What do you think?
- Randolph Carter
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What do you think?
I've been running this particular campaign for 4 or 5 years or so. I currently have 2 different parties being run by 2 different groups of players. One group is good, the other evil. What I would like to do is have the two groups meet in an encounter. In my experience (20+ years, all kinds of games) as a gamer, I have heard that this has been tried by other referees, only to fail for one reason or another. Has anyone here tried this kind of thing? If so, what kind of problems did you experience? I know the logistics of getting 13 people together for a game session are a b!tch.
Here are some particulars:
The "Good Party" is made up of more experienced gamers. This group tends to work with more unity. Not because they have good alignments, but because they are more seasoned players. There are 5 characters- Rogue/Fig, Pal, Sor, Rogue/Wiz, Wiz. I estimate that their average level when this shindig will take place will be about 17 or 18. This group also has a much better understanding of the 3E rules than the other.
The "Evil Party" has six characters: Bar/Ran, Ran, Rogue, Fig/Sor, Fig, Cleric. I estimate that they will be around 16th when the groups meet. These players are relatively new to the gaming thing. Some of them have a little experience, but not much. They are starting to work together more, but they still have a couple of unity/leadership issues.
Both groups are working at opposite sides of the same destination. The bad guys are trying to free a powerful evil entity, the good guys know that something bad is happening, but they don't know what yet. I have started feeding the players "teases" in various ways to let them know that something is coming, but I think that I have done a decent job of keeping things under wraps. I have a friend who is helping me put this togther, and he will be there at the Big Event to help administer the encounter.
I have laid groundwork for the two parties to not like each other when they meet, as well as so that they can identify each other as potential enemies when they meet. Yes, I would like to introduce the two groups, say "Initiative," and let the dice fall where they may. That leads to another question. How cool is it to set up a situation in which PCs could wind up hacking other PCs? I know how upsetting it can be to lose a character that has been developing for years. Also, it is a very real possibility that one or both of the campaigns will come to a screaching halt. Both groups have players that go for the throat when it comes to permanenly eliminating their enemies. Both groups will have the levels and the resources to lay some serious whupping to each other. As players, do you find this to be an exciting idea? As DMs am I asking for a night of misery? What do you think?
Thanks for your time,
R.Carter
Here are some particulars:
The "Good Party" is made up of more experienced gamers. This group tends to work with more unity. Not because they have good alignments, but because they are more seasoned players. There are 5 characters- Rogue/Fig, Pal, Sor, Rogue/Wiz, Wiz. I estimate that their average level when this shindig will take place will be about 17 or 18. This group also has a much better understanding of the 3E rules than the other.
The "Evil Party" has six characters: Bar/Ran, Ran, Rogue, Fig/Sor, Fig, Cleric. I estimate that they will be around 16th when the groups meet. These players are relatively new to the gaming thing. Some of them have a little experience, but not much. They are starting to work together more, but they still have a couple of unity/leadership issues.
Both groups are working at opposite sides of the same destination. The bad guys are trying to free a powerful evil entity, the good guys know that something bad is happening, but they don't know what yet. I have started feeding the players "teases" in various ways to let them know that something is coming, but I think that I have done a decent job of keeping things under wraps. I have a friend who is helping me put this togther, and he will be there at the Big Event to help administer the encounter.
I have laid groundwork for the two parties to not like each other when they meet, as well as so that they can identify each other as potential enemies when they meet. Yes, I would like to introduce the two groups, say "Initiative," and let the dice fall where they may. That leads to another question. How cool is it to set up a situation in which PCs could wind up hacking other PCs? I know how upsetting it can be to lose a character that has been developing for years. Also, it is a very real possibility that one or both of the campaigns will come to a screaching halt. Both groups have players that go for the throat when it comes to permanenly eliminating their enemies. Both groups will have the levels and the resources to lay some serious whupping to each other. As players, do you find this to be an exciting idea? As DMs am I asking for a night of misery? What do you think?
Thanks for your time,
R.Carter
- Rob-hin
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I'm excited.
It's a great idea!
But keep in mind, one of the 2 groups will be whiped out completly since there can be only one winning party.
