What is marriage? (thread-related spam, only)

Enchantress · Post by **Enchantress** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 2:57 pm

Originally posted by HighLordDave
I do not wear ostentatious jewelry. I wear a fairly plain gold wedding band that my wife and I bought as part of a set ($300 for two wedding bands and an engagement ring). Some people look at the price of the ring as an indicator of their mate's love, and others belive wedding rings are an investment. To me, a ring isn't what makes you married, nor is it's price reflective of your relationship. I just don't understand people who spend thousands of dollars on rings when they have to pay for things like their mortgage, car payments and groceries.

I totally agree with you there. I don't like ostentatious jewellery either because I don't feel it would fit in with the other things I wear, it might attract the wrong kind of attention and you'd have to be careful about where you wore it.

I guess it's quite hard to choose a suitable engagement ring because the woman wants to have something she really likes and can comfortably wear but the man will be paying for it and probably wants to present it to her in some dramatic bent knee gesture of proposal.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 2:58 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans
Two months salary for a ring? Is it common to spend that much money on a ring? Is is socially expected?

That's what jewelry stores want you to spend on a ring, although I know people who have spend more and I know people who have spent less. I cannot find any correlation between the price of a wedding ring and marital happiness, so my advice is to save your money for a down payment on a house. My wedding ring is gold and I would have prefered a stainless steel band; gold is soft and deforms easily, steel does not.

Originally posted by Enchantress
I guess it's quite hard to choose a suitable engagement ring because the woman wants to have something she really likes

Engagement rings are also status symbols: How many carats does it have? How much did it cost? Mine's better than yours. If he really loved you, he'd make payments on your ring for years after you get divorced. Sad but true.

Some other ring trivia:

The wearing of wedding rings on the left is a result of the secular association of love and marriage; the left hand is closer to the heart. Orthodox Christians wear their wedding rings on the right hand, which is also the hand by which contracts are consummated. This is symbolic of the covenant nature of marriage as a sacrament within the Church.

Enchantress · Post by **Enchantress** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 3:10 pm

Originally posted by HighLordDave

Engagement rings are also status symbols: How many carats does it have? How much did it cost? Mine's better than yours. If he really loved you, he'd make payments on your ring for years after you get divorced. Sad but true.

Do you really need a ring to be engaged? If I got engaged, I know my friends and family would want to see "the Ring" but I feel kind of embarrassed about my partner having to fork out loads of money for a trinket for me just because it's tradition to do so.

I have my Polish great grandmother's platinum and diamond engagement ring as an heirloom passed down the family to me from her wedding in 1908. Could I wear that as my engagement ring, I wonder?

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 3:16 pm

Originally posted by Enchantress
But a pre-nuptual agreement is drawn up just before two people become obligated to each other by signing the contract of marriage.

Engagement just means a couple accept the proposal of getting married, traditionally the man buys the woman a ring and they may or may not make plans for when they get married in the future. They may never get married.

I don't think it's anything more than that, is it?

It was meant as an extension that some people actually do get contracted before marriage, not that all do.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 3:20 pm

@HLD: So just like there is a huge wedding-industry, there is also a engagement ring-industry, assume. Of course there is here too, but since traditions are different here, the industry is not a very good cow to milk. It's very common here to neither wed nor engage, and almost everybody use plain gold rings.

by HLD
The wearing of wedding rings on the left is a result of the secular association of love and marriage; the left hand is closer to the heart. Orthodox Christians wear their wedding rings on the right hand, which is also the hand by which contracts are consummated. This is symbolic of the covenant nature of marriage as a sacrament within the Church.

Yes, I remember noticing this when I started travelling around in Europe as a youngster...I then used to have my great-grandmothers old wedding ring at my right hand, and in some countries people thought I was married. That made me realise I could use it as protection against unwanted male company, so I let the ring shift hand depending on where I was, as to give the impression that I was married

Some totally uninteresting personal ring trivia: I never wear my wedding ring

I am not used to wearing jewelry, so I find it irritating to have a piece of metal around my finger although it is quite thin.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 3:25 pm

Originally posted by Enchantress
I have my Polish great grandmother's platinum and diamond engagement ring as an heirloom passed down the family to me from her wedding in 1908. Could I wear that as my engagement ring, I wonder?

