Of course Kensai/Mage is an obvious and popular choice -- it was the one that stuck out in my mind when I first saw the kits and was playing a Fighter/Mage dual in BG1. However what I would like to know is who is actually playing a pure Kensai and what experience you have had with it.
My early take: High offense, low defense.
Ways to get around this:
1) Have another character tank and take shots over thier shoulder.
2) Drink lots of Defense and Invulnerability potions
3) Defensive Equipment:
Ilbratha
Ring of Gaxx
ROP +2
Cloak of Sewers (until Mirroring)
Ring of Air Control (ImpInvis is -4 bonus)
Dakkon's Zerth Blade (+1 AC...although it makes me want to dual to mage even more)
Kensai (not /Mage)
I know that wis is considered in the kensai equation. I read somewhere that you had to have a 9 in WIS to be a kensai, but I can't seem to find that information again.
Also, Kensai's can't be chaotic <anything>, so that could also be the problem.
As far as my experience with a straight kensai, I feel that they're just a weaker version of a fighter.
The kai ability doesn't make much difference after the beginning because of the plethora of strength items.
The -2 ac really don't help when you can wear absolutely no armor or bracers. With the horrible pathing codes in the game, often you find yourself the first one to arrive in a room full of monsters with the rest of your group still fumbling through the narrow corridors. The lack of AC in those situations are a definate downer.
[This message has been edited by Yuusuke (edited 11-02-2000).]
Also, Kensai's can't be chaotic <anything>, so that could also be the problem.
As far as my experience with a straight kensai, I feel that they're just a weaker version of a fighter.
The kai ability doesn't make much difference after the beginning because of the plethora of strength items.
The -2 ac really don't help when you can wear absolutely no armor or bracers. With the horrible pathing codes in the game, often you find yourself the first one to arrive in a room full of monsters with the rest of your group still fumbling through the narrow corridors. The lack of AC in those situations are a definate downer.
[This message has been edited by Yuusuke (edited 11-02-2000).]
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here! This is the war room!" -Dr. StrangeLove
"Never in my life could I have afforded to be raised!" -Fezhak
"I don't want to meet someone who shares my interests. I hate my interests." - Steve Buscemi Ghost World
"Never in my life could I have afforded to be raised!" -Fezhak
"I don't want to meet someone who shares my interests. I hate my interests." - Steve Buscemi Ghost World
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Bordin_Steelaxe
- Posts: 211
- Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2000 10:00 pm
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I don't think the reason for that you couldn't choose the kensai kit when you imported your fighter/mage was his alignment, but more the fact that he was a multi-class character. Multi-class characters can't choose kits. So if you want a kensai/mage you need to start a game with a kensai, get him to an ok lvl and then dual to mage. And you must be human
Hit me if I'm wrong
------------------
Bordin Steelaxe
The greatest Dwarf in history!... with an axe of steel
Hit me if I'm wrong
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Bordin Steelaxe
The greatest Dwarf in history!... with an axe of steel
Greetings from the humble adventurer Bordin Steelaxe
The greatest Dwarf in history!... with an axe of steel
D@mn UBB codes!
The greatest Dwarf in history!... with an axe of steel
D@mn UBB codes!
No prob, just a little underwhelmed.
I sort of expected it anyway.
In response to Yuusuke however, it seems to me that Kai is only a small part of the equation. At any level though, Kai with a katana will give an average of 4.5 extra damage per hit.
I think the idea with the Kensai is to kill the enemy before he gets to hit back...at least much. A full level 19 Kensai will almost always get the first swing and +6 to hit and +6 to damage in addition to STR and proficiency bonuses. A Kensai with a +3 weapon has the same attack as a fighter would with a +9 weapon. (Although Gauntlets of Weapon Mastery cut into this some)
An Improved Hasted Kensai with Celestial Fury and Dakkon's Zerth blade would have 5 attacks at Thac0 -14 and 2 at Thac0 -11. Against AC -12, he would hit on everything but a critical miss. If all attacks hit, with Kai and the Str 21 belt he would do (10+3+6+7)*5 + (10+2+6+7)*2 = 160 points of damage a round without a critical hit or lightning strike.
One on one against a normal fighter, the Kensai should win. However, very often fights are not against single equal opponents but against multiple weaker opponents and I think here the fighters AC gives the edge.
