Are you a feminist?

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:34 pm

Scayde is absolutely right within these circumstances, and I can testify.

Underwater hockey requires divers to hold their breath for long periods of time, and the fact is that women can hold their breath and be as efficient, if not more than men. It's merely the fact that the mens game is much more physical thats the big reason why the divisions are split.

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:18 pm

Originally posted by Chanak
You must not have read that opinion in an earlier post.

Well call me lazy then

Actually I wanted to hear more about your experiences in relation to women in the defence forces. It would of been down right rude to make her carry that piece of machinery, well done

Scayde · Post by **Scayde** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:34 pm

Originally posted by Tamerlane
Well call me lazy then

Actually I wanted to hear more about your experiences in relation to women in the defence forces. It would of been down right rude to make her carry that piece of machinery, well done

One thing you can count on, Chan is ALWAYS a gentleman

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:35 pm

Originally posted by Scayde
One side note, When I learned to SCUBA, my instructor was an old Navy SEAL. We went by their training manual, and their testing. There were NO allowences made for men or women. It actually turns out, women have a rather keen advantage in open water diving, maily because of their higher body fat ratio. If they are in good cardiovascular shape, they keep right up with the guys. Now I am not aware if there any women SEALs, but female navy divers do have to meet the same requirements as the men.

This is what I mean by opportunity, not favors.

Indeed, cowgirl. At this time, females are still not permitted in the Special Forces...the SEALs fall under the auspices of the Special Operations Command (SOCOM). No female SEALs, Rangers, "Green Berets", Deltas, etc....

And btw, I discovered firsthand that women actually enjoy a distinct advantage over men in the cardio-vascular area. Every once in a while, the First Sergeant of my old unit in Washington state would inflict Aerobic exercises upon us during Physical Fitness training. The Aerobics instructor was a female Captain in our unit...she was merciless.

Halfway through the exercises, most of us men were dragging our feet....but most of the female soldiers were doing quite well.

@Tam: Thanks, man.

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:46 pm

Damn I never knew about the advantages that women held over men in diving. I got my SCUBA qualification as well as all my other maritime based ones in high school, where we were segregated into single sex classes. The boys would not of paid any attention if they kept mixed classes for those, I can tell you now

@Scayde
I wasn't doubting Chan for a second

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:19 am

No, no women on the front line for me...
call me gallant

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:44 am

A question then...

...just like pacifism, are there different types/degrees of feminism?

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:19 pm

Originally posted by Scayde
I am curious if the strong prevalence in this country for men to play guitar or drums, and women to play piano or violin have more to do with a cultural bias when parents are choosing an instrument for their child. Most great rock and blues guitarists are in fact male. The chords are very complex and require a long stretch on the neck of the guitar. My sister is a very accomplished guitarist. It is important to note however, that she began playing when she was four. Her hands have developed differently than mine, and in fact her last two fingers are curved somewhat from the years of practicing. I came from a musical family, we had everything from guitars, to drums to saxaphones, and on, and on, but she is the only one to take an interest, and can play them all. As talented as she is, she is still not able to make a guitar sound the way BB King, Kenny Wayne Sheppard, Hendrix, or Muddy Waters can. She sounds more like mellissa Manchester, which isn't bad. (Wish I could But she just can't make the chord progressions the guys can. She is a 'feminist' yet even she will tell you, her hands are just too small.

I know very little about blues guitarr playing (only played the guitarr for 1 year myself) but if it it simply impossible for people with smaller hands to take those chords, and you cannot compensate for it the way any pianist can compensate for Rachmaninov's wide chords (he had gigantic hands, much larger than normal hand size of both sexes), then I would say it is not a gender issue but a hand size issue. That would mean you cannot play a certain blues guitarr style because you have small hands, not because you are a woman. Asian men would have the same problem, as would many other ethic groups that have smaller hands than caucasian or afro-american males. To me, that's no difference from saying anybody cannot be a basket player or a high jumper if you don't have a certain body size.

