High-level clerics really necessary? (slight spoiler)

megamole · Post by **megamole** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:00 am

Clerics exist for healing. They're clearly vital at low levels when one hit (especially if prone) can murder you. However, do remember two things which I used to great advantage in my last game.

[1] Bards can heal (though not spontaneously cast) - and Cure Light Wounds is a 1st level bard spell.
[2] Bards can get the Craft Wand feat at 3rd level.
[3] Bards can do other cool stuff too.
[4] Druids are totally unsuited to the type of game this is - little if any wilderness encounters/adventuring.
[5] Any Good party will have someone with at least some paladin levels to turn undead and help out with healing.
[6] A Wand of Cure Moderate costs negligible XP and has something like 25-30 charges.

Thus, for a Neutral-Good or Chaotic-Good party (my favourite alignments) I suggest members be:

Cleric 3 (early on)/Fighter 7 : starts as main healer and turner, then kicks heads. I suggest War and Good (or Protection) as domains.
Paladin 7/Fighter 3 : Becomes main turner, and backup emergency healer.
Bard 7-9/Fighter 1-3 : takes Craft Wand and all the Bow feats, ending up with Manyshot from his fighter levels. Doesn't need to front-load the social skills, as the Sorcerer can help with that.
Sorcerer 10 (remember to take Scribe Scroll!) Party spokesman.
Rogue 3/Wizard 7 or Ranger 5/Rogue 5. Depends whether you favour brain or brawn.

Use Wands of Cure Moderate for healing, and destroy your enemies. Use Wands of Knock for opening locks and dispense with the need for a Rogue. As you can see, the only truly indispensable classes are Fighter and Mage (Wizard/Sorcerer).

Take Elmo along as an NPC.

Ravor · Post by **Ravor** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:54 am

Well, I am happy with my Cleric of Pelor, who doubles as the party's Tank as my Rouge/Fighter Feints and Sneak Attacks in her Elven Chainmail and Longsword. However, in this game I'm not sure that you can say that all good parties will have a Paladin considering that the mere fact of having a Paladin blocks you from completing many of the quests in the game, even many that in my opinion aren't necessarily 'evil', at least if you don't want to keep redeeming him for ~10,000 Gold at a time.

Besides, many people, including myself simply don't like Paladins for some reason or another.

shogun13h · Post by **shogun13h** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:09 pm

Well a high level cleric can revive dead characters, so you don't have to pay a lot of money to revive someone. Besides you didnt mention Cure Serious wounds or cure critical wounds the cleric also has. A rogue can make a better party spokesman than a sorcerer.

megamole · Post by **megamole** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:52 am

Bards make better spokesmen than either.

Also, I don't let my characters die.

Don't get me wrong, I like clerics normally and in PnP. Whenever I had to pick a character for sheer indestructibility in AD+D games such as BGII, a Dwarven Fighter/Cleric was the first name on my party roster. My liking for such characters dates from Ravenloft, where the Dwarf F/C was the last man standing at the end and had only lost half his HP.

Undead Hunter Paladins and Elven Fighter/Thieves also kicked ass. See my BGII Perfect Party suggestions (No. 6) for an example.

But this is a very different game from BGII with different, and unfortunately simpler, priorities. The only indispensable high-level cleric spell can be cast by Wizards and Sorcerers anyway.

The Bishop · Post by **The Bishop** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 8:53 am

But clerics are the best fighters

I'm serious, in both my flatmate's and my games our clerics have:
Most damage (both using x3 crit);
Most kills;
Most criticals;
Most consecutive hits.

The clerics for some weird reason in our games seem to run circles around and sometimes over our fighters and barbarians. Thus in my estimate, it's the fighter types that you can most do without. You've got clerics.

Ravor · Post by **Ravor** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:11 am

But this is a very different game from BGII with different, and unfortunately simpler, priorities. The only indispensable high-level cleric spell can be cast by Wizards and Sorcerers anyway.

Aye, however even so you still have the problem of not being able to partake in many of the game's quests if you have a Paladin (As well as only being able to have a Lawful Good, Neutral Good, or Lawful Neutral Party Alignment.), which in my opinion counts for a lot. Besides, personally, I've found that the higher level healing spells are sometimes worth their wieght in gold, as my Front line cleric can usually prevent on of my characters from dying if he or she gets smacked with a critical hit of a nasty spell and thus prevent me from reloading.