To avoid that, you can have an interfering element just before characters get killed. Perhaps one huge demon or something. He attacks bolth groups, forcing them to work together. And when the beast dies, he splits the 2 parties into 2 different area's of some kind. Making it unable for them to continue their fight and forcing them to pick up the strory again.
Good luck with it!
It's a great idea!
But keep in mind, one of the 2 groups will be whiped out completly since there can be only one winning party.
To avoid that, you can have an interfering element just before characters get killed. Perhaps one huge demon or something. He attacks bolth groups, forcing them to work together. And when the beast dies, he splits the 2 parties into 2 different area's of some kind. Making it unable for them to continue their fight and forcing them to pick up the strory again.
Good luck with it!
Guinness is good for you.
Gives you strength.
Gives you strength.
- lonely wolf
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oh man, that IS really good.
but since I know how hard it is to loose a charecter (i'm experienced both as a player and a DM), insert a great incounter of some sort (like Rob-Hin idea...). you can bring a god that will stop the fight and will bring the dead back to life, or make a "back in time incounter" (that's how i call it...) that will bring the parties back in time... but I think that the best thing to do is to mix the two parties together somehow (if it's possible), that the some of the "good guys" will be with some of the "bad guys" and the same at the second group.
that's it.
if you need more help- we're here for you...
but since I know how hard it is to loose a charecter (i'm experienced both as a player and a DM), insert a great incounter of some sort (like Rob-Hin idea...). you can bring a god that will stop the fight and will bring the dead back to life, or make a "back in time incounter" (that's how i call it...) that will bring the parties back in time... but I think that the best thing to do is to mix the two parties together somehow (if it's possible), that the some of the "good guys" will be with some of the "bad guys" and the same at the second group.
that's it.
if you need more help- we're here for you...
ELVES RULE!!!!!
Hmm... Though I'm not an experienced player or DM of Pen and Paper campaigns, I feel that I can understand and do good storylines.
I'd agree with what Rob-hin and lonely wolf have said, do something to break the impending doom up. Personally, I'd do something with the evil entity, based on either scenario. Obviously one is where the entity is released, the other is where it is confounded.
For the release, I would establish that the evil entity explodes on the scene and is a capricious old fellow, and goes against those that freed him, and sends them away, but in different groups, forcing them to work together. This gives them a mixture of experience of real life players, and allows them to grow as characters too. Experience more to life.
The second scenario is if the entity is confounded, the stopping of the release causes a backlash of energy and does the same as the above, sends them to various areas, but eventually the evil characters want to get back at the entity, and the good want to annihilate its existence. They may eventually have to work together...
Any good? Or does it not fit your idea?
I'd agree with what Rob-hin and lonely wolf have said, do something to break the impending doom up. Personally, I'd do something with the evil entity, based on either scenario. Obviously one is where the entity is released, the other is where it is confounded.
For the release, I would establish that the evil entity explodes on the scene and is a capricious old fellow, and goes against those that freed him, and sends them away, but in different groups, forcing them to work together. This gives them a mixture of experience of real life players, and allows them to grow as characters too. Experience more to life.
The second scenario is if the entity is confounded, the stopping of the release causes a backlash of energy and does the same as the above, sends them to various areas, but eventually the evil characters want to get back at the entity, and the good want to annihilate its existence. They may eventually have to work together...
Any good? Or does it not fit your idea?
Perverteer Paladin
- Randolph Carter
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Thanks for your feedback folks.
Nippy: I am not exactly sure of what my idea is yet, but this is kind of my motivation. I am in the 20+ club for playing and DMing and am looking for the Meatball on top of my Spaghetti. Also, there has been a lot of effort put into this campaign by a lot of different people. I'd like their efforts to be memorialized in some way. No matter if they are on the "winning" or the "losing" side, this is something that the Players will take to whatever gaming table they go to.
I would also like to enjoy an encounter as a spectator for a change. I mean as DMs, we seldom have the chance to just sit and let the players handle a situation mostly by themselves. I'd like to keep the initiative order and make whatever calls that need to be made.
I think that while one or both games could come to an end, the players in each group are resourceful enough to make that the worst case scenario only. One thing I expect is to be surprised. While they may actually work together when they meet, that seems very unlikely to me at this point in time. As the Shindig is still a few months away- maybe as far out as September, this is requiring mucho prep- that could change. The aforementioned groundwork included sowing seeds of animosity.