However @all, I am not sure I understand what you say about more females playing the violin. Isaac Stern, Nigel Kennedy, Gideon Kraemer, Maxim Vengerov...Most world class violin soloists are male (although my personal favorite is a female violinist, Kyung Wha Chung, but many people find her style too technical, lacking emotional expression)

@Mahar: Check my long post at the previous page, where I go through some factions of feminism.

Re SCUBA diving, another sport where females at group level have an advantage due to body construction is climbing, but due to sociocultural norms, it is still a male dominated sport.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Mon Apr 21, 2003 2:32 am

Trying to summarize what we have uncovered through the debate...

Males rule!

Go us!

*hides*

Bloodstalker · Post by **Bloodstalker** » Mon Apr 21, 2003 10:53 am

Just a thought about the instrument thing. I am not sure I buy the belief that males make better guitarists than females on hand size or just because the happen to be female. I think it comes more out of an attitude and approach to the instrument than anything else. I know guys who have been playing for years, and they still don'ty have that quality that sets them apart form everyone else that is playing. In most cases, I have noticed that the better guitarists are the ones with a very aggressive approach to their instrument. In most cases, it seems that males are for the most part naturally more aggresive in their behaviour, and that flows over to their approach to playing.

IMO, there are two types of guitarists, regardless of gender. Type A, which plays from an intellectual standpoint and tybe B who simply says screw it and plays from the gut. Now, I am not saying you shouldn't know your instrument, but I think anytime you don't let yourself just open up and play what you feel you wind up sounding like everyone else.

If you look at some of the guitarists mentioned. people like B.B King, etc, you can look at them and tell that they are totally immersed in their instrument...not that it would matter, Certain people like B.B are beyond imittion. You will never be able to sound like them, even when you play note for note. You may hit them all, but you can't immitate someones feel on any instrument. it's a lot more than knowing what notes to play, it's about flooding your instrument with your emotions, be they aggressive or sensitive, and being able to channel that through an inanimate object and project it out to an audience and have them feel exactly what you are feeling.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 8:24 pm

So if you believed in the inherent right of all people, regardless of sex, religion, nationality, or toenail color, to the same basic opportunities in life, feminist wouldn't be an appropriate term. What would be?

Note: any smartass response will be napalmed by a series of personally-trained gerunds.

Scayde · Post by **Scayde** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 9:04 pm

Originally posted by fable
So if you believed in the inherent right of all people, regardless of sex, religion, nationality, or toenail color, to the same basic opportunities in life, feminist wouldn't be an appropriate term. What would be?

Note: any smartass response will be napalmed by a series of personally-trained gerunds.

Well, I ahve always stated that I was a 'Humanist"...because I don't think 'feminist' is suited to describe my ideals....which are basically what you said above

BTW @ BS....I loved what you said..it makes a lot of sense

ltldrgn1 · Post by **ltldrgn1** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:31 pm

The pianist/composer Robert Schumann, while it is known that he stopped playing the piano due to problems with his right hand, it is not common knowledge that he ruined his hand (by various painful techniques) because he was jealous of his wife's piano playing. She had a much wider finger spread than he, so in an effort to "beat" her, he tried to make his finger spread wider. Foolish indeed.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:44 pm

Originally posted by ltldrgn1
The pianist/composer Robert Schumann, while it is known that he stopped playing the piano due to problems with his right hand, it is not common knowledge that he ruined his hand (by various painful techniques) because he was jealous of his wife's piano playing. She had a much wider finger spread than he, so in an effort to "beat" her, he tried to make his finger spread wider. Foolish indeed.