Oddly, I'm starting to think that the weapons a Kensai wants to master may be Flail and Warhammer. The STR bonus from Crom Faeyr and the AC/damage resist from Defender of Easthaven should work well.
Kensai should also be absolutely lethal as Slayers if they get to keep the bonuses. 4 Attacks/Round with an effective -15 Thac0, exceptionally high speed and +6 beyond normal Slayer damage. Unfortunately, you can't use the Slayer much.
I sort of expected it anyway.
In response to Yuusuke however, it seems to me that Kai is only a small part of the equation. At any level though, Kai with a katana will give an average of 4.5 extra damage per hit.
I think the idea with the Kensai is to kill the enemy before he gets to hit back...at least much. A full level 19 Kensai will almost always get the first swing and +6 to hit and +6 to damage in addition to STR and proficiency bonuses. A Kensai with a +3 weapon has the same attack as a fighter would with a +9 weapon. (Although Gauntlets of Weapon Mastery cut into this some)
An Improved Hasted Kensai with Celestial Fury and Dakkon's Zerth blade would have 5 attacks at Thac0 -14 and 2 at Thac0 -11. Against AC -12, he would hit on everything but a critical miss. If all attacks hit, with Kai and the Str 21 belt he would do (10+3+6+7)*5 + (10+2+6+7)*2 = 160 points of damage a round without a critical hit or lightning strike.
One on one against a normal fighter, the Kensai should win. However, very often fights are not against single equal opponents but against multiple weaker opponents and I think here the fighters AC gives the edge.
Oddly, I'm starting to think that the weapons a Kensai wants to master may be Flail and Warhammer. The STR bonus from Crom Faeyr and the AC/damage resist from Defender of Easthaven should work well.
Kensai should also be absolutely lethal as Slayers if they get to keep the bonuses. 4 Attacks/Round with an effective -15 Thac0, exceptionally high speed and +6 beyond normal Slayer damage. Unfortunately, you can't use the Slayer much.
I tried the kensai/mage, i dualed at level 8, i must say i wasnt really impressed, a kensai only really seems very powefull at a higher level, i guess i may have dual classed 2 early but then i would have compromised my mage skills. also being a kensai/mage means your mage cannot wear things such as bracers of ac4 (which r very helpful for a mage)
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people.
I'm curious as to how you got -14 thac0, not accusing anything, just wanna know you equipment.
Because if I take my kensai right now at level 12, I think his thac0 base is at 6, with frost giant strength, celestial fury, 3 points in katana, the ioun stone that gives 1 to thac0, i'm at -5 thac0. If I went all the way and got to level 19, that would still only give me a -7 thac0. Is there something that I'm missing that could lower thac0?
And it looks like you have...7/2 attacks per round, I only have 3 at the moment, what gave you the extra 1/2?
Now as to the question of fighting with kensai, I tend to categorize all the game encounters as one of three kinds...
The big'un: Which are dragons and large single creatures that you have to whittle down piece by piece.
The mob: Where you have a large group of very dangerous enemies. i.e. The Mindflayer dungeons, demonknights, and vampire swarms.
and the massacre: A completely one-sided victory for the player. i.e. Kuo-toa dungeon, Sahuagins, Orogs, and so on.
In the big'un, I tend to find my pure kensai running around trying to get away from the enemy long enough to get a couple of heal potions down his throat, and he can get back into the fray for about a couple of rounds and it's time to drink again. This tend to balance out any extra damage he does in battle.
In the mob situation, it's very dangerous for a kensai, because it's alot tougher to run away in case he gets hurt, and he pretty much will.
And a kensai will find himself in alot of these situations because that's what the kensai player likes to see, overwhelming odds, and bodies dropping at an amazing rate.
Then there's the savings throws, running into a room full of Mindflayers is bad enough with all the brain eating that's sure to take place, but if your kensai gets charmed, ooo boy, it's just got a whole lot uglier in there. If you play a kensai with katanas, there's basically no charm immunity equipment.
Most of the fights in the game are gonna be closer to The Massacre, but in those few rare occasions when you're getting it from all sides, it can get really annoying not having the AC.
P.S. I REALLY wanna know about the THAC0, because I want THAC0 like that too, damn it!
Because if I take my kensai right now at level 12, I think his thac0 base is at 6, with frost giant strength, celestial fury, 3 points in katana, the ioun stone that gives 1 to thac0, i'm at -5 thac0. If I went all the way and got to level 19, that would still only give me a -7 thac0. Is there something that I'm missing that could lower thac0?
