Ok everyone, you finished TOB -- what did you think?
The following is my opinion, if you don't agree then...well, don't agree. I'm not trying to bum you out or offend you.
1) Bioware was absurdly lazy in fixing known "bugs." It takes unpaid Kevin Dorner to fix things that apparantly SHOULD be fixed like stacking of spells? Imagine my shock when I found out that Bioware claims Blur and Armor or Faith should NOT stack. Well hell guys, you had plenty of time to fix this!
2) No new monsters. I mean, seriously. Fire Giants are just bigger versions of Golemns. There is no strategy involved in fightnig them, just whack whack whack. Magic golems die from 4 hits from a non-magic katana. That's about it. Not much effort went into this. Yeah, Demigorgon was new, that's about it.
3) Project Image/Simulacrum unchanged? Well OK I guess you meant it that way. Makes my life very easy, and scrolls cheaper than dirt.
4) No scary spellcasting enemies before the big last one. Anyone else notice this? Obviously magic is out of whack at higher levels, a level 30 mage (as scripted by Bioware) is a laugher/yawner. You just step up to the plate and start hitting, with some weapons you can do 20+ environmental damage per hit (club of fire). Unless this wizard is really really prepared, a dumb fighter can easily bash him dead before anything bad happens.
5) Insanely linear plot. Ridiculous imp. NO balance of battles; most battles are very very very easy, and then you come across one that's tricky. But it's random, you never can tell. The last battle was at a different level than the others, which is fine. Tough!
6) Ridiculously LAME special abilities. Either they are very powerful (use any item) or surpassingly stupid (create 1 potion once a day). Use a magic flute? No special abilities for paladins/monks different from fighters? This is lazy, lack of imagination, or something else even worse.
Personally -- I think Bioware just needed the money. Their brains and best designers worked on something else -- this was left to the newbies.
Maybe that's for the best, I should just view TOB as giving Bioware an extra 6 mo. of money to work on their latest game.
You finished TOB, what did you think?
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fable
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I liked it. It was definitely more linear than BG2, but it's an add-on, and that's common among add-ons. It was imaginatively done, with good skills, new spells, some new monsters, and a great new character to join the team. It also rebalanced a number of things that I thought were off, before. All in all, quite enjoyable.
Well, you did ask...
Well, you did ask...
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
I think also that the game was brilliant... It was really fun to play but maybe as you say a bit easy. But not to easy. I got stucked during the game at some places and needed to ask for help to continue.
There where some new monsters. It was not a brand new game so i think its fair enuff to have so few new. I think they made it better than Blizzards do with their Diablo who only changes name ontheir monsters and keep on having the same graphic for them.
There where some good spellcasters too in the game but it was quite easy to avoid their spells with a good tactic. But everything is easy if you are good.
The abilites is as you say a bit to good sometimes. I think Use any item was to good as you also say. But like whirlwind and such stuff was really cool. But i think it wasnot lack of inspiration or stuff you mention. But what do i know... I guess not so much as i want..
There where some new monsters. It was not a brand new game so i think its fair enuff to have so few new. I think they made it better than Blizzards do with their Diablo who only changes name ontheir monsters and keep on having the same graphic for them.
There where some good spellcasters too in the game but it was quite easy to avoid their spells with a good tactic. But everything is easy if you are good.
The abilites is as you say a bit to good sometimes. I think Use any item was to good as you also say. But like whirlwind and such stuff was really cool. But i think it wasnot lack of inspiration or stuff you mention. But what do i know... I guess not so much as i want..
I also enjoyed TOB. I agree that the Magic Golems were completely lame. Maybe if they didn't tell us that these golems couldn't be hit by magic weapons, they might have presented a problem. They didn't even last a round against Korgan with a plain warhammer. The Fire Giants weren't very tough either. However, I thought the final Sendai battle was very tough. My spell casters got broasted as soon as I killed the first statue because they were standing safely on the stairs and then, BOOM, 5 drow gate in and start whacking at them and there's no where to run!!!! I thought Draconis was tough, I NEVER expected him to turn into a Dragon AFTER I killed him!! Abagazil was kind of tough too. I thought Ravager was REALLY tough. I lost several comrades during that fight. Thank god for the Rod of Ressurection. I thought the last battle was really tough as well. Overall, I thought it was worth the $25 I spent on it.