I think that perhaps the source of that story may be outdated. Schumann had ambitions of being a concert pianist long before he knew the Wieck family, including Clara, whom he married. It was commonly believed that he damaged the flexibility of his right hand by using a mechanical device intended to have the opposite effect. However, research over the last 20 years has discovered that he only gave that out as a reason--the cause was repeated doses of mercury, which were used in the 19th century to treat syphillis. (As another example, consider the letter that the composer/librettist Arrigo Boito sent on to his friend, the composer Giuseppe Verdi, about a mutual acquaintance who had been a conductor, and suddenly stopped: "His sickness is one that is commonly treated with mercury.") Mercury has the side effect of damaging nerves, which accounts tragically for Schumann's loss. In any event, Schumann ultimately died of syphillis after first going insane.

ltldrgn1 · Post by **ltldrgn1** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:55 pm

You're more than likely correct @Fable, I obtained the info. in part from a text last copyrighted 1991. Other parts from odd notes that I had taken around the same period ('91). Thanks for your correction

.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 9:10 am

Originally posted by fable
So if you believed in the inherent right of all people, regardless of sex, religion, nationality, or toenail color, to the same basic opportunities in life, feminist wouldn't be an appropriate term. What would be?

Note: any smartass response will be napalmed by a series of personally-trained gerunds.

I think the term "equal opportunist" sums it up for me. I feel that everyone, by virtue of possessing life, ought not to suffer having doors slammed in their face without having the chance to give it their best shot. I've known quite a large slice of humanity during my lifetime - granted, it is but a drop in the bucket compared to your horrendously long existence, aged one

- and I've seen enough to know that a human being can literally accomplish almost anything that they set their heart and mind to. Generalities do seem to exist, but this speaks more of "rules made to be broken" than it does iron-clad impossibilities, IMO.

I enjoyed the time I spent undergoing martial arts training several years ago (mid 90's). It taught me much about myself, demonstrating that much of the "battle" seems to occur within the mind. An assistant to our instructor, a senior female student who had been studying the form for close to 9 years, illustrated this concept to me perfectly. One rule of the dojo stated "if you hit hard, expect the same in return." During sparring exercises, a prospective student still in his 2 week probationary period decided to discover how "tough" this lady really was. He was quite a large fellow - about 6'3" - and the assistant instructor was a petite woman, no more than 5'4" tall. At some point during the sparring period, he decided to throw his bulk directly upon her in an effort to overwhelm her with his sheer size...

It was quite amusing to watch. In the blink of an eye, she reduced him to a pile of quivering jelly on the floor.

(Sidenote: this student was expelled the following week after trying to brawl with the instructor during sparring. Some people never learn.

He was a rather disrespectful fellow, a big no-no in the Dojo. He earned fame, however, by being the first person to be thrown into the nice wall of mirrors our instructor had installed to assist us in maintaining correct form during training. The man had tried a similar maneuver on the instructor, who promptly tossed him across the room, and into the mirror-wall. Somebody had lovingly scrawled "Kilroy was here" in black marker over the hole in the wall made by the man's shoulder.

)

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 10:07 am

Not to mention, @Chanak, that many martial arts actually turn small body mass into a benefit. I just hope the bruiser learned the appropriate lesson--but the one he probably understood was that he needed to find another dojo.

I would agree that there are some operations, such as breathing underwater or weightlifting, for which a male or female is in most cases more suited by nature. There will always be exceptions, and there will always be individuals who strive to be the exceptions: more power to 'em, I say. But the differences remain in those instances.

For the rest, I don't see the innate psychological differences between the sexes that pop culture professes to see. I don't believe in the garbage espoused by nonsense like "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus," which portray women as the ultimate caregivers and men as secretly craving t-bone steaks 24/7. Studies done on murderers behind bars show that many of them possess an exceptionally low testosterone count, which would argue against the radical feminist's hoary theory that 1) men have more of the stuff, 2) the stuff drives aggression, therefore 3) men are all savages.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 1:22 pm

Gallant Littiz:
Women are just beautyful... skilled, not skilled, who cares! I mean, they're women!
Inherently gentle souls, soft voices, graced looks, passionate lovers!
Touch them only with flowers...

