Liches are ga... suck

Fnord · Post by **Fnord** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:24 am

I fancy myself a lich basher, but one thing's always bothered me about liches, and it's about time I got an answer.

Liches are immune to normal weapons, and they just love casting Protection from Magical Weapons. No problem, right? Just Breach it. Or, maybe not; Spell Ineffective. Why in God's name does Breach not work on liches? The reason Breach exists is to take down combat protections, but did the designers decide that the one creature you'd really need to use Breach on should be immune to it? PnP doesn't describe any inherent magical immunities, other than mind affecting and death spells... honestly, what gives?

Ron_Lugge · Post by **Ron_Lugge** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:09 am

My guesses (I usually just hit liches with lotsa strong magics, and not let them get their defenses up... and once they are up, I hit them with "dispel" to get rid of ProEvil and let them handle the gate monster.

A) Spell shield

B) Spell immunity

Necrotaur · Post by **Necrotaur** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:36 pm

I just send a berserking Korgan in to absorb all their spells and wail away at them.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:31 pm

urm...liches are immune to fifth level spells and below....

use remove magic...i know, remove magic is 3rd level spell, but due to the way its coded, remove magic can dispell lich protection from magic weapons...

now a lich is a very powerful spell caster, so the remove magic at low levels does not have a great chance of removing lich protection...so spell sequence them...

now a tactics mod smarter lich...that sucker is HARD...

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 3:22 am

urm...liches are immune to fifth level spells and below....

as User says.
With them you have to be a little creative, I try to do with anything I have at hand.
A couple of times I got rid of their Protection from Magic Weapons by mazing them. When they return the protection is expired, or close to! After all they’re dead and scripted, while we’re alive and smart!

Without Tactics installed anyway, simple ways to deal with them exist, Abi Dalzim works fine for instance.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 4:09 am

with tactics installed, you need chain contingency, and ruby ray of reversal, or I think the wand of spell strike may work...

or cheese it to death by using multiple rings of ram and gem bag, bash it to death...(use, insert ring in bag to instantly recharge)

tactics mod liches like to use prot from magic weapons, and impr invisibility and spell immunity divination, and protection from energy,(stacked...makes them immune to sunray)

but frankly, the best way to take care of smarmy liches is to buff out a fighter with protection from magic energy, elements and energy, boots of preservation from ritual, then impr haste them, and attack with improved azuredge..

a really high level cleric turn undead works, as long as the cleric is protected by those protection spells...

smarmy liches are an absolute nightmare at lower levels with tactics mod installed...which, i guess is the whole point...

Fnord · Post by **Fnord** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:18 am

urm...liches are immune to fifth level spells and below....

Aaahhh... one of those bizarre BG2 treatments, then, kind of like of Illithids being immune to fire. Interesting. That answers my question, then! It's rather amusing that any lich would bother to use Globe of Invulnerability, considering they have a better version for free.

So a lich with Prot from Magic Weapons is going to be impossible to harm with weapons for four rounds, period (unless you can successfully dispel). A lowly party's only hope, therefore, is to do what I've always done and affect some means of waiting out the spell's duration, or take the lich on at a high enough level to spam it with Horrid Wiltings until it goes down for the count.

Thanks for the replies!

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:14 pm

A scroll of protection from undead also works nicely.

Ron_Lugge · Post by **Ron_Lugge** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:24 pm

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly
but frankly, the best way to take care of smarmy liches is to buff out a fighter with protection from magic energy, elements and energy, boots of preservation from ritual, then impr haste them, and attack with improved azuredge..

Boots of preservation?

Ron_Lugge · Post by **Ron_Lugge** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:29 pm

Originally posted by Ned Flanders
A scroll of protection from undead also works nicely.

IIRC, not with tactics mod it doesn't!

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:52 pm

Ok Ron, no idea there. What's a tactics mod and does it apply to all enemies in the game? I guess I could read about it elsewhere. I remember using a beholder mod somewhere along the way.

Ron_Lugge · Post by **Ron_Lugge** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:57 pm

Originally posted by Ned Flanders
Ok Ron, no idea there. What's a tactics mod and does it apply to all enemies in the game? I guess I could read about it elsewhere. I remember using a beholder mod somewhere along the way.

IIRC, the tactics mod is available at http://www.weidu.org. It is, in essance, a difficulty increaser. It ramps up the difficulty on many (maybe all) fights, though it focuses on making Liches and the main bosses much more nasty. For example, Illych and his bunch would be level 20 - plus a cleric high enough of a level to cast "summon Fallen Deva"

edit:

Of relevence here, it specificly nerfs (actually, removes) the "ignore people under PfU scroll" effect for liches...

Necrotaur · Post by **Necrotaur** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 4:30 pm

Originally posted by Ron_Lugge
For example, Illych and his bunch would be level 20 - plus a cleric high enough of a level to cast "summon Fallen Deva"

What the flunk? Are you sure Improved Illych has all those changes? I can't forsee how a party 4 or 5 who are at most level 9 would ever hope to win that battle...

