But that particular romance would seem to be quite an undertaking, if it were to be brought off decently. Of all the BG2 party potentials, Edwin is the most self-centered, unrealistic and immature. He survives interactions with the world purely on the basis of his considerable professional skill (aided by his family amulet) and his amoral willingness to adjust to the demands of the moment. Lust is clearly a component of his character, judging from his dialogs, but romance would seem to demand a major upheaval in his personality. Anybody else have thoughts on this?
Edwin romance mod?
- fable
- Posts: 30676
- Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:00 pm
- Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
- Contact:
Edwin romance mod?
By the Gods, I was shocked!
I was doing a search on something else BG2-related, and typed in "Edwin" and "BG2" on Google. One of the entries for the Forgotten Wars Studios Forums that linked here listed on Google the following: "Welcome to the Edwin Odesseiron Romance project." I didn't pursue the matter any further, since the link to the project, if it still exists, wasn't clear from the forum page.
But that particular romance would seem to be quite an undertaking, if it were to be brought off decently. Of all the BG2 party potentials, Edwin is the most self-centered, unrealistic and immature. He survives interactions with the world purely on the basis of his considerable professional skill (aided by his family amulet) and his amoral willingness to adjust to the demands of the moment. Lust is clearly a component of his character, judging from his dialogs, but romance would seem to demand a major upheaval in his personality. Anybody else have thoughts on this?
But that particular romance would seem to be quite an undertaking, if it were to be brought off decently. Of all the BG2 party potentials, Edwin is the most self-centered, unrealistic and immature. He survives interactions with the world purely on the basis of his considerable professional skill (aided by his family amulet) and his amoral willingness to adjust to the demands of the moment. Lust is clearly a component of his character, judging from his dialogs, but romance would seem to demand a major upheaval in his personality. Anybody else have thoughts on this?
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
Much of the Edwin Romance content was posted on the Attic board long ago. I browsed some of it.
I agree with basically everything you've said here. However, the Edwin Romance author sees Edwin as charming, funny, and "rascally" but not really evil.
The proof shall be in the tasting, but from all previews and indications I think I'll be wondering where Edwin went.
Oh, and the romance doesn't have a home page as such yet that I'm aware of but it does have a forum on Studios where people can discuss it.
I agree with basically everything you've said here. However, the Edwin Romance author sees Edwin as charming, funny, and "rascally" but not really evil.
The proof shall be in the tasting, but from all previews and indications I think I'll be wondering where Edwin went.
Oh, and the romance doesn't have a home page as such yet that I'm aware of but it does have a forum on Studios where people can discuss it.
"t's a testament to the determined RPG fraternity that a number of Baldur's Gate II mods have been successfully produced. The best can be found at pocketplane.net." - PC Gamer UK
- UserUnfriendly
- Posts: 4109
- Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2001 10:00 pm
- Location: Sluggy Zone
- Contact:
well, i have been enjoying and avidly reading laufey's
in the cards
cards reshuffled
for some months now..I really really like the fanfic, and laufey and dorotea have practically rewritten edwin, into someone you can genuinely like and interact with...it is a significant undertaking, and I am very much looking foward to the mod...
I believe it is in advanced beta, most of soa has been written and coded, I hope to see it soon...I personally am seriously looking foward to it, but i think it seriously helps to read the fanfic in the attic by laufey...
It may not be true to the edwin in the game, but the new edwin created by laufey and dorotea is far more interesting, and quite well done...
hey, I like the mod concept enough to change my avatar!!!
in the cards
cards reshuffled
for some months now..I really really like the fanfic, and laufey and dorotea have practically rewritten edwin, into someone you can genuinely like and interact with...it is a significant undertaking, and I am very much looking foward to the mod...
I believe it is in advanced beta, most of soa has been written and coded, I hope to see it soon...I personally am seriously looking foward to it, but i think it seriously helps to read the fanfic in the attic by laufey...
It may not be true to the edwin in the game, but the new edwin created by laufey and dorotea is far more interesting, and quite well done...
hey, I like the mod concept enough to change my avatar!!!
They call me Darth...
Darth Gizka!
Muwahahahahhahahha!!!
Darth Gizka!
Muwahahahahhahahha!!!
I can't see the, uh, "orginal" Edwin being (or becoming) a true romantic. But I can see him becoming desperately, self-destructively infatuated with the PC. He would remain self-centered, as always, but his world would revolve around his longing and misery, and of course, he would be too selfish and too immature to figure out how to find true happiness. I figure plenty of people who say they "like" Edwin would enjoy watching him be humiliated yet again. How does that sound for a MOD? 
- fable
- Posts: 30676
- Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:00 pm
- Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
- Contact:
I don't think I could take any enjoyment from watching any fictional character, however unpleasant, get trodden underfoot. I realize this is a popular genre in the UK; in books, films, television shows, etc; and when you really, truly read Cervantes' Don Quixote, you realize it's exactly the same sort of thing, a kind of literary bear-baiting. Maybe I'm just an effete modern, but that kind of thing always gave me the shudders. Reality's deck is stacked enough against us all, without envisioning some poor fool out of thin air who has things even worse.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. Sorry.
Like you, Fable, I believe that making Edwin the subject of a romance MOD sounds like a bad idea. At the very least, it would necessitate some significant changes to his character. Also, I personally do not take any pleasure in the humiliation of my party members, at least not the ones I like. Oh, okay, I'll admit it--I laugh whenever Edwin is humiliated, but that's mainly because I don't like him and I think he has it coming to him.
I wasn't seriously suggesting that someone should make an "unrequited love" MOD for Edwin. My point was that I couldn't see a romance happening with Edwin any other way, but the sadists out there might actually enjoy it.