And it looks like you have...7/2 attacks per round, I only have 3 at the moment, what gave you the extra 1/2?
Now as to the question of fighting with kensai, I tend to categorize all the game encounters as one of three kinds...
The big'un: Which are dragons and large single creatures that you have to whittle down piece by piece.
The mob: Where you have a large group of very dangerous enemies. i.e. The Mindflayer dungeons, demonknights, and vampire swarms.
and the massacre: A completely one-sided victory for the player. i.e. Kuo-toa dungeon, Sahuagins, Orogs, and so on.
In the big'un, I tend to find my pure kensai running around trying to get away from the enemy long enough to get a couple of heal potions down his throat, and he can get back into the fray for about a couple of rounds and it's time to drink again. This tend to balance out any extra damage he does in battle.
In the mob situation, it's very dangerous for a kensai, because it's alot tougher to run away in case he gets hurt, and he pretty much will.
And a kensai will find himself in alot of these situations because that's what the kensai player likes to see, overwhelming odds, and bodies dropping at an amazing rate.
Then there's the savings throws, running into a room full of Mindflayers is bad enough with all the brain eating that's sure to take place, but if your kensai gets charmed, ooo boy, it's just got a whole lot uglier in there. If you play a kensai with katanas, there's basically no charm immunity equipment.
Most of the fights in the game are gonna be closer to The Massacre, but in those few rare occasions when you're getting it from all sides, it can get really annoying not having the AC.
P.S. I REALLY wanna know about the THAC0, because I want THAC0 like that too, damn it!
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here! This is the war room!" -Dr. StrangeLove
"Never in my life could I have afforded to be raised!" -Fezhak
"I don't want to meet someone who shares my interests. I hate my interests." - Steve Buscemi Ghost World
"Never in my life could I have afforded to be raised!" -Fezhak
"I don't want to meet someone who shares my interests. I hate my interests." - Steve Buscemi Ghost World
Should've waited at least one more level Cloud, because at level 9, the kensai gets one more proficiency point, plus you can still reach level 17 (the max) as a mage.
But don't play a kensai mage as a part-time kensai and a part-time mage. The spells you should have memorized as a kensai/mage are totally different than the ones you need for a pure-mage. You want spells like blur, reflected image, stoneskin, armor, spell immunity, and all those defensive spells ready.
Just thinking about a kensai/mage with Stoneskin, mirror image, tenser's transformation, and fireshield walking into a room of bad guys gives me goosebumps.
But don't play a kensai mage as a part-time kensai and a part-time mage. The spells you should have memorized as a kensai/mage are totally different than the ones you need for a pure-mage. You want spells like blur, reflected image, stoneskin, armor, spell immunity, and all those defensive spells ready.
Just thinking about a kensai/mage with Stoneskin, mirror image, tenser's transformation, and fireshield walking into a room of bad guys gives me goosebumps.
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here! This is the war room!" -Dr. StrangeLove
"Never in my life could I have afforded to be raised!" -Fezhak
"I don't want to meet someone who shares my interests. I hate my interests." - Steve Buscemi Ghost World
"Never in my life could I have afforded to be raised!" -Fezhak
"I don't want to meet someone who shares my interests. I hate my interests." - Steve Buscemi Ghost World
For the Thac0 I'm using his effective Thac0 including bonuses. So, a Kensai gets -1 Thac0 per level, plus a +1 to hit every 3 levels.
So at level 19, he would have a base Thac0 of 1. Going from there...
Base: 1
Kensai Bonus: -6
Strength 21: -4
Grand Master: -2
Weapon +3: -3
Total: -14
With the Ioun stone it would be -15.
Now, this would be listed as a -8 (-9) since the 6 is actually a bonus applied to the to-hit roll, not to the Thac0.
I didn't actually calculate out the # of attacks, just used what I know Minsc had when Imp Hasted and dual wielding (Flail of Ages/Defender of Easthaven). I suspect the extra 1/2 is an undocumented bonus, maybe at level 14.
So at level 19, he would have a base Thac0 of 1. Going from there...
Base: 1
Kensai Bonus: -6
Strength 21: -4
Grand Master: -2
Weapon +3: -3
Total: -14
With the Ioun stone it would be -15.
Now, this would be listed as a -8 (-9) since the 6 is actually a bonus applied to the to-hit roll, not to the Thac0.