I think the final battle with melissan was lame. kill her, cut the flow, kill her, cut the flow, kill her, cut the flow...
If I asked, would you answer? Its your problem. Its a deep, deep problem. I have no way to ask about that... I have no elegant way of stepping into your heart without tracking in filth. So I will wait. Someday, when you want to tell me, tell me then. -Bleach
hehe, yeah, it would've been cooler to fight bhaal at the end...
If I asked, would you answer? Its your problem. Its a deep, deep problem. I have no way to ask about that... I have no elegant way of stepping into your heart without tracking in filth. So I will wait. Someday, when you want to tell me, tell me then. -Bleach
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fable
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Fighting Bhaal, even if it had made sense in context, you'd have lost. You were a god wannabe; he was a god. Immortality tends to lend an edge in personal conflicts.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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TheHellion
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I really enjoyed ToB. I've played quite a few expansions in my day, and most of them were pretty lousy. BioWare went above and beyond the call of duty, as far as I'm concerned.
I'll agree that it was terribly linear, especially from an evil point of view. No matter how you respond, virtually all the conversations in the game lead to one outcome and one outcome only. That's a let-down, but forgivable in an expansion pack.
It was predicted that ToB would have a scant few new monsters, since the AD&D game didn't offer much to challenge such a high-level party. That said, I think BioWare did pretty well, all things considered; there were more new monsters than the ones you just named, after all. There were succubus, baatezu, floating eye-thingies, and various other abyssal creatures, as well as new varieties of dragons.
I thought the special abilities were also a welcome addition, though they were a little overpowered. Just for the record, they came straight from the High-Level Campaign Handbook, so don't knock ToB if you don't like them.
Like you, I also noticed that ToB lacked really tough spell casters, and the reason for this is undoubtedly that no spellcaster could possibly stand up to a well-equipped ToB party. Between Keldorn's ridiculous Dispel Magic, Jaheira's Insect Plague, and every melee fighter's +5 or +6 weapon, spell casters just don't stand a chance. ToB is all about massive melee beatdowns, which is why having Keldorn, Sarevok, Minsc, Jaheira, and my archer in one party probably made it way too easy.
I don't know about you, but I think we needed ToB more than BioWare. At least I did. Bio delivered, and I, for one, am grateful.
[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: TheHellion ]
I'll agree that it was terribly linear, especially from an evil point of view. No matter how you respond, virtually all the conversations in the game lead to one outcome and one outcome only. That's a let-down, but forgivable in an expansion pack.
It was predicted that ToB would have a scant few new monsters, since the AD&D game didn't offer much to challenge such a high-level party. That said, I think BioWare did pretty well, all things considered; there were more new monsters than the ones you just named, after all. There were succubus, baatezu, floating eye-thingies, and various other abyssal creatures, as well as new varieties of dragons.
I thought the special abilities were also a welcome addition, though they were a little overpowered. Just for the record, they came straight from the High-Level Campaign Handbook, so don't knock ToB if you don't like them.
Like you, I also noticed that ToB lacked really tough spell casters, and the reason for this is undoubtedly that no spellcaster could possibly stand up to a well-equipped ToB party. Between Keldorn's ridiculous Dispel Magic, Jaheira's Insect Plague, and every melee fighter's +5 or +6 weapon, spell casters just don't stand a chance. ToB is all about massive melee beatdowns, which is why having Keldorn, Sarevok, Minsc, Jaheira, and my archer in one party probably made it way too easy.
I don't know about you, but I think we needed ToB more than BioWare. At least I did. Bio delivered, and I, for one, am grateful.
[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: TheHellion ]
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire
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fable
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Nice post, @Hellion. And yeah, by ToB, the player's party is pretty overpowered--hell, even Aerie and Jan seemed overpowered (especially if you gave them items that cancelled out their limitations).