But to respond to the point you made about "envisioning some poor fool out of thin air who has things even worse", I don't think that fictional characters really have things any worse than a lot of real people. (I've seen the results of obsessive love up-close.) And I don't think that stories about fictional people who have difficulty coping with life are a bad thing; on the contrary, some of them are very interesting to read because they are interesting character studies and because a lot of people can relate to them on some level. Two classics that spring to mind are "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" by James Joyce and "Swann in Love" by Marcel Proust. The lead characters in both of them spend years of their lives in misery--spelled out in exquisite, if bewildering, detail--while their character flaws and shortcomings are made quite plain. A modern science fiction novel, "Triton" by Samuel Delany, also comes to mind. It's about a selfish man who screws up his own life because he just "doesn't get it". The point of such novels is not to reap enjoyment from the main characters' suffering, but to attempt to understand their humanity.
Now that I think about it, a romance with Edwin might be interesting. But it would definitely be a melancholy affair, at least until Edwin, like Swann, finally achieved inner peace. In the meantime, there could be cathartic moments like the scene with the Bird Girl. The truth is, we don't know much about Edwin's inner life beneath his rude exterior. Perhaps if he caught a glimpse of innocent beauty at just the right moment, he might appreciate it for the first time in his life, and once he desired it, he might realize that it had always been accessible to him if only he could appreciate it. Yes, even Edwin could change. In my own real life experience, I know that sometimes when life puts you through the ringer, you can grow as a person as a result of it. You might begin to understand your connection to the rest of humanity a little better, and you might become more sensitive to the feelings and experiences of others. Or you might discover something important about yourself, such as, "All the Slayer really wants is a sandwich." (Just kidding.)
No, what I actually had in mind was Swann's realization at the end of the book that Odette did not reject him as a person. (He heard from a mutual acquaintance that Odette had spoken fondly of him.) When he heard that, he finally found peace, and he finally let go of her. He didn't lose his habit of trying to control every interaction (which is one of the things that had caused him so much trouble, because it prevented him from understanding and accepting reality), but at least he realized that he didn't really want Odette, after all, which brought him a little closer to understanding what he DID want out of life. That might not sound like an escpecially dramatic climax, but in context, it caps the story very nicely. And of course, the way that Proust presents it is a work of art.
Could all that be done with a character like Edwin in a game like BG2? I doubt it. I'm too busy killing monsters.
But I do enjoy trying to think more creatively about my characters, so I'm all in favor of MODs if someone wants to accept the challenge.
But to respond to the point you made about "envisioning some poor fool out of thin air who has things even worse", I don't think that fictional characters really have things any worse than a lot of real people. (I've seen the results of obsessive love up-close.) And I don't think that stories about fictional people who have difficulty coping with life are a bad thing; on the contrary, some of them are very interesting to read because they are interesting character studies and because a lot of people can relate to them on some level. Two classics that spring to mind are "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" by James Joyce and "Swann in Love" by Marcel Proust. The lead characters in both of them spend years of their lives in misery--spelled out in exquisite, if bewildering, detail--while their character flaws and shortcomings are made quite plain. A modern science fiction novel, "Triton" by Samuel Delany, also comes to mind. It's about a selfish man who screws up his own life because he just "doesn't get it". The point of such novels is not to reap enjoyment from the main characters' suffering, but to attempt to understand their humanity.
Now that I think about it, a romance with Edwin might be interesting. But it would definitely be a melancholy affair, at least until Edwin, like Swann, finally achieved inner peace. In the meantime, there could be cathartic moments like the scene with the Bird Girl. The truth is, we don't know much about Edwin's inner life beneath his rude exterior. Perhaps if he caught a glimpse of innocent beauty at just the right moment, he might appreciate it for the first time in his life, and once he desired it, he might realize that it had always been accessible to him if only he could appreciate it. Yes, even Edwin could change. In my own real life experience, I know that sometimes when life puts you through the ringer, you can grow as a person as a result of it. You might begin to understand your connection to the rest of humanity a little better, and you might become more sensitive to the feelings and experiences of others. Or you might discover something important about yourself, such as, "All the Slayer really wants is a sandwich." (Just kidding.)
Could all that be done with a character like Edwin in a game like BG2? I doubt it. I'm too busy killing monsters.
- fable
- Posts: 30676
- Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:00 pm
- Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
- Contact:
In turn, I think I need to offer a bit of an apology for lacking clarity in my earlier remarks. I didn't mean that any stories about fictional characters coping with personal tragedies are something I shun. There are many that remain among my favorite works, often for the resilience they show in the human spirit--or even the insight they provide into those who cannot respond positively to change.Originally posted by VonDondu
But to respond to the point you made about "envisioning some poor fool out of thin air who has things even worse", I don't think that fictional characters really have things any worse than a lot of real people. (I've seen the results of obsessive love up-close.) And I don't think that stories about fictional people who have difficulty coping with life are a bad thing; on the contrary, some of them are very interesting to read because they are interesting character studies and because a lot of people can relate to them on some level.
No, I was reserving my censure for the fictional sub-genre that treats the repeated tragedies weighing on a given individual *as comedy.* I first became aware of this roughly thirty years ago, watching a comedy short from roughly 1940, in Britain. The director/actor was visiting his dentist, and I distinctly remember the sequence where the dentist was saying, "This is going to hurt just a bit," followed by "This is going to hurt somewhat," followed by "This is going to really hurt a lot." That in itself might be amusing, if you didn't see the dentist's drills moving directly at you, and hear the patient hollering in realistic agony. The British evidently found this a tremendous delight. The Dutch theater that was packed when I saw it didn't respond with a single chuckle, and the Dutch are a very emotive bunch.
Since then, I've encountered many examples of this kind of "kick 'em repeatedly, watch 'em fall, and laugh" genre in the British literary arts. The Man Booker Prize, one of the most prestigious British literary awards, sometimes goes to authors who write this kind of thing. There are plays (like the 'orrible There's a Girl in My Soup) and supposedly comic television series about an average man who gets beaten down into the ground by modern society, and left out to wither away. "Black comedy," they call it. As a rule, I don't; I consider black comedy the courage of those who give the finger to bad fortune when it comes. The kind of comedy I dislike intensely is more like kicking a kitten, then laughing as it curls into a foetal position.