There is a mechanic that could unify the parties in the form of a modified Solar who will appear and begin laying down some carnage should the cell door of the evil one be tampered with. Not sure how to do that. Will the Solar (a gooder) hammer the evil folks first, or stick with its orders and whack all who try to free the Once-Lich regardless of alignment, from toughest to weakest? Maybe something else?
Thanks again,
R.Carter
Nippy: I am not exactly sure of what my idea is yet, but this is kind of my motivation. I am in the 20+ club for playing and DMing and am looking for the Meatball on top of my Spaghetti. Also, there has been a lot of effort put into this campaign by a lot of different people. I'd like their efforts to be memorialized in some way. No matter if they are on the "winning" or the "losing" side, this is something that the Players will take to whatever gaming table they go to.
I would also like to enjoy an encounter as a spectator for a change. I mean as DMs, we seldom have the chance to just sit and let the players handle a situation mostly by themselves. I'd like to keep the initiative order and make whatever calls that need to be made.
I think that while one or both games could come to an end, the players in each group are resourceful enough to make that the worst case scenario only. One thing I expect is to be surprised. While they may actually work together when they meet, that seems very unlikely to me at this point in time. As the Shindig is still a few months away- maybe as far out as September, this is requiring mucho prep- that could change. The aforementioned groundwork included sowing seeds of animosity.
There is a mechanic that could unify the parties in the form of a modified Solar who will appear and begin laying down some carnage should the cell door of the evil one be tampered with. Not sure how to do that. Will the Solar (a gooder) hammer the evil folks first, or stick with its orders and whack all who try to free the Once-Lich regardless of alignment, from toughest to weakest? Maybe something else?
Thanks again,
R.Carter
Do you want some more input? Can I ask WHO imprisoned the Once-Lich? A God? Cleric of someone? I imagine if we get an idea of what actually happened, we can tailor the specifics to that situation. For instance, a Paladin God may consider that only the Evil people are worthwhile stopping, whilst a Neutral God may decide that an example must be set...
Perverteer Paladin
- Randolph Carter
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OK. At the risk of revealing all to my players, here is the deal. Apologies if this becomes too long. The Once-Lich is actually an NPC from a friends (who no longer plays) game. My PC in that game was part of a party that was duped into returning an extremely power lich to life, from undeath. This set into motion a chain of events that, among other things, elevated the now Once-Lich's power levels to the near Divine. This friend also helped lay much of the foundation for the entire campaign. We shared a few NPCs between our games.
Once "K" (what we'll call the Once-Lich) was freed, she went on a campaign to finish becoming a God. This is where she gets invovled with my game. Her first stop was the world that my Evil Party is currently on. The world itself is just a backdrop for a heavily modified module series I decided to run. This world was selected because K thought it was the best choice for getting her worshiper base started. She did. She then moved to the world of my campaign in order to attempt to increase her power base. There are 3 major factions in the game, all of which were in a state of regrouping from a costly conflict involving all of them when K made her move. K struck quietly at first, seizing control of a freestanding portal to the Negative Plane. Her forces made on overt attempt to seize a similar portal to the Positive Plane, which forced one of the factions (an extremely powerful cabal of magicians with ties to Dragonkind) to reunite and fight her back. After much hassle, the Cabal managed to imprison her in a cell that exists both in the Prime, and the Pos Plane.
For reasons that are to weird to try to explain right now, Orcus is involved with thrying to thwart the Evil Party. I am planning for this to last for only as long as the K thread plays.
So there you go. A group of master spellslingers paid dearly to keep K from divinity, and to save their world. Keep in mind that this cabal is not necessarily good or evil. They have their motivations to be sure. They are more Lawful than Chaotic, probably more Neutral than anything else when it comes to affairs outside of their cabal. Of the other two factions, one would like to K released to help cause a distraction for their plans. They view K as potentially useful, but to be eliminated when her usefulness is over. The other faction would like K to stay right where she is.
I think that it should be noted that this whole thing with the groups meeting and K being present is just a side bar from the main campaign.