Evil Littiz:
Bah! Women!
All the same.
If you want whatever argument to ever work with one of them, you just have to treat her bad.
Or worse.
And despite what they say, they're *ALL* just perverted nimphos.
Bah! Women!
Anyway, try to have some sex with them now and then, it's fun.

Wise Littiz:
Why the debate at all? Women are like men, they're all troubled souls... like men.

Right-winged Littiz:
I've nothing against women.
I mean, they have their place in our society, so there.
They should do, though, the things they're meant to: work at home, take care of the children, and the like.
Let's face it, they know how to do these things!
While all the rest isn't suited for them. They're generally less skilled and have weaker bodies.
Nice bodies, but weaker.

Left-winged Littiz:.
Hey my dear "Right-winged Littiz", let me tell you one thing.
Did you forget how "weak" you've often been in the past?!?!?!
Nobody ever told you that we're all equal?!? They have "weaker bodies", you say... well they *shouldn't*, ok?!?!
I say, equal opportunities for everyone!!!
Women can do everything you do, and better than you do when they want. You witnessed it, fascist scum!

(Right-winged Littiz: *punches and kicks Left-winged Littiz*)

.
.
Now I know what you think...
You think that I switch constantly between these personalities...
wrong!!
They're all there all together all the time, feeding my insanity and creating a great mess

Somehow though they manage to give me a good picture of the problem, I think, just like rainbow's colors mix together to become white. (I could spare you this one, forgive me

)

This is what I think, I think

Now call me feminist, fascist, sweetheart, misogynist and whatever!

(yes, I'm having a bit of free time on my hands right now...)

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 1:42 pm

Originally posted by fable
Not to mention, @Chanak, that many martial arts actually turn small body mass into a benefit. I just hope the bruiser learned the appropriate lesson--but the one he probably understood was that he needed to find another dojo.

Indeed, I have seen this to be the case. Compact body architecture seems to work for the best in the martial arts. Our instructor himself was compact, and stood about 5'6" tall. Not a person to be messed with, not at all.

More than likely, this guy eventually found a dojo that was more "customer service" oriented...being more interested in tuition money than they are about the honor and integrity of the martial arts.

I thoroughly enjoyed the attitude of my instructor and his assistants. They insisted upon mutual respect, and considered the Dojo to be a special place that all should hold sacred. No foul language was permitted in the Dojo...and the conduct of students was of paramount importantance to the instructor. If you were involved in an outside altercation that was of your own instigation, you would be expelled from his Dojo. They took the honor of the martial arts very seriously. Discipline and self-control were the most important tool to achieving mastery of not just the martial arts, but also of succeeding at life in general. That was his philosophy.

I don't believe in the garbage espoused by nonsense like "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus," which portray women as the ultimate caregivers and men as secretly craving t-bone steaks 24/7. Studies done on murderers behind bars show that many of them possess an exceptionally low testosterone count, which would argue against the radical feminist's hoary theory that 1) men have more of the stuff, 2) the stuff drives aggression, therefore 3) men are all savages.

Gadzooks, excuse me while I wretch violently. *yuck* The mere mention of the title of that book makes me want to lose my lunch.

Of course *all* men aren't savages. Just some. Which reminds me, I'm due for a session of skull-splitting and sword play with the game Enclave. See you later.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 4:44 pm

Originally posted by Littiz
Now I know what you think...
You think that I switch constantly between these personalities...
wrong!!
They're all there all together all the time, feeding my insanity and creating a great mess

@Littiz, you're beginning to frighten me. I'd get a cross, but being a pagan, it probably won't do much.

Maybe I can try hitting you with a willow wand while reading some Thomas Mann out loud. That should be a potent sleep spell. Hell, I can probably cut out the willow wand, and just read the Mann.

So you've heard from Chanak and I regarding "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus." What do you think? Is the idea that women and men come from fundamentally different ways of looking and relating to life sound, or is it, as we subtly suggest, resounding nonsense probably created to field a fortune by a scoundrel?