That's what I thought you were referring to above, when I reacted negatively.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
The more I think about it, the more I think an Edwin MOD would be worthwhile. A Romance MOD? I don't know. An Unrequited Love MOD? It might be interesting. A MOD that simply gives him a lot more dialogue and puts him in interesting interpersonal situations? I think that has a lot of potential.
I watched the movie My Fair Lady this weekend, and it occurred to me that Edwin is a lot like Henry Higgins in some respects. They're both rude, they don't care about other people's feelings, all they care about is their work, and they think they're invulnerable because their minds are so logical, etc. Higgins is shocked when he discovers how emotionally vulnerable he really is, and he's stumped when he finds that he cannot control his own emotions. Affection is the natural product of continued contact with other people, but that is something that people like Higgins--and Edwin--cannot understand. Higgins turns into a wreck when Liza leaves his house. I can picture Edwin reacting the same way if he were kicked out of the party by a woman he admired and depended on, whether he was aware of his own feelings or not. In My Fair Lady, Higgins undergoes a certain amount of internal transformation, but he's too stubborn to change outwardly. I guess we're supposed to think his internal changes will make a difference, but the movie ends a bit abruptly, so it's difficult to tell. Since Higgins is a comical character, I guess it doesn't matter much, anyway, since we don't take him or the movie all that seriously. But I think if we explored similar issues with Edwin, we might reach some interesting conclusions.
In Shadows of Amn, the PC would never be like Liza Doolittle, so we can't apply the Pygmalian theme to Edwin like the one that My Fair Lady is based on. (A man creates an artificial woman; he loves her as a father would love a child; she thinks he's the most important person in the world and depends on him; he doesn't think she's a complete person, and he doesn't treat her as an equal; his experiment won't be a complete success unless she grows up and becomes an independent person; when she does grow up, she falls in love with someone else, which makes him feel abandoned, rejected, and betrayed; and he can either kill her, kill himself, or get used to it. Or make all sorts of empty promises to get her back, I suppose.) But I think that Edwin could still undergo a similar transformation if he fell in love with someone who wouldn't put up with his crap. He would have to recognize the "otherness" of other people, and that would make him feel lonely for the first time in his life. He would have to come to grips with feelings he never thought he could have. He would have to learn how to negotiate and compromise and get along with other people if he wanted to be happy and fulfilled. The process would be painful (although it could be partially comical, just like Higgins's experience), but it could have a happy ending. I didn't like the ending to My Fair Lady (Liza returned to Higgins after declaring her independence, just to give the movie a happy ending, I suppose). But it would really be something if someone like Edwin could win the girl. And some of the dialogues I can imagine (with Viconia, for instance) could be very entertaining.
"Viconia, you're a woman. Tell me, why do women act the way they do?"
"What makes you think I would answer such a stupid question from a male?"
"Don't change the subject! I know everything there is to know about being a male (I could show her a thing or two). But women...I must admit I am experiencing some confusion (although that is hard to believe)."
"Perhaps if you became a woman, you might begin to understand. But it is foolish to speak of such unlikely things."
"What nonsense is this? Of course it is unlikely for me to become a woman!"
"No, I mean that it's unlikely you would understand women even if you were a woman. You don't even understand men, because you cannot see into your own heart."
"What do you mean by that?"
"I am finished talking to you, stupid male."
"Bah! (Women are so difficult to deal with.)"
Why would a woman find someone like Edwin attractive? Well, someone like Liza Doolittle might look up to him or seek his validation if her sense of self-worth became dependent on him. If he was the only person in the world who could help her achieve her objectives, he would be very important to her. But again, I don't think that applies to a PC. From my perspective, my primary interest in installing an Edwin MOD (one which was true to Edwin's character) wouldn't be to romance him, but to study his character. Higgins is an interesting character, and a lot of people seem to like Edwin. At the very least, Edwin might make an interesting conversational foil, if not someone I'd ever want to romance.
Let's think about the reality of an adventuring party. A small group of characters spend all of their time together in close proximity, depending on each other for survival, following a common leader, getting on each other's nerves, sharing triumphs and other special moments with each other, and becoming intimately familiar. They are bound to leave a mark on each other, and they might develop special bonds. Edwin has a strong character (even if he is not immediately likeable) and a strong will. If he fell in love, I imagine he would not get over it quickly, and given his tendency to be in control, I imagine he would be persistent and try his best to solve his problems one way or another. I think he would always remain self-centered, egotistical, and rude, but even men like him can find someone to marry in the real world. Who knows what might happen if he met the right woman?
He might even be more attractive than Anomen.
I watched the movie My Fair Lady this weekend, and it occurred to me that Edwin is a lot like Henry Higgins in some respects. They're both rude, they don't care about other people's feelings, all they care about is their work, and they think they're invulnerable because their minds are so logical, etc. Higgins is shocked when he discovers how emotionally vulnerable he really is, and he's stumped when he finds that he cannot control his own emotions. Affection is the natural product of continued contact with other people, but that is something that people like Higgins--and Edwin--cannot understand. Higgins turns into a wreck when Liza leaves his house. I can picture Edwin reacting the same way if he were kicked out of the party by a woman he admired and depended on, whether he was aware of his own feelings or not. In My Fair Lady, Higgins undergoes a certain amount of internal transformation, but he's too stubborn to change outwardly. I guess we're supposed to think his internal changes will make a difference, but the movie ends a bit abruptly, so it's difficult to tell. Since Higgins is a comical character, I guess it doesn't matter much, anyway, since we don't take him or the movie all that seriously. But I think if we explored similar issues with Edwin, we might reach some interesting conclusions.