Still, it was worlds beyond what was achieved with BIS' IWD add-on, HoW. Bioware did a nice job in creating atmosphere through good dialog and interesting characterization. I think some of us expected a brand new BG2; would that were the case. But what we got instead is really just an excellent add-on--nothing to complain about.
Still, it was worlds beyond what was achieved with BIS' IWD add-on, HoW. Bioware did a nice job in creating atmosphere through good dialog and interesting characterization. I think some of us expected a brand new BG2; would that were the case. But what we got instead is really just an excellent add-on--nothing to complain about.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
I loved playing it too, but I cant see my self playing (the main story) again. Watchers keep is a really nice add-on dungeon that gives you a little option before finishing SoA. First time trough I found the story great and answered many questions I have had since day one. The plot as a whole quickly became thin, but okay.. the main intro says 5 bhaalspawns.. and hey, what do you expect?, that they are your new party memembers?
Things I really missed:
- A new none mage type class, just something to try out while running through SoA again.
- More interaction between Sarevok and main character.. and Imoen, I was hoping for something really special at the end, but nothing really happend.
- more bug fixes, I actually feel that ToB has made the game more buggy.. anyone else?
Disliked about it:
-The fighting hordes of monsters, really fun i the begining, but quickly becomes boring.
- The fact that Viconia die's if you choose not to become a god... I know I know, but I thought they wanted closure!
- Too many damn items... laughable.
- Not being able to get a portion bag in SoA, come on.. how hard could that be..
- Alot of the abilities, but not all of them are bad.
The great stuff:
- Sarevok
- Sarevok
- The story of you and what happend, really nice to get everything out in the open
- Summon deva ability, good animation and sounds.. love it!
- A REALLY good add-on, and totally worth the buck spend.
- Sarevok
That sums it up for me, The BG saga has been great!.. I hope NWN will be the same and start a whole new era of wickedness.
Things I really missed:
- A new none mage type class, just something to try out while running through SoA again.
- More interaction between Sarevok and main character.. and Imoen, I was hoping for something really special at the end, but nothing really happend.
- more bug fixes, I actually feel that ToB has made the game more buggy.. anyone else?
Disliked about it:
-The fighting hordes of monsters, really fun i the begining, but quickly becomes boring.
- The fact that Viconia die's if you choose not to become a god... I know I know, but I thought they wanted closure!
- Too many damn items... laughable.
- Not being able to get a portion bag in SoA, come on.. how hard could that be..
- Alot of the abilities, but not all of them are bad.
The great stuff:
- Sarevok
- Sarevok
- The story of you and what happend, really nice to get everything out in the open
- Summon deva ability, good animation and sounds.. love it!
- A REALLY good add-on, and totally worth the buck spend.
- Sarevok
That sums it up for me, The BG saga has been great!.. I hope NWN will be the same and start a whole new era of wickedness.
/Kaaze
i thought overall the game was ok, good but not as good as a bg3 would have been. i liked the idea of the story being more involved in the game, the massive fights. but then again i didn't like the lack of npc interaction with each other and with me.
the only one who talked to me was arie, romance, and there was little of it. i really was hoping to hear more from imoen, since she was a big part to the series, and i thought i read somewhere one of the developers mention she would get more dialogue, but in my game she said nothing but one line to minsc. i really likes the npc interaction in bg2 and really wanted more. also the game seemed too rushed at times, i understand that they're trying to tell a long story in a expansion but then why not make it in a full blown game? and some areas seemed small, but aside from that and considering it's an expansion it was good. but like i said i would have preferred a bg3, even if it meant waiting a year or two, maybe some day.
the only one who talked to me was arie, romance, and there was little of it. i really was hoping to hear more from imoen, since she was a big part to the series, and i thought i read somewhere one of the developers mention she would get more dialogue, but in my game she said nothing but one line to minsc. i really likes the npc interaction in bg2 and really wanted more. also the game seemed too rushed at times, i understand that they're trying to tell a long story in a expansion but then why not make it in a full blown game? and some areas seemed small, but aside from that and considering it's an expansion it was good. but like i said i would have preferred a bg3, even if it meant waiting a year or two, maybe some day.
