Code Amber

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 5:00 pm

How many people know about this? Seems like a very good idea to me. I remember hearing the UK wanting to introduce this too. Thoughts? What ideas has your nation introduced?

ObsidianReturns · Post by **ObsidianReturns** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 5:20 pm

Personally I think all kids should be fitted witha GPS tracker they can turn on. That way if they do find themselves in real trouble, they can switch it on, bringing parents/police/paramedics.

Just think how many problems would be solved and lives would be saved.
However, AMBER is indeed a good start.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 5:52 pm

We've had the Amber Alert system here for a few months in West Virginia and it's been fairly effective. I know of two incidents where the Amber Alert was credited with locating two children who were abducted by family members as part of custody battles (the number one reason for child kidnappings) and both children were returned safely to their custodial parent(s).

I've also heard of voluntary programs where microchips can be implanted in children that identify them in the event of a kidnapping, but I think GPS transmitters/locators are a long way off.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 7:48 pm

I think the GPS system would be of greater use in more rural countries as a good countermeasure, although it would be useful anyway. Even though child safety is the idea, you know people will say an infringement of rights, etc...

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 12:24 am

That's true, however...

Originally posted by Nippy
I think the GPS system would be of greater use in more rural countries as a good countermeasure, although it would be useful anyway. Even though child safety is the idea, you know people will say an infringement of rights, etc...

...I think that the individuals involved are minors, I think it is still justified. Probably remove them only when they become classified as adults.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 4:16 am

Originally posted by Nippy
I think the GPS system would be of greater use in more rural countries as a good countermeasure, although it would be useful anyway. Even though child safety is the idea, you know people will say an infringement of rights, etc...

An infringment of rights - as I see it. Think of the marketing potential for a system that knows where all the kids are, all the time.

Enchantress · Post by **Enchantress** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 6:34 am

This was mentioned recently during one of the hunts for the many young girls that get abducted in the UK. I think it was with reference to Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, who were murdered last summer.

I think it's a good idea and so is micro-chipping children. Where I live, there is so much criminal damage and anti-social behaviour perpetrated by minors that I think something should be done to enable their parents and the police to gain some control over their actions.

I don't care about "human rights" when it comes to the safety of children or the safety of the public against criminal behaviour.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:59 am

Personally I think microchipping children is the wrong way to work this problem. While I live in Southern California... I have seen first hand the worth of the Amber system. More than once I have been on the freeway and boom I find myself searching with great pains to find what the large sign told me to find.. (whatever truck/car/van it says).

Its just in some cases I find that marking the children is the wrong place to look. I recently moved out and I live on a nice block with a lot of families. A lot of times I see parents neglecting to pay attention to the location or actions of thier children. I actually watched a father stare at the side of his house as his little girl (two feet from him) wandered out into the street as I was going down in my large LOUD and Easly visible truck. Of course I am very cautious on my street because of the amount of children... it was just amazing to me. If I was going just say 5 mph more.. the kid would have been well...

I'd rather see a shock/pain chip in illegitamite parents. I fear putting chips in any human. Terminators around the corner...

Gorgan · Post by **Gorgan** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 9:22 pm

The amber alert system has been in place for quite some time in Texas. I think its a really good system. I've seen many cases here were the Amber Alert system saved a childs life.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Fri Jun 06, 2003 9:44 am

Such an idea could be useful in abductions etc, but it seems to me that the children ought to have the option of turning off such a tracking advice, otherwise it is an invasion of human rights.

As far as not caring about rights goes, let's not give up on the ideal of innocent until proven guilty just yet, shall we? Do unto others as you would be done by and all that.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 10:21 am

I am a parent and I think Code Amber in itself seems like a good idea.... I do agree with Thug though... parents need to be more responsible. Not far from where I live is a beach and children's playground. The area becomes quite crowded by people of all ages during the warm, summer months. There have been far too many times when I have seen the parent of a toddler abently wander off while their child is playing in the sand...

Regarding a microchip... such a notion really worries me..... I can see how it would be very valuable, but it has some disturbing implications. I believe that all individuals, children and adults, should have the right to personal privacy.... As Ode says, if the child could voluntarily turn such a device off, it might be different...

Antimatter · Post by **Antimatter** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:54 am

And how long would it take the kidnappers to figure out that the kids would be outfitted with these chips? How many children would we find with additional wounds due to someone trying to cut a chip out of them? And I definately wouldn't want my child to have a chip. I would personally feel bad about invading upon their rights at that point.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 5:25 pm

OK, I'm sorry, but I've had to swallow my tongue upto now, but I think what we're getting at is we don't want to take away rights to freedom, yet we're bothered about having our children taken away from us? Personally, I'd consider letting my child (if I had one) have the chip or GPS, or whatever to help stop them from getting taken away. I'm also pretty sure that we could find a way to stop them being removed unless they wanted to.

Scayde · Post by **Scayde** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 6:05 pm

Originally posted by dragon wench
Regarding a microchip... such a notion really worries me..... I can see how it would be very valuable, but it has some disturbing implications. I believe that all individuals, children and adults, should have the right to personal privacy.... As Ode says, if the child could voluntarily turn such a device off, it might be different...