In Shadows of Amn, the PC would never be like Liza Doolittle, so we can't apply the Pygmalian theme to Edwin like the one that My Fair Lady is based on. (A man creates an artificial woman; he loves her as a father would love a child; she thinks he's the most important person in the world and depends on him; he doesn't think she's a complete person, and he doesn't treat her as an equal; his experiment won't be a complete success unless she grows up and becomes an independent person; when she does grow up, she falls in love with someone else, which makes him feel abandoned, rejected, and betrayed; and he can either kill her, kill himself, or get used to it. Or make all sorts of empty promises to get her back, I suppose.) But I think that Edwin could still undergo a similar transformation if he fell in love with someone who wouldn't put up with his crap. He would have to recognize the "otherness" of other people, and that would make him feel lonely for the first time in his life. He would have to come to grips with feelings he never thought he could have. He would have to learn how to negotiate and compromise and get along with other people if he wanted to be happy and fulfilled. The process would be painful (although it could be partially comical, just like Higgins's experience), but it could have a happy ending. I didn't like the ending to My Fair Lady (Liza returned to Higgins after declaring her independence, just to give the movie a happy ending, I suppose). But it would really be something if someone like Edwin could win the girl. And some of the dialogues I can imagine (with Viconia, for instance) could be very entertaining.
"Viconia, you're a woman. Tell me, why do women act the way they do?"
"What makes you think I would answer such a stupid question from a male?"
"Don't change the subject! I know everything there is to know about being a male (I could show her a thing or two). But women...I must admit I am experiencing some confusion (although that is hard to believe)."
"Perhaps if you became a woman, you might begin to understand. But it is foolish to speak of such unlikely things."
"What nonsense is this? Of course it is unlikely for me to become a woman!"
"No, I mean that it's unlikely you would understand women even if you were a woman. You don't even understand men, because you cannot see into your own heart."
"What do you mean by that?"
"I am finished talking to you, stupid male."
"Bah! (Women are so difficult to deal with.)"
Why would a woman find someone like Edwin attractive? Well, someone like Liza Doolittle might look up to him or seek his validation if her sense of self-worth became dependent on him. If he was the only person in the world who could help her achieve her objectives, he would be very important to her. But again, I don't think that applies to a PC. From my perspective, my primary interest in installing an Edwin MOD (one which was true to Edwin's character) wouldn't be to romance him, but to study his character. Higgins is an interesting character, and a lot of people seem to like Edwin. At the very least, Edwin might make an interesting conversational foil, if not someone I'd ever want to romance.
Let's think about the reality of an adventuring party. A small group of characters spend all of their time together in close proximity, depending on each other for survival, following a common leader, getting on each other's nerves, sharing triumphs and other special moments with each other, and becoming intimately familiar. They are bound to leave a mark on each other, and they might develop special bonds. Edwin has a strong character (even if he is not immediately likeable) and a strong will. If he fell in love, I imagine he would not get over it quickly, and given his tendency to be in control, I imagine he would be persistent and try his best to solve his problems one way or another. I think he would always remain self-centered, egotistical, and rude, but even men like him can find someone to marry in the real world. Who knows what might happen if he met the right woman?
He might even be more attractive than Anomen.
- fable
- Posts: 30676
- Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:00 pm
- Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
- Contact:
"No, I mean that it's unlikely you would understand women even if you were a woman. You don't even understand men, because you cannot see into your own heart."
I realize you're just speculating, here, but any mention of heart (other than with sardonic laughter) would be outside Edwin's conceived character, IMO; and that's one reason I think a Pygmalionesque approach wouldn't work with him. To be sure, he views himself as logical, as does Henry Higgins (GB Shaw's avatar). Higgins/Shaw is sexually repressed and something of an idiot savant, the brilliant child used to be tolerated for his genius, grown up. Edwin, by contrast, is a sociopath, a Machiavellian schemer who simply thinks the world matters only in so far as it relates to his needs. And those needs are to be feared and obeyed.
We might speculate that there's a locked door in the chamber of Higgins' heart that could be opened by an articulate, intelligent Eliza (though Shaw himself, typically contrary, denied it, and wrote a brief epilogue claiming that Eliza married Freddy; Higgins supposedly continued much as he had done, for the rest of his life). This is the mark of Shaw's heros in so many of his lighter plays: they're all misogynistic to the extent that they can't abide those women who have been acculturated into airheads by Edwardian society. Each is awaiting an articulate, intelligent, strong woman to come along and claim him--which happens in Man and Superman, for example, and (despite Shaw's own words) in Pygmalion.
There's no such lock, no repression, on Edwin's heart. Unlike Higgins, he doesn't have a multifaceted relationship with the world, involving friends, colleagues, and the manifold delights thereof. Edwin really only relates to anybody for the sake of advancing his goals. He doesn't like any part of humanity, because he views himself as separate from it, and above. He is more like Nietzche's Ubermensch, save that, like all such Overmen, he has only pride and dissociation, rather than accomplishment, to show for his outlook. For Edwin to discuss emotions with anybody else, he would have to literally rethink his whole to life; and such a seachange would require an entire mod, itself.
I realize you're just speculating, here, but any mention of heart (other than with sardonic laughter) would be outside Edwin's conceived character, IMO; and that's one reason I think a Pygmalionesque approach wouldn't work with him. To be sure, he views himself as logical, as does Henry Higgins (GB Shaw's avatar). Higgins/Shaw is sexually repressed and something of an idiot savant, the brilliant child used to be tolerated for his genius, grown up. Edwin, by contrast, is a sociopath, a Machiavellian schemer who simply thinks the world matters only in so far as it relates to his needs. And those needs are to be feared and obeyed.
We might speculate that there's a locked door in the chamber of Higgins' heart that could be opened by an articulate, intelligent Eliza (though Shaw himself, typically contrary, denied it, and wrote a brief epilogue claiming that Eliza married Freddy; Higgins supposedly continued much as he had done, for the rest of his life). This is the mark of Shaw's heros in so many of his lighter plays: they're all misogynistic to the extent that they can't abide those women who have been acculturated into airheads by Edwardian society. Each is awaiting an articulate, intelligent, strong woman to come along and claim him--which happens in Man and Superman, for example, and (despite Shaw's own words) in Pygmalion.
