ran2/rog3/ftrX vs. ran3/ftr4/rogX

Mirk · Post by **Mirk** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 6:54 am

which path do i choose?

this is in a party that has another rogue, who is the lockpicker/trapfinder/etc.

the char is now a human ran2/rog3/ftr4, and has the XP to go up a level. his role is a scout and 2-weilding mellee, not bows (the hakfling rogue covers that with 4 ftr levels) or hevy-duty tanking (the barbarian and pal2/cleric cover that role pretty fine)

your thoughts appreciated...

Krysalyn · Post by **Krysalyn** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 9:43 am

what is the rest of your party?

from your description, it sounds like the character as a whole is expendible, imho.

consider replacing him with a druid or cleric or arcane spellcaster...

or maybe replace him with a monk that can perform your scouting duties...

you already have one rogue, and he isnt a tank or missle support...

imo, your options depend on what you are lacking in your party right now... do you need him to continue to progress in rogue levels? I doubt it, with another rogue already in the party... you might need another tank, though, and a dual wielding tank might not be too bad an idea... that would require fighter levels only from now on (though you can also consider throwing in a couple levels of barbarian as well)

though it is probably way too late, you can also consider wizard levels...

another alternative, depending on your stat allocation, is to progress in ranger levels now, and get the minor spellcasting the ranger provides...

also, what are your goals for this party? is it a roleplaying party? do you plan to take this party into HoF?

lonely wolf · Post by **lonely wolf** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 10:56 am

oh my god!!!

, i can't belive you didn"t choose an arcane spellcaster!!!, i say you SHOULD take one...

Mirk · Post by **Mirk** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 11:57 pm

this is the party:

dwarf ftr4/barb5: heavy tank, 2-handed weapons... high str & con... the usual

halfling ftr4/rog5: lockpicker/disarmer & archer. high dex & int

drow pal2/cler4: backup tank (well, not yet), anti-spellcaster mellee, buffer,healing,dispelling spells, x-bow & mace+sheild

human monk1/druid8: main divine caster, sling

human bard1/wiz8: arcane caster, lvl 1 bardsong, x-bow

and the rog3/ran2/ftr4, high dex & str, scout & a 2-handed mellee char.

as u can see, the roles are pretty much what they will stay, and i'm pretty happy with their performance in each.
both ways of develloping the rog/ran/ftr are aimed at the same goal: producing the better build for this role. the pros and cons of each (mainly ftr vs. mainly rogue) that are in the manual/internet/etc. are clear to me (HP & feats vs. better sneak attack, skills and MAYBE the lvl10 rogue feats, as char lvl 17 is required here)

so, my querry is aimed at your expierince in the later stages of the game. all in all, the question seems to come to what is better, more HP & feats or Sneak attack & skills? what do you think?

Krysalyn · Post by **Krysalyn** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 8:18 am

Originally posted by Mirk

and the rog3/ran2/ftr4, high dex & str, scout & a 2-handed mellee char.

goal: producing the better build for this role. the pros and cons of each (mainly ftr vs. mainly rogue) that are in the manual/internet/etc. are clear to me (HP & feats vs. better sneak attack, skills and MAYBE the lvl10 rogue feats, as char lvl 17 is required here)

so, my querry is aimed at your expierince in the later stages of the game. all in all, the question seems to come to what is better, more HP & feats or Sneak attack & skills? what do you think?

well, unless you plan to take this party to HoF, lvl 17 might be what you end the game at in normal, so dont level rogue for the rogue-only feats...

what skills are you increasing each lvl? if you only want to spend skill pts in hide and move silently, if you are lightly armored and have a high Dex (you say you do) than spending those pts as cross-class skills might not be that big of a deal, i.e. you might already have enough pts in hide and move silently to pass all of your checks because of your high Dex, and thus additional rogue levels might not be needed...

how often does this character sneak attack? that will be the primary reason, imho, to advance as a rogue, for the additional 1d6 sneak attack dmg for every 2 rogue levels...

