not to fall for that trap...

...the other would claim that the coalition soldiers fired and killed innocent Iraqi civilians.

Now, who's really telling the truth?

If you were really there to witness it (which is what Karem was trying to say, I think) then you would know what really transpired.

For those interested, check out this website. I couldn't assure the veracity of the reports, though it would be interesting to see what the Russians have to say.

News you won't find on CNN.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 5:35 am

Originally posted by at99
I am outraged about news reports that Iraq is hiding weapons in classrooms, executing POWs, military dressing in civilian clothes, Iraqis trying to kill people who are surrendering, boby trapping bridges, oil wells, Iraqi military hiding weapons in civilian areas, some arab media reports about the war, Iraqi propaganda machine, Iraqi regime behaviour.......just to name a few

I have said this before but none of these tactics surprise me in the least, why should they? I know enough about the atrocities of every war be they civil or world to know that as soon as they start all the rules are out the window. Except the Geneva convention...of course that only applies when it is for propoganda purposes, we don't pay attention to such things when it suits us.

Maybe these reports are incorrect or an exaggeration however it wouldn't surprise me if they were true. Why exactly anyone is surprised by all that has gone on surprises me.

I have a nice healthy statistic that I read on another site, in one day during WW1 60'000 British soldiers were killed. Makes the 30 odd that are dead now seem like a dream.

Perhaps I should be less cynical

The War will be over in days and the Iraqi's will welcome the "liberating" forces...yeah, whatever

Karembeu · Post by **Karembeu** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 5:43 am

Originally posted by at99
I dont think a lot of people will believe you. Are you sure you believe this?

Yes, that is what I believe. I'm sure both sides are using their "propaganda machine" at utmost extent to win their cause.
Of course "grown up" in a western country the "coalition propaganda" should feel more "comfortable" to me, that is exactly why it doesn't.

@Maharlika: I couldn't have said it better myself...

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 7:24 am

Two things that are enraging me:

Americans affirm that they're trying to avoid civilian victims with all the possible means.
Well this is a blatant lie, if logic isn't an opinion.
They could be even *sure* to avoid them if they truly wanted: just don't fire
It seems that Iraqis really executed the POWs. No comment.

Delacroix · Post by **Delacroix** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 8:22 am

hm

@at99
I dont exactly perceived if you noted the objectives on the sides, when asked about in wicth side ppl is. The concept of "win" is diferent in both sides. The deers actually, dont kill the lions... they win by staying alive.
And if you ask me if i am pro iraq resistance... yes i am. To make it clear, be pro resistance dont mean be pro Hussein.

Surprised me the way some think that there is no way back... yes there is, there is way back.

@ Littiz
Yes... those imperialistic rethoric really make me crazy... "We are trying to save live in both sides" , "We are going to free the citzens"

Tybaltus · Post by **Tybaltus** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 8:33 am

Originally posted by Sojourner
Interesting you should say that. From all the reports, it looks like saddam has been studying the tatics of the Vietcong (and there are some serious horror stories there). Check the photo 2/3's of the way down here and guess where it was taken before reading the caption.

Thats very interesting....yes, it looks exactly like Vietnam. Reminded me of a scene from Apocolypse, Now!. Saddam is a smart man, and he knows what the Vietnam war did to the US troops and the continuing decrease of the army's morale. As the troops went marching through Vietnam, they realized, while they were killing much of their opposition, the enemies just kept coming and coming. It was seemingly endless...when the US realized they were not truly getting anywhere in the war after all the trauma and loss, it just KILLS morale. I wonder if the Iraqi war will do the same.

If Ive said it once, Ive said it a thousand times, "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

InfiniteNature · Post by **InfiniteNature** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:04 am

This just in, news from the war front.

War might take months.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/891427_asp.htm

CIA intelligence assesments of guerilla warfare ignored by President.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/891343_asp.htm

Iraquis aren't actually cheering for coalition forces, Gee what a surprise.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:04 am

Re: There's more to it than meets the eye...

Originally posted by Maharlika
... I think what Karembeu is saying (correct me if I'm wrong, Karem) is that there is no surprise if both sides use information, pictures and scenes/video in order to get the "upperhand" in letting the world know what "truly happened" and that it is their side that is winning and that it is their side that is in the right...

...for example, a picture with a fallen Iraqi in civillian clothes holding a white flag being looked at by a coalition soldier can be used by both sides...

...one would say that the Iraqi was actually a soldier in disguise and that the coalition soldier was smart enough not to fall for that trap...