I didn't actually calculate out the # of attacks, just used what I know Minsc had when Imp Hasted and dual wielding (Flail of Ages/Defender of Easthaven). I suspect the extra 1/2 is an undocumented bonus, maybe at level 14.
I actually found my Kensai to be almost invinsible when dual weilding Katanas (Celestial Fury/Katana +2) and wearing a cloak of reflection and boots of speed.
I almost never need to use my Kai shot. I took the Grandmastery in Katana, with 3 slots in 2 dual wielding and at Level 17 my AC is pathetic at 0, but I still had no problems taking out the red dragon one-on-one.
the red-dragon's offensive spells bounced back at him, and after getting blessed and strengthened by Jaheira I was about to land for 54-60 points of damage per hit.
Those items are awsome in the beholder city as well, since all the cause serious wounds, death and flesh-to-stone spells reflected back and hit the beholders. just standing there is usually enough to win.
My Kensai has 18/79 strength, 18 dex, 18 const, 7 wis, 7 int, 18 char and at level 17 has 150 hp.
I almost never need to use my Kai shot. I took the Grandmastery in Katana, with 3 slots in 2 dual wielding and at Level 17 my AC is pathetic at 0, but I still had no problems taking out the red dragon one-on-one.
the red-dragon's offensive spells bounced back at him, and after getting blessed and strengthened by Jaheira I was about to land for 54-60 points of damage per hit.
Those items are awsome in the beholder city as well, since all the cause serious wounds, death and flesh-to-stone spells reflected back and hit the beholders. just standing there is usually enough to win.
My Kensai has 18/79 strength, 18 dex, 18 const, 7 wis, 7 int, 18 char and at level 17 has 150 hp.
Something that most people seem to forget is that the best armor spell(gives platemail AC I believe) can be cast on anyone.
Combine that with the fact that you almost never get dispelled when physical combat is an issue...and the fact that you get -2 ac naturally...AC isn't a problem.
I don't think kensai/mages are worth the hassle unless tenser's gives you more offensive potential (never cast the spell myself).
Because really, it's not how powerful you are at the end that matters, it's how well you do throughout. It strikes me as pretty ahhh (how to phrase this) odd...that people are actually building their characters to use crom faeyr.
YOU HAVE TO DO ALL THE TOUGH FIGHTS IN THE GAME TO GET IT GODDAMMIT!! WHAT'S THE POINT??
/rant
(oh, and kai is useless, sadly.)
Combine that with the fact that you almost never get dispelled when physical combat is an issue...and the fact that you get -2 ac naturally...AC isn't a problem.
I don't think kensai/mages are worth the hassle unless tenser's gives you more offensive potential (never cast the spell myself).
Because really, it's not how powerful you are at the end that matters, it's how well you do throughout. It strikes me as pretty ahhh (how to phrase this) odd...that people are actually building their characters to use crom faeyr.
YOU HAVE TO DO ALL THE TOUGH FIGHTS IN THE GAME TO GET IT GODDAMMIT!! WHAT'S THE POINT??
/rant
(oh, and kai is useless, sadly.)
I agree about Kai being not that useful although it does an average of +4.5 damage when attacking with a katana. A strength modifier or a special 20-50% extra damage would have been better.
I'm not sure how it happened, but my kensai now has 4 attacks normally. It looks like the Boots of Speed do add an extra 1/2 attack to warrior classes but there is still an extra 1/2 attack unaccounted for. Maybe a bonus at level 13 or 14?
=3/2 Grand Mastery
+1/2 Level 7 bonus
+2/2 2nd weapon
+1/2 Boots
=7/2
Re-reading some comments. Yes, when my kensai gets charmed things get ugly fast. It doesn't happen often and he's generally pretty far away from the rest of the party when it does, but it was amazing how fast he dropped Keldorn despite AC -10.
I'm not sure how it happened, but my kensai now has 4 attacks normally. It looks like the Boots of Speed do add an extra 1/2 attack to warrior classes but there is still an extra 1/2 attack unaccounted for. Maybe a bonus at level 13 or 14?
=3/2 Grand Mastery
+1/2 Level 7 bonus
+2/2 2nd weapon
+1/2 Boots
=7/2
Re-reading some comments. Yes, when my kensai gets charmed things get ugly fast. It doesn't happen often and he's generally pretty far away from the rest of the party when it does, but it was amazing how fast he dropped Keldorn despite AC -10.