Hope this helps. And Thanks Again,
R.Carter
Once "K" (what we'll call the Once-Lich) was freed, she went on a campaign to finish becoming a God. This is where she gets invovled with my game. Her first stop was the world that my Evil Party is currently on. The world itself is just a backdrop for a heavily modified module series I decided to run. This world was selected because K thought it was the best choice for getting her worshiper base started. She did. She then moved to the world of my campaign in order to attempt to increase her power base. There are 3 major factions in the game, all of which were in a state of regrouping from a costly conflict involving all of them when K made her move. K struck quietly at first, seizing control of a freestanding portal to the Negative Plane. Her forces made on overt attempt to seize a similar portal to the Positive Plane, which forced one of the factions (an extremely powerful cabal of magicians with ties to Dragonkind) to reunite and fight her back. After much hassle, the Cabal managed to imprison her in a cell that exists both in the Prime, and the Pos Plane.
For reasons that are to weird to try to explain right now, Orcus is involved with thrying to thwart the Evil Party. I am planning for this to last for only as long as the K thread plays.
So there you go. A group of master spellslingers paid dearly to keep K from divinity, and to save their world. Keep in mind that this cabal is not necessarily good or evil. They have their motivations to be sure. They are more Lawful than Chaotic, probably more Neutral than anything else when it comes to affairs outside of their cabal. Of the other two factions, one would like to K released to help cause a distraction for their plans. They view K as potentially useful, but to be eliminated when her usefulness is over. The other faction would like K to stay right where she is.
I think that it should be noted that this whole thing with the groups meeting and K being present is just a side bar from the main campaign.
Hope this helps. And Thanks Again,
R.Carter
Can I ask who Orcus is?
I get the feeling that the Lawful Neutral Magi should be a group that are involved in this - they've already played a relatively large part, you've established them as part of the legend lore. This is maybe an opening for you here. Sketching out a rough plot line, here you go:
The LN Magi are interested in keeping "K" under wraps. They want to stop her release into the world, and the more evil faction want to release her to try and get into some evil business. Who can blame them? Its their job. Therefore, in the build up to the business. Arthan, a canny Rogue working on behalf of the evil organisation, approaches the evil party, offering information to them, claiming that his employer is interested in a certain artifact within the holding cells of "K". If I were the evil party, I would be wary of accepting the offer. Now you drop them the lure. Arthan offers gold, and further sponsorship of the group, if they assist in the evil organisations further endeavours, maybe they need some muscle for an action, or they might need some equipment or transportation, whatever you feel would attract them to the offer.
Now this is where things get to the crux of the matter. Arthan is a talented double agent working for the LN Magi, he is a part of a group interested in making sure that "K" is kept under lock and key, and he is also aware of the good groups intention to follow the evil group and stop them. He must persuade them that the issue is vital enough that they work with the Magi group to make sure that she's not released.
Arthan can do nothing but continue his job with the evil organisation and guide the evil group towards "K" but maybe he's slowing them down or trying to delay them enough so the good group can catch up.
It all comes to a head when they reach "K's" cell. The evil group must be enough ahead of the good group to begin the summoning or ritual to return "K". The good group arrive just to late to stop, or just in time, depending on preference, but the LN Magi group see a major issue with the attempted summoning, they felt that it was going to come to the death, and so despatched a Dragon (with all due respect) to the cells, to attempt to stop the return, for the good of the many. The Dragon was no the best choice however, and it decides, in all its wisdom that the entire cavern must fall around the peoples heads. Now no one wants this, let alone Arthan, so he suggests the group work together, or die in the cells.
I think this is where I'll stop because you would need to decide how best to structure the ending, depending on the choices, but I think it does funnel them towards an epic encounter and a true challenge to be a fitting finale.
Is this any help to you?
I get the feeling that the Lawful Neutral Magi should be a group that are involved in this - they've already played a relatively large part, you've established them as part of the legend lore. This is maybe an opening for you here. Sketching out a rough plot line, here you go:
The LN Magi are interested in keeping "K" under wraps. They want to stop her release into the world, and the more evil faction want to release her to try and get into some evil business. Who can blame them? Its their job. Therefore, in the build up to the business. Arthan, a canny Rogue working on behalf of the evil organisation, approaches the evil party, offering information to them, claiming that his employer is interested in a certain artifact within the holding cells of "K". If I were the evil party, I would be wary of accepting the offer. Now you drop them the lure. Arthan offers gold, and further sponsorship of the group, if they assist in the evil organisations further endeavours, maybe they need some muscle for an action, or they might need some equipment or transportation, whatever you feel would attract them to the offer.