There's no such lock, no repression, on Edwin's heart. Unlike Higgins, he doesn't have a multifaceted relationship with the world, involving friends, colleagues, and the manifold delights thereof. Edwin really only relates to anybody for the sake of advancing his goals. He doesn't like any part of humanity, because he views himself as separate from it, and above. He is more like Nietzche's Ubermensch, save that, like all such Overmen, he has only pride and dissociation, rather than accomplishment, to show for his outlook. For Edwin to discuss emotions with anybody else, he would have to literally rethink his whole to life; and such a seachange would require an entire mod, itself.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
- UncleScratchy
- Posts: 869
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 11:28 am
- Location: Location: PA
- Contact:
This sounds like a great idea. They should make one for Jan and Korgy as well. Consider Jan's randy encounter with Viconia when she plays the practical joke on him about having a spider on his back. He tears his shirt off and then tell Viconia how turned on to her he's become. Korgy is really got it bad for Mazzy and is always bragging about his sexual prowness. Why not let these pint sized studs have a romance with the protagonist. If I want to play an evil female wizard what better mate than Edwin. I certainly wouldn't be going for Anomen.
But the best part of an Edwin Romance Mod would be that you're playing a male protagonist and wait for Eddy to become Edwina and leave him as a female. Maybe even allow Edwina to sire an evil mageling child. Or have it so Edwin/Edwina realizes that he/she is really a bisexual creature afterall and his fate is to become a harlot working in the Copper Coronet or the Five Flagons for the rest of her life. Anyway, I think it could be fun. Certainly no worse than the other romance choices out there.
But the best part of an Edwin Romance Mod would be that you're playing a male protagonist and wait for Eddy to become Edwina and leave him as a female. Maybe even allow Edwina to sire an evil mageling child. Or have it so Edwin/Edwina realizes that he/she is really a bisexual creature afterall and his fate is to become a harlot working in the Copper Coronet or the Five Flagons for the rest of her life. Anyway, I think it could be fun. Certainly no worse than the other romance choices out there.
"The Khajiit mind is not engineered for self-reflection. We simply do what we do and let the world be damned." Quote from the Ahziirr Traajijazeri
"Fusozay Var Var"
"Fusozay Var Var"
In the dialogue I made up (which I admit could be improved, because I wrote it off the top of my head), Viconia is the one who mentioned the heart, not Edwin, and he didn't understand what she was talking about.Originally posted by fable
"No, I mean that it's unlikely you would understand women even if you were a woman. You don't even understand men, because you cannot see into your own heart."
I realize you're just speculating, here, but any mention of heart (other than with sardonic laughter) would be outside Edwin's conceived character, IMO...
I don't think that Eliza and Higgins fell in love with each other per se. They became emotionally dependent on each other, but that's not the same thing as romantic love. . I don't think that Eliza's articulateness and intelligence are what unlocked Higgins's heart. I see it as sort of a father-daughter relationship. Higgins enjoyed being the center of Eliza's world, and she wanted his respect and admiration. Those plus close proximity for an extended period of time led to a bond forming between them. It's a bit surprising that Eliza would be fond of someone who treated her the way that Higgins did, and it's a bit surprising that someone like Higgins would develop an affection for someone else, especially a woman, since in his eyes, women are nothing but trouble. But Higgins, like Eliza, is human, and deep down, his heart is not much different from anyone else's. His feelings can be hurt, he can miss someone he has "gotten used to", and he can feel jealous, abandoned, and betrayed when he ceases to be the center of the universe in the eyes of someone who has always looked up to him. We can laugh at him for making life so difficult for himself since he has made life so difficult for others.Originally posted by fable
We might speculate that there's a locked door in the chamber of Higgins' heart that could be opened by an articulate, intelligent Eliza... There's no such lock, no repression, on Edwin's heart...
You're suggesting that Edwin could never fall in love with anyone. You might be right about that. But wouldn't it be interesting if he could? "Love" takes many different forms. For example, there's romantic love, and then there's selfish "love", which has the same symptoms if it's unfulfilled, making the distinction difficult to see sometimes. I think that Edwin might be capable of being dependent on someone and being absolutely miserable if he couldn't get what he needed. It would drive him crazy, and since he couldn't take his mind off of it, he would attempt to solve his problem (when he wasn't busy trying to deny it) with his analytical skills. That's why I picture him seeking counsel (in his own inimitable style) from other members of the party. Since matters of the heart have no place in his mental picture of the world, he couldn't understand what's going on inside his own heart, and he would place the blame for his problems elsewhere. Like Higgins, he would rail against women, but I don't think he would glorify the qualities of men, since he doesn't think highly of anyone but himself. Ultimately, to find any sort of peace, he would have to find the answers inside himself. Perhaps his adventure with the Nether Scroll could shed some light on his situation (though I doubt it). The idea is that his feelings are uncontrollable and he isn't able to understand them. But he has those feelings because he's human.
I'm just bouncing some ideas around. I don't see much resemblance between Edwin and the two characters I mentioned in my earlier posts (Swann and Stephen). That's why I thought that Edwin's character would have to change considerably if he ever fell in love. But now that I have compared him to Henry Higgins, who will never change much on the outside, I think an Edwin MOD is even more plausible. Edwin's basic nature wouldn't change, and he would still be rude and crude on the outside. But if he experienced new feelings, he might learn to accomodate them. Or perhaps he could repudiate them and be bitter about his experience for the rest of his life. But I think the important thing is that he's human, and almost anything is possible.
- fable
- Posts: 30676
- Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:00 pm
- Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
- Contact:
At that point in his development, he can't understand what the problem is (he doesn't think there's any problem in himself), but since it's getting under his skin, he is trying to use his powers of reason to solve the problem.