Depending on how traditional you wish to be, I would say you could just decide to be engaged, with or without rings. Here, it is not uncommon that younger people engage with other symbols than rings, usually earrings or pendants (sp? a small thing you have on a chain around your neck).

Here, it is also totally accepted to use rings you have inherited as wedding rings, but then it is more common that you give the ring you have inherited to the other person. That is viewed as a symbol of really integrating your partner in you family. However, if you partner agrees, why not wear that special ring of yours as an engagement ring? I think it sounds like a beautiful idea.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 3:33 pm

Originally posted by Enchantress

@ The Married SYMies: Did you people get engaged to your future spouses before marriage and how long for? When did you decide you wanted to get married and why did you decide that? What were your weddings like and how were things different afterwards?

We dated for a year (living apart), we then lived together for a year, then he proposed and were engaged for 5 years, and have now been married for three. And from what I am lead to assume (though I do not know for sure, since it is not the done thing to ask) my engagement ring cost more than two months wages. It was paid for from the insurance money off a written off motorbike

I have previously discussed my opinions of marriage, in summary I was indifferent, since I was already committed, but since committment was not an issue, it was more for common sense in respect of financial legalities, as well as parental responsibilities that I finally agreed to tie the knot (we by that time had children and were on our second mortgaged property) - and then I held off naming a date (after I conceived our first child) because I wanted our family to be complete and both of our children to be special guests at our wedding. The saddest part for both of us, though, was that we had each lost a parent in the meantime who would have loved to see that day. But then, we had to ask ourselves, who were we really doing this for?

Our wedding was low key in the fact that it was not a full church wedding with all the associated pomp and circumstance. We had a civil wedding but in a 16th century coaching inn. A wedding breakfast (why do they call it breakfast?) which was a five course meal for 35 close friends and family, then an evening celebration with a hundred guests. A good friend of mine is a jazz singer, so she gave us a wonderful performance in the early evening, then we had a great rock disco until late. A fantastic party!!

How are things different since we married? Nothing has changed between us at all

Regarding ownership of the ring, I was engaged once before, in my youth, and that turned out badly. I returned the ring for as much of a reason as to he paid for it, as to the fact that why would I want the reminder?

@CE, Thank you for sharing your story *hug* You and Silur do indeed make a wonderfully compatible and loving couple from what I have seen

Re children, having children can indeed make or break any relationship, it is a major compromise, but also the richest gift if both parties are in favour and work together. If one is unsure, then it will be a real trial on the relationship to say the least...

@Enchantress and HLD, I have a solitare diamond engagement ring, I am not into ostentatious jewelry either. Regarding the actual wedding bands, it is quite sweet. I have a very simple thin 22 carat gold band that I inherited from my paternal Grandmother - I was the only Grand-daughter it would fit, and in a superstitious way (considering how many times my parents were married) I take comfort that this ring had joined one couple before me in a marriage of a lifetime (50+ years). My husband has a similar (but wider) band of 22 carat gold, that was melted down and reformed from the wedding bands of his paternal grandmother and his paternal great grandmother

Enchantress · Post by **Enchantress** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 3:36 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans
However, if you partner agrees, why not wear that special ring of yours as an engagement ring? I think it sounds like a beautiful idea.

Well, it would save him a bit of money! I think it might cause him to feel rather uninvolved though and some people say there's always an attachment to a piece of jewelery by it's original owner and sometimes second hand things can be "bad luck".

I don't necessarily believe this per se but I guess it maybe makes sense to have a new engagement ring to symbolise a new and current relationship. My great grandmother died in 1936 and was probably wearing this ring, God bless her!

Edit: @ Yshania: thanks for your story. I liked what you said about your heirloom rings, though.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 5:36 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans
@HLD: So just like there is a huge wedding-industry, there is also a engagement ring-industry, assume. Of course there is here too, but since traditions are different here, the industry is not a very good cow to milk. It's very common here to neither wed nor engage, and almost everybody use plain gold rings.

Although the jewelry industry has for years attempted to convince us that a diamond engagement ring is vital to show a woman how much a man cares, that bit of propaganda didn't make any difference to my wife or I. We settled for a pair of nice but plain gold wedding bands. The rest is in us.

@ The Married SYMies: Did you people get engaged to your future spouses before marriage and how long for? When did you decide you wanted to get married and why did you decide that? What were your weddings like and how were things different afterwards?