...the other would claim that the coalition soldiers fired and killed innocent Iraqi civilians.

Now, who's really telling the truth?

If you were really there to witness it (which is what Karem was trying to say, I think) then you would know what really transpired.

For those interested, check out this website. I couldn't assure the veracity of the reports, though it would be interesting to see what the Russians have to say.

News you won't find on CNN.

I can offer my perspective on this, which amounts to nothing more than some news reports, and eyewitness testimony related to me from the Persian Gulf War by front-line soldiers:

The Iraqis staged a number of "false surrenders." An Iraqi government official stated as such in the article I linked to in my last post here, so it's going on now during this military engagement as well. Sojourner and Ty mentioned that this looks eerily like Vietnam...

And it does. Truth be told, American soldiers are under some rather specific orders out there. These orders conform to specific "rules of engagement" that were initiated over the past 100 years of warfare to prevent certain atrocities from taking place. For example, a school, or hospital, is protected under the rules of engagement and any officer in the field which violates this *will* be tried on war crimes charges.

If that was actually a Coalition missile that destroyed the apartment complex that we all saw on the news yesterday, JAG, along with any international officials concerned with these matters, will conduct a thorough investigation of all military personnel involved, from the soldiers that were sitting at the controls to the officer who ordered the action.

The Iraqis are indeed apt pupils of the Vietcong. I watched an interview with Ted Koppel on ABC news last night. He's embedded with the 3rd Infantry Division as they head towards Baghdad. They encountered a very sensitive situation where the Iraqi military had placed an artillery piece in a soccer field, next to a school. Any conventional means of removing this piece would have resulted in the school being destroyed as well...

But the 3rd Inf. Div. officers, acting within the guidelines of those rules of engagement, were able to nullify that artillery piece without damaging the school. Can I even begin to relate to you the risk American soldiers face in these situations? They are forced to operate under horrible conditions in order to counter the Iraqi tactic of nesting their military right in the midst of civilians. They do this while firing upon Coalition targets, with only one goal in mind...they hope the Coalition will fire upon upon them, and take the lives of civilians.

Scayde · Post by **Scayde** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 6:08 pm

Thanks for that link Mah, I have bookmarked it. I think a broad net is the best way to gather information now.

-- The Pentagon is looking seriously at report that seven U.S. soldiers in an ambushed convoy were killed by Iraqis on Sunday as they got out of their trucks with their hands up, surrendering, sources told CNN.

It is amazing how differently the various sources around the globe are portraying the war. Depending on who you listen to, it begs the question rather they are all even reporting on the same events or not. I am sure there are kernels of truth to be found in all, and all propaganda does not necessarily have to be fabrication to be effective. simply reporting the selected facts that favor a certain point of view, and omitting the rest often is all it takes.
CE stated,

"I would assume that the picture of the American soldiers standing above the corpses of two Iraqi soldiers who were shot although they were waving a white flag, was not broadcasted in US TV. We have to remember that information is now flowing freely and unbiased and especially not in war, so most of the images and reports we see and hear currently, are part of either sides propaganda machinery.

I would also assume that Al-Jazeera did not report that Iraqi television showed video of five U.S. soldiers in custody after their capture Sunday and the bodies of at least five other soldiers who had bullet wounds to their foreheads. This according to CNN.

My point being, I would hope we view all news at this time with a skeptical eye, gather your information from as many sources as possible, and use common sense in your analysis.

The United States operates under very strict rules of engagement. It is a known fact that the Iraqi forces to not operate within these same guide lines. When you take an apartment building, or a shopping mall full of civilians, arm them, men, women, and children alike with automatic rifles, RPG's, heavy caliber machine guns, give them coordinates of allied forces and instruct them that if they do not fight, they will be killed, these are no longer civilians, but agents of their military, and as such have been turned into targets by their own government. This has all been reported on Western Media.

It is unfortunate that many of these people are in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, much as they were in Somalia, but the fact is these 'civilians' are often in fact armed militia. Rather they are coerced, or acting voluntarily, the soldier being fired upon has no way of knowing. They have become an enemy target.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:40 am

At least there seems to be some discussion of how the tv news media is reporting the War, even if it's being done (typically) outside that media, itself. All information was orchestrated by the Defense Department during the Gulf War. Nobody got in, and the only news that got out came from the government. Now there are credible reporters on site, rather blatantly contradicting both US and Iraqi sources at times with on-the-ground observations.