Sorry Nippy..*HUG*, I understand where you are coming from, and I would not try to convince you otherwise, but speaking only for myself...

This scares the hell out of me...Implanting a tracking device in our children would not protect them. A predator would not hesitate to cut it from their bodies. The only thing this would serve is to allow the government to invade our privacy that much more.As far as I am concerned our personal freedoms and liberties are too fast becoming the sacrificial cow to the fears of the masses.
I treasure my family. In fact, I love them far too much to ever sit quietly by while an opportunistic politician seizes on the public's fears in order to institute perhaps one of the most Orwellian schemes I have heard of outside of science fiction.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 6:10 pm

Originally posted by Scayde
Sorry Nippy..*HUG*, I understand where you are coming from, and I would not try to convince you otherwise, but speaking only for myself...
This scares the hell out of me...Implanting a tracking device in our children would not protect them. A predator would not hesitate to cut it from their bodies. The only thing this would serve is to allow the government to invade our privacy that much more.As far as I am concerned our personal freedoms and liberties are too fast becoming the sacrificial cow to the fears of the masses.
I treasure my family. In fact, I love them far too much to ever sit quietly by while an opportunistic politician seizes on the public's fears in order to institute perhaps one of the most Orwellian schemes I have heard of outside of science fiction.

Hey, it's OK. I appreciate every mothers viewpoints on this. DW's, yourselfs, it's all good.

I think I really do understand where your coming from, and it is completely understandable. The more you think about it, the more it would smack of government control.

It is right to want to defend your childs well being, but sometimes you just feel like you can do nothing. A bit off the beaten track, but I didn't say that we couldn't in the thread, but a 36 year old man was just sentanced to three years imprisonment for having sex with two 13 year olds. Three years. Good God, those poor children will have to live with this for the rest of their life, and he has three years. Sometimes you wonder how low the civilisation can get. Sometimes you have to wonder why people exist.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Sat Jun 07, 2003 1:55 am

I agree with Nippy and Scayde, it does have disturbing implications and is decidedly Orwellian, but at the same time it has potentially valid applications, not just in terms of kidnappings but also for finding children who get lost, for example on camping trips. Like I said, if the child cannot deactivate it at will (and it mustn't simply be able to be switched back on again against the child's will, either) then it's definitely not on.

Originally posted by Nippy
I'm also pretty sure that we could find a way to stop them being removed unless they wanted to.

This could also result in kidnappers simply killing children who refused to turn off the tracking devices, rather than running the risk of being caught and/or identified.

Having given it some more thought, though, I think the potential for abuse by governments is too great, and the threat to personal freedom too serious. I can see such technologies becoming mandatory for all citizens "for their own protection", and then it becoming either compulsory to have it on all the time or it being possible for the powers that be to remotely reactivate it whenever they felt like doing so. Given the USAPatriot Act, and it's equivalent here in Oz, it doesn't seem that farfetched these days.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 5:22 pm

Originally posted by Scayde
Sorry Nippy..*HUG*, I understand where you are coming from, and I would not try to convince you otherwise, but speaking only for myself...
This scares the hell out of me...Implanting a tracking device in our children would not protect them. A predator would not hesitate to cut it from their bodies. The only thing this would serve is to allow the government to invade our privacy that much more.As far as I am concerned our personal freedoms and liberties are too fast becoming the sacrificial cow to the fears of the masses.
I treasure my family. In fact, I love them far too much to ever sit quietly by while an opportunistic politician seizes on the public's fears in order to institute perhaps one of the most Orwellian schemes I have heard of outside of science fiction.

Hear hear! (or is it here here?)
This is my opinion entirely.
When a new information infrastructure is going to be created, bordering on privacy-invasion, a government's motives cannot be trusted...However virtuous the intention, the use for more cynical purposes are always possible (and even probably what with the executive-involvement in the US government, IMO) when we start tracking the population with microchips, or monitoring civilian phone calls etc.

Bloodstalker · Post by **Bloodstalker** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 9:10 pm

I don't like the notion of embedding anything iside anyone to keep track of them. On the surface, it might sound good...have all children get these things and we'll be able to keep track of them. Then what happens? They grow up, and everyone is neatly catalouged and monitored constantly without them ever having had any input into the matter. They don't view it as an infringment on their rights once they reach adulthood because that's just "the way the world works". Their rights have been infringed upon, and worse, their thinking as a whole has been altered to believe that it's completely acceptable. They are a little more open to such things, and more apt to surrender more of their rights when asked.

Maybe I'm paranoid.

Scayde · Post by **Scayde** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 6:30 pm

@Nippy:....the sad truth is, there is not a way you can make your children completely safe..it is somethng that every parent lives with

@Ode and frogus: Yes I agree, the potential for abuse far outweighs any possibel benifit, and could even endager the childs life more than it already would have been.

@BS: You said it very well, it is much like boiling a frog, you start slowly, and he acclimates to it, by the time he notices the water is boiling, he is already cooked. I think our freedom has been being chipped away at slowly over the past 150 years to the point where the average citizen doesnt realize just how little privacy he really has. This smacks of Big Brotherism ni its most personal, and therefore heinous form.