Dont Torture Your Children

corsair · Post by **corsair** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 2:37 pm

Please people, dont be like my mother and ground your children for a DAILY grade or a TEST grade under an 85. Im not talkin about your kids average, im talkin about every day grades, like worksheets and stuff. If your wondering how my mom knows what I make on EACH AND EVERY assignment let me explain. In the great state of MIssissippi, there is a place known as Harrison County School District. One of the poorest school districts in the nation was able to afforade a web-site with ALL of the students grades on it. So, if you have kids, dont punish them for ONE 70 or ONE 80. Now, if their average is a 70 then, thats understandable. Ill stop ranting now and I hope this explained my situation a little better (Fable).

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 3:28 pm

He said he was grounded under the Lionheart forum, and I was curious why, but suggested posting the answer, here. That's why he brought me up.

So can you tell us, @Corsair, what grade level you're in, or would you rather not? Just curious. Mind, I'm not trying to poke fun at you. I have enormous sympathy for anybody who actually goes through the US Public School System without becoming an unlettered brute.

corsair · Post by **corsair** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:37 pm

Im in the 10th grade, the hardest of all the grades I have gone through yet. I have not failed any grades or classes what so ever and i maintain a B average at least. Oh. and ty for your sympathy

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:16 pm

I have all the sympathy for anybody in pre-university public schools. My recollections of that period are not pleasant. I've spoken repeatedly with authorities on home schooling, which lead me to believe that this is the right way to go; but many parents haven't got the time for such a task. Sad, really.

nael · Post by **nael** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 7:45 pm

i've made my views on kids more than obvious in the topic i started, but if i had kids i would be very tormn between home schooling and public schools.
i grew up in a VERY bad area...long befor eany of this columbine or 9/11 stuff, we had metal detectors, ID badges, clear plastic issued book bags, random searches of lockers, drug/weapon sniffing dogs...not fun. it was an environment where they strived to make the dumbest kids feel okay about themselves instead worrying about getting their smart kids ready for college. I actually had a teacher say to us, "why go to college? just learn a good trade".
but looking back, i don't know how my social skills might be different today. i might not be able to communicate as effectively or be as charismatic as i am (aside from some people migt say around here

).

but sorry corsair, i am on your folks side on this one- there is nothing wrong with expecting excellence, but excellence should eb expected in all areas, not just grades. your scoial life should not be completely sacrificed for grades. but remember...compared to college, high school is nothing when it comes to partying and hanging out with friends. so, get the grades now and worry abotu the rest later.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:36 pm

but sorry corsair, i am on your folks side on this one- there is nothing wrong with expecting excellence

Nael,
I appreciate what you are saying (and yes it is worthwhile to hold out for the social life of university or college), however I feel that exerting extreme pressure on kids to meet excellent standards in school is unwise, unreasonable and sometimes dangerous.

In most cases it are only the last two years that really count when applying to university. I didn't put very much effort into school until grade ten when I began to bust my butt.

Moreover, I spent some time teaching English in Japan where the philosophy of pressuring kids to do well is so intense that sometimes they commit suicide if they do badly. I realise that Japanese culture is very different to US culture, but even so I think it is a telling example of how negatively that sort of stress can affect a high school student.

nael · Post by **nael** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:37 pm

i can't speak to japanese culture, but i know korean...and there, at a young age, you take a test..you pass, you get to to go to college, you fail, you go to trade school. it's really not too bad of a system.
this would have kept my teachers from wastign time "preparing" me for a test a retarded monkey could pass. this would be the basic skills test you have to pass to graduate in Texas.

and believ me i understand how little high school matters. my biggest regret is that i went to class WAY too much...this from a guy who only went to first period probably once a week his senior year. god bless the fake doctor's note! But when i got to college, i was expected to know a lot more than what i did. and no amount of class would have helped that- the subject matter just wasn't covered. that's why i say it is okay to bust a kid's ass now so he can relax a bit more in college.

corsair · Post by **corsair** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 6:11 am

I agreee that parents should want a certain degree of effort, but if I make an 80 on something and I tryed my hardest, I should not be punished for it. I currently have almost NO social life because of this, and if your wondering how im typing this its because im at my Dad's house and he thinks my mom is a pshyco too. Also, if the 80 I make is the highest grade in the class (which it was) why should I be punished?

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:51 am

This sounds like your folks are divorced--is that the case?

I really don't think it's our business to take sides in this, but have you spoken to your mother about your concerns, directly, articulating your emotions without putting emotions into the words, themselves? This is a very difficult thing for all of us to do.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:55 am

Originally posted by nael
my biggest regret is that i went to class WAY too much...this from a guy who only went to first period probably once a week his senior year.

Originally posted by nael
that's why i say it is okay to bust a kid's ass now so he can relax a bit more in college.

These two are not coherent I dont think

nael · Post by **nael** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 9:35 am

well, the two make sense in my case.
my school was a complete waste of time. i wasn't going to learn anything by going to class. example:
my so called chemistry class...the teacher would play a movie during class, and write on the board, "thanks to electrons, we can can watch TV". when it came time to take a test, the day before she would read out each question followed by its answer. this was our "study session", and we could use our notes on the test.
I did have one great teacher/class that i learned a lot from/in, and that was my AP calculus class. but even in that class, the administration required that he spend at least two weeks covering the retarded standardized tests. so, in our calculus class, we would have to take time out to review what 1+1 was.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:19 am

School, at least what most nations define as "public school" (though I think the British still use the term to define private schools), is a bizarre kind of socializing experience where you are basically taught to hate information, regurgitate without learning, and obey orders. My own creatively opening experiences all occurred outside school, as you might guess.