Now this is where things get to the crux of the matter. Arthan is a talented double agent working for the LN Magi, he is a part of a group interested in making sure that "K" is kept under lock and key, and he is also aware of the good groups intention to follow the evil group and stop them. He must persuade them that the issue is vital enough that they work with the Magi group to make sure that she's not released.
Arthan can do nothing but continue his job with the evil organisation and guide the evil group towards "K" but maybe he's slowing them down or trying to delay them enough so the good group can catch up.
It all comes to a head when they reach "K's" cell. The evil group must be enough ahead of the good group to begin the summoning or ritual to return "K". The good group arrive just to late to stop, or just in time, depending on preference, but the LN Magi group see a major issue with the attempted summoning, they felt that it was going to come to the death, and so despatched a Dragon (with all due respect) to the cells, to attempt to stop the return, for the good of the many. The Dragon was no the best choice however, and it decides, in all its wisdom that the entire cavern must fall around the peoples heads. Now no one wants this, let alone Arthan, so he suggests the group work together, or die in the cells.
I think this is where I'll stop because you would need to decide how best to structure the ending, depending on the choices, but I think it does funnel them towards an epic encounter and a true challenge to be a fitting finale.
Is this any help to you?
Perverteer Paladin
- Randolph Carter
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Wow Nippy, you realy don't have much PnP exp! Orcus is an old school Uberbaddie. Demon Lord of the Undead. He swings a nasty wand that tends to obliterate most living things that it may touch.
I appreciate your efforts, but I have already hooked both parties, and they are on their ways to their destinies. The Evil faction are indeed the sponsors of the bad guys. A group vying for a place amongst the powers that be are guiding the gooders.
As for the parties just whacking each other, I've learned in my years of gaming that the one thing that a DM can count on from his or her players is that they will do the something that you didn't expect. While I think that they will start dishing damage to each other on "Inish," I really have no clue as to what they may do. That is what I want to see most. How they ultimately decide how to handle each other.
What Id' really like some feedback on is: is it a good idea to promote PCs whacking other PCs? Also, is it a good idea to essentially relinquish control of the Campaign to a bunch of players and their dice? One of the most powerful tools in the DMs box is the ability to fudge the dice. I fear that this will be very difficult to do in a way that the parties will go for or that I will feel good about. Hey, now that I think about it, I am not sure if I like the idea of my players having such a degree of control on the Campaign itself. I'll have to think about that.
Thanks,
R.Carter
I appreciate your efforts, but I have already hooked both parties, and they are on their ways to their destinies. The Evil faction are indeed the sponsors of the bad guys. A group vying for a place amongst the powers that be are guiding the gooders.
As for the parties just whacking each other, I've learned in my years of gaming that the one thing that a DM can count on from his or her players is that they will do the something that you didn't expect. While I think that they will start dishing damage to each other on "Inish," I really have no clue as to what they may do. That is what I want to see most. How they ultimately decide how to handle each other.
What Id' really like some feedback on is: is it a good idea to promote PCs whacking other PCs? Also, is it a good idea to essentially relinquish control of the Campaign to a bunch of players and their dice? One of the most powerful tools in the DMs box is the ability to fudge the dice. I fear that this will be very difficult to do in a way that the parties will go for or that I will feel good about. Hey, now that I think about it, I am not sure if I like the idea of my players having such a degree of control on the Campaign itself. I'll have to think about that.
Thanks,
R.Carter
Hehe, my Paladin training didn't cover much Demon spawn...
To be honest, you know your players better than we do. So you'll know what they'll do and how they'll react to the situation you give them, and the fact that they now have greater control over it. Like you said, you're reaching the end of your campaign, you've guided them, lead them, almost coddled them. Now it's the time for the players to get some control of the situation...
In terms of PC's whacking PC's, why not? Maybe it's better than being whacked by an anyomonous character, maybe a feud can be created when/if a PC is Ressurrected?
To be honest, you know your players better than we do. So you'll know what they'll do and how they'll react to the situation you give them, and the fact that they now have greater control over it. Like you said, you're reaching the end of your campaign, you've guided them, lead them, almost coddled them. Now it's the time for the players to get some control of the situation...