so, here are your options as I see them:

advance as rogue only, provides sneak attack damage and more skill pts

advance as a ranger only (I know you didnt have this as an option, but I want to cover all of bases), depending on your Wis, you might be able to cast some lower level spells with this guy for some additional healing

advance as a fighter only, you will get more feats, more hit points, higher BAB

begin and advance as a barbarian only, this will give you more hit points, faster movement (ideal for a scout), the ability to rage

I personally do not like the idea of progressing as a fighter the rest of the way... you should get plenty of feats, and I am not a fan of the ranger's spells or other abilities (aside from the 2 free feats)

so for me it comes down to rogue the rest of the way, and make this character a mage killer, having him scout ahead, then sneak attack the biggest threat and run, or sneak attack and then stand toe to toe and finish off the threat...

or start in as a barbarian (depending on alignment), and still have your scouting abilities, but this char will become a better frontline fighter with the higher hit points and rage

lonely wolf · Post by **lonely wolf** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 10:15 am

Originally posted by Mirk
this is the party:

dwarf ftr4/barb5: heavy tank, 2-handed weapons... high str & con... the usual

halfling ftr4/rog5: lockpicker/disarmer & archer. high dex & int

drow pal2/cler4: backup tank (well, not yet), anti-spellcaster mellee, buffer,healing,dispelling spells, x-bow & mace+sheild

human monk1/druid8: main divine caster, sling

human bard1/wiz8: arcane caster, lvl 1 bardsong, x-bow

and the rog3/ran2/ftr4, high dex & str, scout & a 2-handed mellee char.

as u can see, the roles are pretty much what they will stay, and i'm pretty happy with their performance in each.
both ways of develloping the rog/ran/ftr are aimed at the same goal: producing the better build for this role. the pros and cons of each (mainly ftr vs. mainly rogue) that are in the manual/internet/etc. are clear to me (HP & feats vs. better sneak attack, skills and MAYBE the lvl10 rogue feats, as char lvl 17 is required here)

so, my querry is aimed at your expierince in the later stages of the game. all in all, the question seems to come to what is better, more HP & feats or Sneak attack & skills? what do you think?

i can't believe you did so much MCing... i have just two charecters that are multiclassed in my party (a party of 6 charecters...)

Manbeleth · Post by **Manbeleth** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:37 pm

My party:
Shield dwarf - fighter (4)/ barbarian (x)
Shield dwarf - Battleguard of Tempus (x)
Human - Morninglord of Lathander (x)
Drow - Rogue (1)/ Conjurer (x)
Aasimar - Sorcerer (x)
Human - Sorcerer (x)

Arcane Spellcasters are essential

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 4:02 am

Originally posted by Krysalyn

so, here are your options as I see them:

advance as rogue only, provides sneak attack damage and more skill pts

advance as a ranger only (I know you didnt have this as an option, but I want to cover all of bases), depending on your Wis, you might be able to cast some lower level spells with this guy for some additional healing

advance as a fighter only, you will get more feats, more hit points, higher BAB

begin and advance as a barbarian only, this will give you more hit points, faster movement (ideal for a scout), the ability to rage

If you want to advance as a rogue, you need first to advance a lev. of ranger if you don't want to have exp. penalty;
If you start a barb. career you will suffer of exp. penalty too till you get to lev 2 barb. and then you still have to decide what to do in the future;

as a ranger you will get the same benefit of a fighter (hp, BAB) but you will have some spellcasting ability (if you have the required Wis.) and more skill points to improve hide, move silently and search (all class skills) and you will give away some feats (3), but you should already have WS;

my suggestion at this point is to advance as a ranger if you have the required Wis. for spellcasting or advance one lev. in ranger and then go for rogue for the sneak attack.

I don't suggest a fighter career, because you already should have enough feats and the extra feats you will get are less beneficial.