We dated for two years, then lived together for three, before deciding to get married. It was partially a matter of legal and familial convenience. My wife's family is pretty traditional and conservative in some respects; and while it didn't scandalize them that we were living together, it definitely made them uneasy. Personally, I could care less, but as it bothered my wife (who maintains far closer ties with her family than I do with mine), I was willing to compromise.

Actually, fable, I would be interested in hearing your "highflown Wiccan verbiage" concerning marriage. Perhaps you would share it sometime.

With Chanak's comment in mind:

SACRED VERBIAGE WARNING! READ AT YOUR OWN RISK.

I saw marriage between us as the sacramental expression of a love that is is larger than either of us, and has grown over time. It is a part of the most natural and healing aspect of the Earth, a force from which we all arise. It's also separate from us; our gift, in a sense, to the cosmos. It was created by us, and informs us. It is holy, nasty, frightening, all-encompassing, reassuring, intangible, and almost possesses an intelligence of its own.

Well, I did warn anybody who wanted to read that stuff. What do you expect from a Wiccan?

Beldin · Post by **Beldin** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 3:03 am

Just a "quickie" Posting...I'm in a hurry....

A delicious topic, @fable !

Here's my "2c" :

It is of no consequence if your married or not - as long as you and your partner have a good and working relationship. .

No worries,

Beldin

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 5:43 am

Originally posted by C Elegans
@HLD: Aha, I didn't know that...thanks for explaing, I wonder why how the different traditions developed?

I found this on the internet, and can't vouch for its accuracy (the page had no sources), but it sounds about right.

"The practice of men wearing wedding rings is relatively new. Up until the middle of the twentieth century, it was mostly only women who wore wedding rings, perhaps a throwback to the days when women were regarded as property, or perhaps a harmless custom akin to women wearing engagement rings that their husbands do not. When World War Two broke out and many young men faced lengthy - often permanent - separations from their wives, men began wearing wedding bands as a symbol of their marriages and a reminder of their wives. It was pure romance, a gesture of love and affection that has happily survived into modern times. While some men still do not wear wedding rings, the vast majority of men do, voluntarily."

I know many men who do not wear their wedding bands (almost all for work-related safety reasons), and my wife does not wear her ring to work (she's a nurse). I will also add that men in the United States typically do not wear a lot of jewelry; at most, men wear a watch, a wedding band and a medical bracelet/dog tags if they need one. Earrings, bracelets, rings and other accessories are not typically worn by most men (the gold chains and medallions of the 70s were an aberration), so it would follow that men would not wear engagement rings.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 6:44 am

Originally posted by fable
I think marriage as such is a recognition of an extra, spiritual dimension that has grown between us. Not important in and of itself, it acknowledges something very important for us.[/b]

That's the important part, it's the feeling one gets from defining ones relationship and accepting that other person as a life long partner.

I know lots of people in happy marriages and I know the opposite too, what defines marriage for me is work, my parents and every other married person I know works hard at their marriage, they have fights, they have a period of unrest and they get through it. Why there are so many divorces is a difficult question to answer, I guess it could be people getting married for the wrong reasons or the people just not suiting one another. Could it perhaps be marriage itself and the vows one undertakes that causes the problem, a fear of being trapped.

Enchantress · Post by **Enchantress** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:07 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
Could it perhaps be marriage itself and the vows one undertakes that causes the problem, a fear of being trapped.

But the fear of being lonely is as powerful a driving force for some people as the fear of being trapped is.

I just hate the idea of making a mistake and being stuck with the effects of it long term. It must be far worse if you have children because if you choose to divorce your partner, you're breaking up the children's family life as well as your own. How can people do that to their children?

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:24 am

A marriage is what the 2 people involved in it make of it.

If people want slaves, I guess that's what they'll get. If they want to express their bond, and they get something else, maybe they should look deeper.

Emotional bond for me though.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:23 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
Why there are so many divorces is a difficult question to answer, I guess it could be people getting married for the wrong reasons or the people just not suiting one another. Could it perhaps be marriage itself and the vows one undertakes that causes the problem, a fear of being trapped.

One part of the many divorces/failed relationships, and bad relationships, is that many people have unrealistic expectations, or fail to match their expectations, or that certain expectations trigger once you get married/move together which trigger behaviour patterns that was not there earlier in the relationship.