In terms of PC's whacking PC's, why not? Maybe it's better than being whacked by an anyomonous character, maybe a feud can be created when/if a PC is Ressurrected?
Perverteer Paladin
- Ned Flanders
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Nice thread and a cool story.
In my years of running campaigns, characters who continued to run a life of adventuring rarely got past the 10th level so most of my players usually looked to retirement or koosh jobs once in excess of 12th level.
That said, perhaps you should talk to the two groups about retiring the characters at the culmination of the current adventure. Start up something new, pick up and explore some side plots that may have developed with new PC's. My personal feeling was that DMing groups in the levels of 4-7 was always the most fun and required the most resourcefulness. Reputation went a long way in my campaigns so PC's were usually eager to take on tougher odds. By the time characters reach such a high level as the mid teens, most parties can frag anything that stands in their way.
Anyway, if the quorum decides it would be best to retire than let them have at each other. It really shouldn't matter if the characters live or die. I do like the idea of an outside interference causing havoc. That is, not necessarily forcing the two groups to work together but at least diverting their focus from destroying the other. For instance, the evil group realizes that freeing "K" might not have been such a good idea, etc...
If the encounter works this way, you can bet some on both sides will lose their lives and an battle this epic can lay down the foundation for future campaigns. Such survivors could be leaders or key NPCs (they're retired, remember ) for whichever direction you choose to head in.
I say, let 'em have at each other. I've done similar before. Some players liked it, some disliked, others bitter by a power word kill in round 1. C'est la vie.
In my years of running campaigns, characters who continued to run a life of adventuring rarely got past the 10th level so most of my players usually looked to retirement or koosh jobs once in excess of 12th level.
That said, perhaps you should talk to the two groups about retiring the characters at the culmination of the current adventure. Start up something new, pick up and explore some side plots that may have developed with new PC's. My personal feeling was that DMing groups in the levels of 4-7 was always the most fun and required the most resourcefulness. Reputation went a long way in my campaigns so PC's were usually eager to take on tougher odds. By the time characters reach such a high level as the mid teens, most parties can frag anything that stands in their way.
Anyway, if the quorum decides it would be best to retire than let them have at each other. It really shouldn't matter if the characters live or die. I do like the idea of an outside interference causing havoc. That is, not necessarily forcing the two groups to work together but at least diverting their focus from destroying the other. For instance, the evil group realizes that freeing "K" might not have been such a good idea, etc...
If the encounter works this way, you can bet some on both sides will lose their lives and an battle this epic can lay down the foundation for future campaigns. Such survivors could be leaders or key NPCs (they're retired, remember ) for whichever direction you choose to head in.
I say, let 'em have at each other. I've done similar before. Some players liked it, some disliked, others bitter by a power word kill in round 1. C'est la vie.
Crush enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the women.
- Randolph Carter
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Next Question
Ned, you are absolutely on target with PCs peaking powerwise in their mid teens. This campaign was originally an experiment to see if there could be a viable game from level 1 to level 20. So far so good, I think. The groups have an understanding that if something gets out of hand, it could get adjusted without warning.
I guess the next question is: Is D+D3E viable from level 1 to level 20? Our experiment started under 2nd Ed rules, and the conversion was used to make some fundamental changes in some of the PCs, so our joint has been wrecked.
I have a sneaking suspicion that it is still playable even past 20 as long as you steer clear of that silly Epic Thing that they tried to pass off as a handbook. The trick is to not let the gear take control of your game. At least I think so...
Thanks,
R.Carter
Ned, you are absolutely on target with PCs peaking powerwise in their mid teens. This campaign was originally an experiment to see if there could be a viable game from level 1 to level 20. So far so good, I think. The groups have an understanding that if something gets out of hand, it could get adjusted without warning.
I guess the next question is: Is D+D3E viable from level 1 to level 20? Our experiment started under 2nd Ed rules, and the conversion was used to make some fundamental changes in some of the PCs, so our joint has been wrecked.
I have a sneaking suspicion that it is still playable even past 20 as long as you steer clear of that silly Epic Thing that they tried to pass off as a handbook. The trick is to not let the gear take control of your game. At least I think so...
Thanks,
R.Carter