I doubt Edwin would put much effort into thinking about it. IMO, He would never pose such a question to Viconia, since he would always believe he had the answer to hand: "Sentimentality. Lies and false expectations, driven by male louts looking to get into those female breeches that are so the style these days (and quite fetching, as even I must admit). Then, the breeches come off, and so do the lies."
This is just my own take on it, of course, no better nor worse than yours.
I don't think that Eliza and Higgins fell in love with each other per se. They became emotionally dependent on each other, but that's not the same thing as romantic love. . I don't think that Eliza's articulateness and intelligence are what unlocked Higgins's heart.
We're getting a bit far afield, here, but I do feel that the beknighted pair are circling the candle of love and falling towards it, for all that Higgins in particular tries to retreat. The last act of Pygmalion is revelatory in that respect. Eliza makes it quite clear that she has feelings for him (at least, it's the kind of reticent language which in Shaw means she's practically tearing off her skirt). Higgins tries to lay one obstacle after another before her, with a practiced ease that leads to the uncomfortable suspicion he's been here, before. There's no question, though, but that Eliza has his number, and instead of wilting, charges full-tilt in anger at his evasions. Higgins' last line is, IMO, a subtle but tacit acknowledgement of affection and, in his own contrary way, a means of expressing how much he needs her. Shaw would write many plays over the years, but none ever went further in revealing mutual affection--as much as that may be said about such verbal sparring. (One critic once said that watching a Shaw play was like spending an evening listening to a roomful of very clever people hit one another over the heads with clubs.)
You're suggesting that Edwin could never fall in love with anyone. You might be right about that. But wouldn't it be interesting if he could?
Of course, but it wouldn't be Edwin; or at best, it would be Edwin sea-changed through some epiphany--and therefore, again, not the Edwin we know. What makes Edwin so much fun is that he really *is* the evil, self-obsessed villain you often end up fighting in such games, but without all the power and smarts for the job, and on your side (for a change). If he were a bit sympathetic the humor would vanish in an instant, because we'd feel too much for him, and wonder what kind of person lay beneath the arrogance. As it is, we never doubt for a minute that the arrogance is the man: he displays it often enough to demonstrate this.
So an Edwin romance mod could work, but the luck, advantages and character of Edwin would have to fundamentally change, I think, before such a romance could take place. How might that happen?
If we were doing such a mod, he might receive a summons that required his "immediate attention (not that you yokels will likely remember anything within five minutes of its removal from your presence)." He could go off for a predetermined period of time, perhaps arriving back after the next major quest has finished, and sending word that he may be found at a specific location. The man who shows up might be much worn and battered, in clothing, body, and spirit. He could then give you a brief sypnosis of his adventures while recovering.
If nothing else, this would set the stage for a reformed Edwin, still somewhat obnoxious, but in a half-hearted, not-quite-sure-whether-he-means-it-any-longer manner. Such a person could be ripe for change, if the right catalyst arrives. In other words, if you're playing a female character, it could pose an opportunity for romance, with Edwin's alignment moving to chaotic good. If you're a male character, besides dialogs with you (which might move his alignment), the most likely candidate to function as a love interest would be Aerie. Viconia's alignment change doesn't occur until ToB, and Jaheira broods too much to with to deal with another's wounds. However, Aerie possesses a natural sympathy which could be a real strength if her will ever firms up. Edwin could possibly help her on that latter point.
Just speculations, of course, like yours.
I doubt Edwin would put much effort into thinking about it. IMO, He would never pose such a question to Viconia, since he would always believe he had the answer to hand: "Sentimentality. Lies and false expectations, driven by male louts looking to get into those female breeches that are so the style these days (and quite fetching, as even I must admit). Then, the breeches come off, and so do the lies."
This is just my own take on it, of course, no better nor worse than yours.
I don't think that Eliza and Higgins fell in love with each other per se. They became emotionally dependent on each other, but that's not the same thing as romantic love. . I don't think that Eliza's articulateness and intelligence are what unlocked Higgins's heart.
We're getting a bit far afield, here, but I do feel that the beknighted pair are circling the candle of love and falling towards it, for all that Higgins in particular tries to retreat. The last act of Pygmalion is revelatory in that respect. Eliza makes it quite clear that she has feelings for him (at least, it's the kind of reticent language which in Shaw means she's practically tearing off her skirt). Higgins tries to lay one obstacle after another before her, with a practiced ease that leads to the uncomfortable suspicion he's been here, before. There's no question, though, but that Eliza has his number, and instead of wilting, charges full-tilt in anger at his evasions. Higgins' last line is, IMO, a subtle but tacit acknowledgement of affection and, in his own contrary way, a means of expressing how much he needs her. Shaw would write many plays over the years, but none ever went further in revealing mutual affection--as much as that may be said about such verbal sparring. (One critic once said that watching a Shaw play was like spending an evening listening to a roomful of very clever people hit one another over the heads with clubs.)
You're suggesting that Edwin could never fall in love with anyone. You might be right about that. But wouldn't it be interesting if he could?
Of course, but it wouldn't be Edwin; or at best, it would be Edwin sea-changed through some epiphany--and therefore, again, not the Edwin we know. What makes Edwin so much fun is that he really *is* the evil, self-obsessed villain you often end up fighting in such games, but without all the power and smarts for the job, and on your side (for a change). If he were a bit sympathetic the humor would vanish in an instant, because we'd feel too much for him, and wonder what kind of person lay beneath the arrogance. As it is, we never doubt for a minute that the arrogance is the man: he displays it often enough to demonstrate this.
So an Edwin romance mod could work, but the luck, advantages and character of Edwin would have to fundamentally change, I think, before such a romance could take place. How might that happen?
If we were doing such a mod, he might receive a summons that required his "immediate attention (not that you yokels will likely remember anything within five minutes of its removal from your presence)." He could go off for a predetermined period of time, perhaps arriving back after the next major quest has finished, and sending word that he may be found at a specific location. The man who shows up might be much worn and battered, in clothing, body, and spirit. He could then give you a brief sypnosis of his adventures while recovering.