A lot of people have, consciously or unconsciously, "relationsship-kits" in their heads, that is, images of how things should be that are formed during a person's upbringing, by social conventions, by one's family or other role-models, by media and the industry...and it very common that people start to behave differently and demaning other things from their partner, when their relationship enter one of these symbolic milsestones like co-habitation or engagement/marriage. "Now when we have moved together you should't go out with your friends every single night in the week" and "Now when we are married you shouldn't work as much" and "Now when we are married you should be more interested in decoration of the home we share" etc etc are very common ideas that people have - but people's personality does not change because they put a ring on their finger.

Scayde · Post by **Scayde** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:33 pm

Originally posted by fable
Good questions.

Engagements derive primarily from the old custom of church banns. The banns were (are to this day, in some areas) a statement of intent called and posted three weeks before the wedding. Engagements serve much the same purpose in a more secularized, urbanized Western culture. It is a period of "getting used" to the concept of two separate individuals you've known, functioning as a single social unit.

Engagements have no weight under law that I'm aware of, but no doubt HLD could would know far better about this. Of course, if you draw up, sign, and notarize an engagement contract, than presumably you're obligated to follow its terms; so if you accept gifts under such a contract then violate its conditions, you might be held in breach of it and taken to court. But I can't imagine too many people actually sign engagement contracts, once you move outside the extremely wealthy and inbred set.

An interesting note here in the South, is that as recent as the Victorian age, and prior to the Civil war, if a man broke off an engagement for undue cause, the young lady, or rather her family, could sue for breach of contract and defamation. I am not sure if it applied as well when the man was the one who was jilted.

This was of course mostly among the monied families. Still, quite a lot has changed in the last hundred years.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:17 pm

There's no such thing as divorce in the Philippines...

...therefore when you get married you stay married with your spouse till one of you dies.

As such, marriage is taken really seriously and not just out of the whim. We have this saying in Tagalog which I will translate in English: "Marriage is not like hot rice wherein you can spit it out after you get singed."

The vows are really meant to be taken for what it really is and not just for romance sake.

That's the reason why some couples just live together first, then get married when they are pretty sure about their partner. Others go through seminars to see and convince themselves if they are truly ready for such a life-long commitment with their present partner.

In my family, none of my relatives are separated from their spouse.

If the marriage doesnt work, the couples separate but they cannot get married again unless their spouse dies.

Enchantress · Post by **Enchantress** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:38 am

@ Maharlika

Is there no divorce because most of population of the Philippines is catholic? If so, do couples have enormous families?

And are people generally faithful to their partners?

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:45 am

Originally posted by Enchantress
@ Maharlika

Is there no divorce because most of population of the Philippines is catholic? If so, do couples have enormous families?

And are people generally faithful to their partners?

Yes, religion has something to do with it.

Couples from the provinces tend to be big because of a lot of factors - one of them is that the church frowns on the use of contraceptive devices/methods other than the rhythm method.

Monogamy is one thing, fidelity is another.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:56 am

Originally posted by C Elegans
A lot of people have, consciously or unconsciously, "relationsship-kits" in their heads, that is, images of how things should be that are formed during a person's upbringing, by social conventions, by one's family or other role-models, by media and the industry...and it very common that people start to behave differently and demaning other things from their partner, when their relationship enter one of these symbolic milsestones like co-habitation or engagement/marriage.

I thought much the same thing after observing the social butterflies of my high school years, who had subsequently married the jocks, and often underwent nasty divorces. Almost invariably, the accusations were the same: he was a "slob" who thought about nothing except "sports and drinking with his buddies," and "acted like a five-year-old" all the time. He never "listened to her" or "tried to do things together;" he never showed any "respect." But then, they married these men for their muscles and the attention they got for successful sports activities. Why did the women think these qualities would be supplemented a high social interaction skills, or sensitivity to the feelings of others? That's not to deny such things occur, and that there have been some very successful athletes who had extremely attractive personalities. But few high school sports types do evince this kind of mature behavior; it's just not in their training, nor is it expected of them at the time.

Beneath the surface of such complaints about failed marriages seems to lie the implicit assumption that the person being married is an object whose obviously attractive qualities will be retained, while everything else is subject to change at the ego's whim. Expectations are governed, just as you state, by a series of never challenged assumptions that resemble fairy tales. The frog is turned into a prince by a kiss. Who would want to marry a frog, anyway? But we're all part-frogs, and to exist in the world means acknowledging and at least cherishing in part the frogishness of one's chosen mate.