KaaZe, thanks for the damn Viconia romance spoiler I'm going through the game again with Viconia as my romance this time! That ticks me off...(okay, calm down)
Ok, just had to say that. It's not really all your fault, but please think before you post. Just because I've finished the game doesn't mean I've explored every nook and cranny of it (which is impossible in one time through, even in linear ToB)
[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Magus ]
I'm going through the game again with Viconia as my romance this time! That ticks me off...(okay, calm down)Ok, just had to say that. It's not really all your fault, but please think before you post. Just because I've finished the game doesn't mean I've explored every nook and cranny of it (which is impossible in one time through, even in linear ToB)
[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Magus ]
Lost Souls: A bereft lover. A masterless familiar. Friends gone their separate ways. Time marches on, and destiny heralds the meeting of comrades old and new. Can they find what they're seeking? Or will the search bring them only more pain?
I thought that ToB was great too. I don't know why you guys didn't find the last fight against the fire giants hard. It took me three times to beat it. The third fight aginst Mellisan where she summons six slayer shadows right away was very challenging for me as well. It took me four days to beat it, even with all the planetars and Elemental Prince that I summoned.
The story made sense and some of the areas were realy cool, (The Swamp, and the Marching Mountains) but I wish they were way bigger. I have to agree with you soni29, that it would be better if they made a bg3 instead, and could have elaborated on some of the areas.
The story made sense and some of the areas were realy cool, (The Swamp, and the Marching Mountains) but I wish they were way bigger. I have to agree with you soni29, that it would be better if they made a bg3 instead, and could have elaborated on some of the areas.
Nick_Dude is a proud member of the Shadow Mages. All who stand in Shadow Mages' way will fall!!
Originally posted by Magus:
<STRONG>KaaZe, thanks for the damn Viconia romance spoiler
Ok, just had to say that
[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Magus ]</STRONG>
Sorry about that... I made a no no... but you really should stay away from post's like these if dont know something like that.
[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: KaaZe ]
/Kaaze
Right now I am giving ToB another go at it, but I am still greatly disapointed in it. All it is, is stupid dumb fights. Oh go here and kill that. Your main character is a god? Actually no every damn character in that game is a damn god. Come on I find it really stupid when I fight someone I just have to take 2 of my fighters and my sorceror and destroy a party of 6 powerfull npc in about 12 seconds.
Special abilities? WTF?!!!?!? They all suck big donkey balls exept maybe for Imp.Alacrity and G.Whirwind and use any item. WtF? critical strike or magic flute. God damn it.
And the story what the hell happened there? Through out BG1 and SoA you had no idea that you are to became a god, or if you did it took half or the whole game to figure it out. In this damn game its like the whole F*king dialog changes.
Why could they not just make ToB like Tales of the Sword Coast, you know add a couple of things and then just do BG3 or something.
The story in ToB as I said sucked big nuts! It went to damn fast. I had more fun playing IWD, at least in that game there are things that can kick your ass.
Jesus what the hell happened to the items, you are no longer getting magical items you are getting freaking artifacts! and you don't even have to bust your ass for them. Foebane is just there, the Psion Blade is your prise for beating down some golems!?!?!?! AHHH!!!
Sorry guys but I was excpecting a whole lot more than this sorry exuse for an ending.
Oh heheh you are now a god..... yup you are....
Here is the only good thing about ToB. SAREVOK.
Special abilities? WTF?!!!?!? They all suck big donkey balls exept maybe for Imp.Alacrity and G.Whirwind and use any item. WtF? critical strike or magic flute. God damn it.
And the story what the hell happened there? Through out BG1 and SoA you had no idea that you are to became a god, or if you did it took half or the whole game to figure it out. In this damn game its like the whole F*king dialog changes.
Why could they not just make ToB like Tales of the Sword Coast, you know add a couple of things and then just do BG3 or something.
The story in ToB as I said sucked big nuts! It went to damn fast. I had more fun playing IWD, at least in that game there are things that can kick your ass.
Jesus what the hell happened to the items, you are no longer getting magical items you are getting freaking artifacts! and you don't even have to bust your ass for them. Foebane is just there, the Psion Blade is your prise for beating down some golems!?!?!?! AHHH!!!