Boris · Post by **Boris** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 4:58 pm

liches are easy

Hello.

I'm new to this forum, so do not not understand the deeper technicalities, but have been playing BGII for a few months & get by okay.

I just get Minsc to hit liches with the Mace of Disruption (enhanced, if that matters?) until they explode. I haven't had any particular probs - just wiped Vangoethe & his simulacruum that way. Haven't experienced the "immune to lvl 5 & below" issue - not only does Breach usually do the biz, but am pretty sure a Melf worked a treat the other day (t'b*gger had a few spell castings ruined & I thought it was the residual acid did the damage...?)

Of course, I may be missing something...

B.

Ron_Lugge · Post by **Ron_Lugge** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:02 pm

Originally posted by Necrotaur
What the flunk? Are you sure Improved Illych has all those changes? I can't forsee how a party 4 or 5 who are at most level 9 would ever hope to win that battle...

Well, according to the list of suggestions, it is very hard - but tactics can make the difference. First, you clear out the entire dungeon but Illych. (Sneak past him with Yoshimo to get the two-handed sword fromt he Genie, and go upstairs to get yoshimo / the wands before you do anything else). Then, you try to draw his people out one at a time. Also, you interupt the priests casting of summon deva with a magic missile or something similar.

Fnord · Post by **Fnord** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:49 pm

Originally posted by Ron_Lugge
Well, according to the list of suggestions, it is very hard - but tactics can make the difference. First, you clear out the entire dungeon but Illych. (Sneak past him with Yoshimo to get the two-handed sword fromt he Genie, and go upstairs to get yoshimo / the wands before you do anything else). Then, you try to draw his people out one at a time. Also, you interupt the priests casting of summon deva with a magic missile or something similar.

Geez! I just can't picture that being any fun. I'm all for ramping up the difficulty to make those party battles and big-bad liches and dragons more interesting, but forcing players to cheese their way through the whole game sounds terribly boring to me. I guess that's the whole point, though; if it's next to impossible, then anyone who can struggle through it the whole way earns mucho bragging rights.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 11:37 pm

Re: liches are easy

Originally posted by Boris
Hello.

I'm new to this forum, so do not not understand the deeper technicalities, but have been playing BGII for a few months & get by okay.

I just get Minsc to hit liches with the Mace of Disruption (enhanced, if that matters?) until they explode. I haven't had any particular probs - just wiped Vangoethe & his simulacruum that way. Haven't experienced the "immune to lvl 5 & below" issue - not only does Breach usually do the biz, but am pretty sure a Melf worked a treat the other day (t'b*gger had a few spell castings ruined & I thought it was the residual acid did the damage...?)

Of course, I may be missing something...

B.

Breach does NOT work on liches...this is well known, and confirmed....

boots of preservation is an item you get if you do the ritual quest in tactics mod...be warned, the ritual is very very difficult, and quite hard to win...the boots make you immune to dispell magic, breach, ruby ray, spell strike, etc...

smarter liches do not actually nerf protection from undead scrolls, it simply forces the liches to cast remove magic as part of their buffs, and they can psionically detect protected from undead party members...

illych is evil...and almost uncheesable...i only know of one way to cheese illych, besides sneaking past him and making your party stronger before taking him on...

cheese him using immortal imoen...

but I never do, cause that's just too mean...sniff....waaahhhhh!!!!!!

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:43 am

Originally posted by Fnord
Geez! I just can't picture that being any fun. I'm all for ramping up the difficulty to make those party battles and big-bad liches and dragons more interesting, but forcing players to cheese their way through the whole game sounds terribly boring to me. I guess that's the whole point, though; if it's next to impossible, then anyone who can struggle through it the whole way earns mucho bragging rights.

I agree with you for this component, as it forces you to an excessive, and in the end boring, approach.

But there are around 30 components in Tactics, and some of them are really a must, like Xyx's improved AI for beholders, or Blucher's Improved Mind Flyers. These creatures at last become the scary monsters they were supposed to be (but were not, in the original game).
I strongly suggest to try it, choosing the components you prefer.

Anyway there' s even the Improved Battles Mod, which complements Tactics (and there's Ascension and the Improved Tob fights, of course..).
You'll find all the links in the sticky.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:51 am

of course...some people like to experiment and find new ways to cheese those hard battles...like me...the cheese is actually the fun part...

sure, actually using cheeses other people have discovered can make those battles boring or annoying, but discovering new cheese is for me fun and interesting...

so littiz, have you been trying out battles? I've heard a lot of good things about battles, and i was thinking of finally field testing out my kensai sorc cleric hack...

is battles good and fun and very hard?

Ron_Lugge · Post by **Ron_Lugge** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:13 pm

You can install only parts of a Weidu mod?

<Looks sheepish> I didn't notice that when I started installing them about two/three weeks back... </sheepish>