If nothing else, this would set the stage for a reformed Edwin, still somewhat obnoxious, but in a half-hearted, not-quite-sure-whether-he-means-it-any-longer manner. Such a person could be ripe for change, if the right catalyst arrives. In other words, if you're playing a female character, it could pose an opportunity for romance, with Edwin's alignment moving to chaotic good. If you're a male character, besides dialogs with you (which might move his alignment), the most likely candidate to function as a love interest would be Aerie. Viconia's alignment change doesn't occur until ToB, and Jaheira broods too much to with to deal with another's wounds. However, Aerie possesses a natural sympathy which could be a real strength if her will ever firms up. Edwin could possibly help her on that latter point.
Just speculations, of course, like yours.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
I enjoyed your comments about the play Pygmalion. Unfortunately, I read it when I was 14, and I don't think I understood it very well. I tried to watch the movie My Fair Lady several times over the years, but I couldn't bring myself to watch the whole thing until this weekend. I'll try to read Pygmalion again sometime. I'm in a much better position to understand it now.
I don't think that Edwin needs to undergo an alignment shift or a major change in character to become infatuated with a strong, attractive woman and go crazy if he can't have what he wants. I've tried to think of comparable literary examples, but of course, Edwin is, like you say, an evil, unsympathetic character, so that makes comparisons difficult.
Evil characters are not my specialty, but surely there are examples such as mafia leaders, mad scientists, traditional villains, etc. who demonstrate that even evil characters can have a love life, of sorts.
At the risk of belaboring the point, I think that Edwin would undergo a transformation only if he felt overcome by a force--such as unfulfilled desire--which he had no choice but to come to terms with if he wanted to keep his sanity. I'm drawing upon examples of obsessive love that I have seen in real life. There was nothing sympathetic or comical about them. It's when we turn to literature and films (and perhaps roleplaying games) that we can look for comedy and entertainment in such situations. Take Higgins, for example. He's not evil like Edwin, but he certainly has his share of bad qualities (even his own mother is afraid to have him over when she has other guests). Part of our pleasure is supposed to lie in watching him get his comeuppance. Do we feel any sympathy for him? Only to the extent that he shares our common humanity. We don't wish to see him brutalized, but surely we don't think that he should have everything his way. Nothing really awful happens to Higgins; he simply can't have everything exactly the way he wants. Is that tragedy or comedy?
Getting back on the subject, Edwin already has other selfish, unrealistic desires, and I don't think he would have to change all that much to feel strange new desires in the presence of someone who swept him off his feet. The necessary catalyst would, of course, be the lady herself.
Even without becoming goodnatured per se, perhaps even Edwin might come to realize that making himself more acceptable to other people might be advantageous to himself. That's about the only lesson I would expect Edwin to learn from his experience. He would continue deluding himself about his personal prowess and the reasons why other people might find him attractive. Edwin is far less capable than Higgins of understanding the nature of human bonds, and that's saying a lot. And capable of helping someone like Aerie, ever? Forget it.
Under normal circumstances, Edwin thinks he knows everything he needs to know about himself and other people. But if a woman turned his whole world upside-down, I don't think he could ignore it. This is not intended to be an ad hominem attack against you or your arguments, but do you have much experience with unrequited love? Speaking from personal experience, I know that having a broken heart changes everything. The "quality" and the nature of Edwin's "love" is certainly debatable, but if he's not a cartoon character, we could expect similar reactions from him: desires pitted against reason; self-interest challenged by self-destructive tendencies; and obsessive thoughts that just won't let up. Edwin strikes me as a bit of a control freak, so I can imagine him making an attempt to control the painful situation he finds himself in. I think that he would try to persuade other people to understand his position even to the point of trying to manipulate other people.
Of course, he would be very clumsy at it, because as I suggested, his basic character wouldn't change. Even if he ends up finding peace or even settling into a pleasant, comfortable relationship (for him), he would still be rude and selfish and obsessed with his plans for world domination. It's just that his personal relations would become a little more normal for a change.
Let me reiterate that it's fun to discuss this sort of thing with you. I appreciate your insights.
Whatever you say about Edwin is fine with me. I don't like him all that much because he's so obnoxious (and not very funny). But when someone suggested that he could participate in a romance, that's when I took more of an interest in his character. I don't think that you and I disagree so much about Edwin's character, because most of your remarks about him ring true. I think where we might disagree is whether a selfish, evil man can become heartbroken. It might simply come down to a disagreement about the nature of love (I have a selfish form of "love" in mind).Originally posted by fable
You're suggesting that Edwin could never fall in love with anyone. You might be right about that. But wouldn't it be interesting if he could?
Of course, but it wouldn't be Edwin; or at best, it would be Edwin sea-changed through some epiphany--and therefore, again, not the Edwin we know. What makes Edwin so much fun is that he really *is* the evil, self-obsessed villain you often end up fighting in such games, but without all the power and smarts for the job, and on your side (for a change). If he were a bit sympathetic the humor would vanish in an instant, because we'd feel too much for him, and wonder what kind of person lay beneath the arrogance. As it is, we never doubt for a minute that the arrogance is the man: he displays it often enough to demonstrate this.
So an Edwin romance mod could work, but the luck, advantages and character of Edwin would have to fundamentally change, I think, before such a romance could take place...
If nothing else, this would set the stage for a reformed Edwin, still somewhat obnoxious, but in a half-hearted, not-quite-sure-whether-he-means-it-any-longer manner. Such a person could be ripe for change, if the right catalyst arrives. In other words, if you're playing a female character, it could pose an opportunity for romance, with Edwin's alignment moving to chaotic good...
I don't think that Edwin needs to undergo an alignment shift or a major change in character to become infatuated with a strong, attractive woman and go crazy if he can't have what he wants. I've tried to think of comparable literary examples, but of course, Edwin is, like you say, an evil, unsympathetic character, so that makes comparisons difficult.