Equal say for the other side: my wife points out to me repeatedly that not all public school experiences are anywhere near this bad. True; but even a basically fun time does not add up to one that encourages a thirst for knowledge, an understanding of the basic principles of logic, and a realization that life outside a computer or tv can be more than just a kick in the pants.

It's funny when you think about it. You're popped out, and your folks spend several years trying to impress upon your young mind that you're somebody special. Then they send you to a place where they attempt to demonstrate with enormous resources that you're just one in a crowd, whose thoughts and feelings don't amount to a hill of test papers. Confusing, ain't it?

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:46 pm

@fable, that's an interesting point... The main problem with schools is IMO that you get saturated with so much information that you lose your thurst for new knowledge. The fact that you are forced to study subjects which you might not find interesting, thus depriving you of valuble time which you could use studying something else doesn't help. The more interesting you find a subject the more of it you can absorb of it on a daily basis without getting sick of it

. For example I simply loathe German. I can't concentrate for 10 minutes on German. But I can remain focused on my economics homework so much that I don't feel the time passing. Same with graphic design. I can play around with an image in photoshop, or read tutorials/guides for hours without getting bored. But give me a text to read in german and I'm off to GB posting again

(actually at this very moment I have a german book in my lap, which I'm supposed to be reading)

However, if we could all deceide exactly what and how much we wanted to study, I'll bet that we'll be a nation of illiterates.

speedball · Post by **speedball** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 11:17 am

@corsair

I feel your pain. My parents were never quite as strict as you say your mom is (grounding you for homework grades), but I had many a arguement/fight with my parents over my grades as well.

The best advice I could offer would be to try to talk to your mom about this calmly and rationally, as Fable suggested. While it can be very very hard to do, this is your best chance to show her that you understand her concerns and are trying your best, but that you aren't perfect and cannot ALWAYS meet her expectations.

Other than that, just keep doing your best. Don't get too wrapped up in what others expect from you. As long as you are honest with yourself about what you can accomplish, then you will be good to go.

* gets down off soapbox *

speedball · Post by **speedball** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 11:34 am

Just wanted to present an opposing viewpoint to some of what has been said here...

While there are certainly bad schools/school systems in the US, there are also some that are excellent. I was lucky enough to be in one of those systems, and I enjoyed a lot of my time spent there.

The Z · Post by **The Z** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 9:02 pm

I'll just say that it looks like the R-Complex is regaining power in society over the neo-cortex.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:35 pm

I think parental strictness is less of a factor if the parents are heavily involved in making a family with their child/children. I've known couples that are certainly not very permissive with their offspring, but the fact that they constantly discuss problems, keep (relatively) open minds, and actually listen makes a great deal of difference. An policy of strictness or laxness can seem arbitrarily imposed from outside, whereas a close family in which parents and children are affectionate friends makes rules more natural.

Of course, this works against modern Western cultural goals, which tend to pull families in the directions of diverse outside interests, peer groups, and consumerism. A family, to me, is about commitment, however. Without it, a couple has no business birthing and raising kids, IMO.

Scayde · Post by **Scayde** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:21 pm

I think it depends on the kid really. I know if I brought home B's, my parents were ticked, and rightly so. I was sandbagging. I could make A's just turning the work in. My sister however had to struggle to maintane a C average, and that was with my help. They never got after her. She was doing her best. Some kids are just good at taking tests. I was one of those. Some have to actually 'learn' the material. She was one of those. If anything, it is sad the schools aren't more equipped to meet each childs needs on a more individual basis, instead of cramming 33 kids in a room and feeding them all the same info, in the same way, and expecting them all to process it, digest it, and feed it back in the form of graded work that again is judged in cookie cutter fashion. Unfortunately, I don't have any more answers than the schools or I would share them with you

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 6:23 pm

@Scayde, I am with you there. My son is of a younger age than the discussion here, but I have had recent concerns. He has - this September - moved into junior school (aged 8) from infants. We anticipated slightly more homework (and though this is another arguement completely, I am not a great supporter of "homework" per se) But I looked at the level of work (academic wise) he was suddenly bringing home, and wondered if this was indicative of the level of schoolwork he was getting.

This is a kid that achieved highly, and is suddenly given work he was doing with ease some two years ago. Now, don't get me wrong, if his schooling level is appropriate, I don't mind the homework being easy...but he is already complaining of being bored in school - this is where I involve myself.

I sense there may come a time when this little boy does not think it cool to read, or to write stories, but whilst I have this advantage that is his interest and also something he does not feel overly challenged by, I would like to take advantage...

His teacher (who is not only new to this school, but new to teaching) reassures me she is gradually getting to know each child, and their abilities. I am happy with this, but I hope it is before he gets too distracted *sigh*

@Fable, I agree, all education is started from home, and hopefully supported from home...

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:00 pm

My parents never paid any attention to my grades. I guess they figured there weren't any problems as long as I went to school every day. I have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand, I didn't have to worry about my parents breathing down my neck (at least, not when it came to school), but on the other hand, they never encouraged me to do anything. I guess they figured it was out of their hands, but the truth is, they could have made a difference if they had wanted to.

Originally posted by nael
my school was a complete waste of time. i wasn't going to learn anything by going to class. example:
my so called chemistry class...the teacher would play a movie during class, and write on the board, "thanks to electrons, we can can watch TV". when it came time to take a test, the day before she would read out each question followed by its answer. this was our "study session", and we could use our notes on the test.

I assume you went to school in Texas (like I did), so I'm not surprised. It sounds like your academic classes were taught by P.E. coaches, like some of mine were.

But fortunately, not all of my classes were a joke, and I read all of the textbooks even when I didn't have to. (A lot of people wondered how I did so well on tests, so I told them, "It always helps to read the chapter," which is something that obviously never occurred to most of them.) I guess I learned enough to make my attendance worthwhile, but it would have been a lot better if we'd had better teachers.