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:38 am

Originally posted by Manbeleth
My party:
Shield dwarf - fighter (4)/ barbarian (x)
Shield dwarf - Battleguard of Tempus (x)
Human - Morninglord of Lathander (x)
Drow - Rogue (1)/ Conjurer (x)
Aasimar - Sorcerer (x)
Human - Sorcerer (x)

Arcane Spellcasters are essential

That's Egervari UPP, you can find info about those char. at FAQ., although if you plan to play HoF, I think that a drow sorc. is more powerful of the Aesimar sorc.
Indeed spellcaster, expecially divine(!!!!) in IWD2 (much more than than in BG) are overpowered compared to melee fighters, but I prefer a more balanced party that the UPP with at least two non spellcaster char.

lonely wolf · Post by **lonely wolf** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 9:13 am

Arcane Spellcasters are essential [/b]

i agree entierly

Mirk · Post by **Mirk** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 3:58 pm

thanx all,

i'm VERY familiar with the UPP and updates, as well as with the spellcasters' power (also at level 9 my current party still lacks that uber-punch), and favorite class limitations. however, i do not feel the need to change my party, as they are based on other axis than "fast winning", such as finding the chars that correspond to all the portrets i want to use, etc.
the extencive multiclassing is based on my view of DnD classes as "courses" rather than "carriers", which represents the fantasy world settibgs better IMHO (what self-respecting warrior of a diety, i.e. priest would not get some training as a... well, warrior? why shouldn't a barbarian grunt get some organized fighting schooling, if he has the chance? an intelligent weak spellcaster may develop some way of inspiring his allies by word and song, as he is unlikely to survive in the midst of combat...)

so, if i sum up the comments re. the said char:

1. the feats ARE NOT worth the ftr levels after 4 (go rogue!)
2. sneak attacks ARE worth losing the ftr feats (go rogue!)
3. ran or barb future might be considered (this is unlikely for me)

so the question that i see as still standing is the HP's, which i am reluctant to loose as i like too keep this char in mellee. will the rogue have enough HPs to last the high level fights?

Manbeleth · Post by **Manbeleth** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 4:52 pm

Originally posted by lompo
That's Egervari UPP, you can find info about those char. at FAQ., although if you plan to play HoF, I think that a drow sorc. is more powerful of the Aesimar sorc.
Indeed spellcaster, expecially divine(!!!!) in IWD2 (much more than than in BG) are overpowered compared to melee fighters, but I prefer a more balanced party that the UPP with at least two non spellcaster char.

Yes it is

I loved his sugestions. Why do you say a drow sorc is more powerful than Aasimar sorc?

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 4:10 am

Originally posted by Manbeleth
Why do you say a drow sorc is more powerful than Aasimar sorc?

Indeed the thread is very interesting and gives a lot of good suggestions and ideas.
My statement comes after the reading of that thread, for the same reasoning that a drow rogue/wiz. was preferable to the thiefling rogue/wiz: in fact, expecially if you plan to go in HoF, the racial bonuses of the drow are enormous and although your sorc is one lev. lower, at high lev. you will not notice the difference and the racial bonuses will shine; also you have to remember that in your party you already have a human sorc. so you will not be in lack of spells.
In my opinion for normal mode the human sorc is the most powerful, followed by the Aesimar and the Drow at a close distance (all other racial option are much weaker); in HoF mode I think that is a tight race between drow and human, with aesimar coming third.
But that is just my opinion and all the three option are very strong.

Krysalyn · Post by **Krysalyn** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 8:04 am

Originally posted by Mirk
so the question that i see as still standing is the HP's, which i am reluctant to loose as i like too keep this char in mellee. will the rogue have enough HPs to last the high level fights?

it all depends on how you use him.

if you progress as a rogue for the sneak attack, your rogue might not have to stand toe to toe that often, as hopefully your sneak attack target will be weakened significantly from your attack, and all you have to do then is finish them off...

I think you will be alright in regards to hit points... if you find your character lacking in that regard, you can always decide to progress more in ranger or fighter to compensate...

also, something to keep in mind is that the rogue is often very good at avoiding fireballs and other such spells when cast in his area if he is in melee, depending on what feats you take for him... i.e. he might be an excellent tank if you want to throw spells into the group he is in, as he stands a good chance of avoiding damage from teh spell, and can then clean up whatever survived the spells...