At the risk of belaboring the point, I think that Edwin would undergo a transformation only if he felt overcome by a force--such as unfulfilled desire--which he had no choice but to come to terms with if he wanted to keep his sanity. I'm drawing upon examples of obsessive love that I have seen in real life. There was nothing sympathetic or comical about them. It's when we turn to literature and films (and perhaps roleplaying games) that we can look for comedy and entertainment in such situations. Take Higgins, for example. He's not evil like Edwin, but he certainly has his share of bad qualities (even his own mother is afraid to have him over when she has other guests). Part of our pleasure is supposed to lie in watching him get his comeuppance. Do we feel any sympathy for him? Only to the extent that he shares our common humanity. We don't wish to see him brutalized, but surely we don't think that he should have everything his way. Nothing really awful happens to Higgins; he simply can't have everything exactly the way he wants. Is that tragedy or comedy?
Even without becoming goodnatured per se, perhaps even Edwin might come to realize that making himself more acceptable to other people might be advantageous to himself. That's about the only lesson I would expect Edwin to learn from his experience. He would continue deluding himself about his personal prowess and the reasons why other people might find him attractive. Edwin is far less capable than Higgins of understanding the nature of human bonds, and that's saying a lot. And capable of helping someone like Aerie, ever? Forget it.
That's good dialogue.Originally posted by fable
I doubt Edwin would put much effort into thinking about it. IMO, he would never pose such a question to Viconia, since he would always believe he had the answer to hand: "Sentimentality. Lies and false expectations, driven by male louts looking to get into those female breeches that are so the style these days (and quite fetching, as even I must admit). Then, the breeches come off, and so do the lies."
Of course, he would be very clumsy at it, because as I suggested, his basic character wouldn't change. Even if he ends up finding peace or even settling into a pleasant, comfortable relationship (for him), he would still be rude and selfish and obsessed with his plans for world domination. It's just that his personal relations would become a little more normal for a change.
Let me reiterate that it's fun to discuss this sort of thing with you. I appreciate your insights.
I was hoping that you or someone else would elaborate on that.Originally posted by UncleScratchy
If I want to play an evil female wizard what better mate than Edwin...
The challenge would be in getting Edwin to see someone else as an equal and to become so committed to her that he would give up his own life for her. Or perhaps one of them might betray the other, like Demi Moore's character did to Bruce Willis's character in Beavis and Butt-Head Do America. Of course, he hired the moronic duo to "do" her, but that didn't stop them from getting back together, at least for a while. Kind of looks like they were made for each other.
I hope someone else can think of a better example of an evil pair of lovers.
- UncleScratchy
- Posts: 869
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 11:28 am
- Location: Location: PA
- Contact:
Originally posted by VonDondu
I was hoping that you or someone else would elaborate on that.I figure most women would reject Edwin, but there must be someone out there who would like to be his partner.
The challenge would be in getting Edwin to see someone else as an equal and to become so committed to her that he would give up his own life for her. Or perhaps one of them might betray the other, like Demi Moore's character did to Bruce Willis's character in Beavis and Butt-Head Do America. Of course, he hired the moronic duo to "do" her, but that didn't stop them from getting back together, at least for a while. Kind of looks like they were made for each other.![]()
I hope someone else can think of a better example of an evil pair of lovers.![]()
I invision a kinky romance where the protagonist humbles, humiliates and dominates poor Edwin during the affair, all the while Edwin is so deeply in love that he's powerless or unwilling to stand up to her. The woman of his life would have dialog thats even more insulting and condescending than his is. That could make for some great exchanges. Edwin mutters one of his insults and gets a double dose in return (sort of a 'Jan style' cutting down to size mixed with rough love talk). Giving him the tough sarcastic treatment would make him love you while patronizing and sympathizing would make him revile you even more and even prevent the romance from happening (a complete twist on the typical romance dialog trees). Of course, the whole time, all the other NPCs would be taunting him about his new found love and the treatment he has to endure from his new squeeze.
Also if you are playing a male you should be able to romance him when he becomes Edwina. Or at least have Edwina flirt or hit on the guys in the party. Then have the protagonist assail Edwina with threats about paying for her sexual escapades if she ever gets changed back into a man.
Just as good would be a love triangle between a female protagonist, Jan and Viconia. Or a love triangle between a female protagonist, Korgy and Mazzy.
"The Khajiit mind is not engineered for self-reflection. We simply do what we do and let the world be damned." Quote from the Ahziirr Traajijazeri
"Fusozay Var Var"
"Fusozay Var Var"
Those are great ideas, Uncle Scratchy. I wish I could think of things like that.Originally posted by UncleScratchy
I invision a kinky romance where the protagonist humbles, humiliates and dominates poor Edwin during the affair, all the while Edwin is so deeply in love that he's powerless or unwilling to stand up to her. The woman of his life would have dialog thats even more insulting and condescending than his. That could make for some great exchanges. Edwin mutters one of his insults and gets a double dose in return (sort of a 'Jan style' cutting down to size mixed with rough love talk). Giving him the tough sarcastic treatment would make him love you while patronizing and sympathizing would make him revile you even more and even prevent the romance from happening (a complete twist on the typical romance dialog trees). Of course, the whole time, all the other NPCs would be taunting him about his new found love and the treatment he has to endure from his new squeeze.
Also if you are playing a male you should be able to romance him when he becomes Edwina. Or at least have Edwina flirt or hit on the guys in the party. Then have the protagonist assail Edwina with threats about paying for her sexual escapades if she ever gets changed back into a man.
Just as good would be a love triangle between a female protagonist, Jan and Viconia. Or a love triangle between a female protagonist, Korgy and Mazzy.
Have you ever seen the dialogue in Throne of Bhaal in which Korgan professes admiration for the PC (if she's female)?