Sorry guys but I was excpecting a whole lot more than this sorry exuse for an ending.
Oh heheh you are now a god..... yup you are....
Here is the only good thing about ToB. SAREVOK.
Trap? What trap!? Ah shi....!!!!
It's hard to not agree with some of what two said. His problem is that he just got too damn good at powergaming (there is no other way to make it all the way through with just a solo bard dying only once).
I have some additional gripes of my own. Having just finished, I thought the ending was a bit abrupt. My party was a chaotic evil swashbuckler/mage and Sarevok. (I wanted a romance! Damn!) She chose accept her divinity, hoping to rain fire on all, but then I'm told she used her powers for good? WTF?
Keeping your party small makes the otherwise easy battles more interesting, and in many ways more fun than both soloing and playing the full party. Still, with just these two I didn't really have a hard time. I rested a total of 3 times in all of ToB.
What Bioware did best, I think, was the new voice acting. Really first rate, especially the elemental demon in Watcher's Keep. Actually, the whole keep had plenty of great battles, some even made me reload!
What I didn't like is the fact that additional experience really didn't make your character much more powerful. Sure, Sarevok could keep adding greater whirlwinds, but no one gained more thac0, and my mage hardly gained any spells. It used to be so great in BG2 whenever you heard the "level up" bell, but in ToB it makes you think: ah, whatever. If I were to go through it again I'd do more dual-classing so that I could actually get excited about extra XP.
I have some additional gripes of my own. Having just finished, I thought the ending was a bit abrupt. My party was a chaotic evil swashbuckler/mage and Sarevok. (I wanted a romance! Damn!) She chose accept her divinity, hoping to rain fire on all, but then I'm told she used her powers for good? WTF?
Keeping your party small makes the otherwise easy battles more interesting, and in many ways more fun than both soloing and playing the full party. Still, with just these two I didn't really have a hard time. I rested a total of 3 times in all of ToB.
What Bioware did best, I think, was the new voice acting. Really first rate, especially the elemental demon in Watcher's Keep. Actually, the whole keep had plenty of great battles, some even made me reload!
What I didn't like is the fact that additional experience really didn't make your character much more powerful. Sure, Sarevok could keep adding greater whirlwinds, but no one gained more thac0, and my mage hardly gained any spells. It used to be so great in BG2 whenever you heard the "level up" bell, but in ToB it makes you think: ah, whatever. If I were to go through it again I'd do more dual-classing so that I could actually get excited about extra XP.
Oh golly gee whillickers.Originally posted by spork:
<STRONG>It's hard to not agree with some of what two said. His problem is that he just got too damn good at powergaming (there is no other way to make it all the way through with just a solo bard dying only once).
</STRONG>
Silly me, I had no idea I was "powergaming," much less "just...too damn good" at it! Is that a back-handed compliment, or just a back-handed slap?
Actually, if you would just try it out, I bet you could get surprisingly far soloing a bard w/out reloads. Try it. Start in Irenicus' prison, and work outwards. Go slow, be careful, etc. It's fun!
It's also primo for something called "roleplaying" I believe (I don't do it myself but I have heard about it); I mean, put yourself in your character's shoes. Wouldn't you be slow; cautious; defensive-minded; patient; wary; not eager to run into ANY battle unprepared, etc? I mean...this is life and death after all. So you spend 40 days in Irenicus' prison -- so what? Hey, you lived!
Sheesh...somebody hand me a fluffer-nutter.
Sorry, I admit I overreacted. It's just that the Viconia romance is going to be one of the only new parts in ToB, going through the second time. What you said was the very last thing I wanted to know.Originally posted by KaaZe:
<STRONG>
Sorry about that... I made a no no... but you really should stay away from post's like these if dont know something like that.
[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: KaaZe ]</STRONG>
Lost Souls: A bereft lover. A masterless familiar. Friends gone their separate ways. Time marches on, and destiny heralds the meeting of comrades old and new. Can they find what they're seeking? Or will the search bring them only more pain?