Earl Grey 1 · Post by **Earl Grey 1** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 6:34 pm

Who crafts the weapons, if not the cleric?

Clerics are not better at melee than fighters. What are you doing to get that result? Are your clerics buffing themselves instead of buffing the fighters?

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 6:56 pm

Originally posted by Earl Grey 1
Who crafts the weapons, if not the cleric?

Clerics are not better at melee than fighters. What are you doing to get that result? Are your clerics buffing themselves instead of buffing the fighters?

Wizards and Sorcerors definitely can. Possibly Druids as well.

Still, Clerics (depending upon deity, domains, and Alignment) can cast spells like 'Holy Smite' and 'Order's Wrath' (Both if that cleric has the Law and Good domains and reaches 7th level), and ONLY they can enchant those spells on weapons.

Hope that helps.

Edit: Just found out that I my Lvl 7 Cleric could enchant the Holy status on a weapon. Sweet.

I'd suppose that a cleric with the Law domain could cast 'Order's Wrath' at 7th level as well.

Earl Grey 1 · Post by **Earl Grey 1** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:35 am

My point was that clerics are the best class for crafting weapons. The only exception I can think of is if you run a CE party, in which case both Holy and Axiomatic is unavailable.
Well, that and that fighters are better at melee than clerics unless the cleric buffs himself instead of the fighters.

The Bishop · Post by **The Bishop** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:36 am

Earl Grey 1

Well yeah looking at their stats it should be the other way around.
Fighter has higher strength, con, base attack, better weapon etc. But none of that matters. The cleric always comes out in battle doing the most damage, hitting the most often, and scoring the most critical hits. I dunno, maybe the gods favour them so their rolls are just always higher.

Earl Grey 1 · Post by **Earl Grey 1** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:14 am

Re: Earl Grey 1

Originally posted by The Bishop
... none of that matters. The cleric always comes out in battle doing the most damage, hitting the most often, and scoring the most critical hits... maybe the gods favour them so their rolls are just always higher.

Now you're just being silly.

The Bishop · Post by **The Bishop** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:36 pm

Yeah, but it still happens

I remember one time, cleric cast bull strength on fighter, wizard cast enlarge person, fighter drank potion of haste and charged into battle.
Low and behold it took me about 6 or 7 attacks to even find out this guy's ac (as it doesn't tell you when you roll a 1)
As it turned out I could hit him... if I rolled a 2. My cleric with his attack rating however, needed a 7 or 8, or somewhere around there.
Right screw it, I got my cleric to charge in.
Critical hit.
Next round, critical hit.
Next round, one more critical hit finishes the job.
Cleric then heals the poor fighter of all the damage taken and the adventure continues... with the fighter suitably humbled.

Sure it doesn't happen like that often... or even more than once in my experience, but the general trend is still there.

Ravor · Post by **Ravor** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 8:57 pm

Aye, however bear in mind that *any* character can get lucky with die rolls, so while recounting such war stories are very entertaining (And I enjoyed your's very much, thank you for sharing it.), they don't hold water in a discussion over which class makes a better front line fighter.

AncientGreyelf · Post by **AncientGreyelf** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:42 am

cleric

My cleric has used plate,elven chain.Caries the staff of smitting and creats things.then fills in the fighter ranks when needed.I had the npc bard in the party for a short time and was usefull for sleep spell,then decided I didn't need a bard.I do have a paladin and a thief.The thief gets some great attacks.The paladin could be replaced with just a fighter though in this game.

The Bishop · Post by **The Bishop** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:24 am

Ahh but the true point doth reveal itself

In that, yes sure I admit it. Fighters are actually better fighters than clerics. But clerics in their own right are good in combat.
And not only this, they have a large horde of spells to choose from (Not having to find them like the Wizard), has decent hit points, can spontaniously cast cure/inflict spells, can turn/rebuke undead and has a much healthier selection of class skills than fighters do. (Hmm... my sentance structure seems to have fallen down somewhere in there....)
They're too diverse to do without. He's the support character, the guy who can do almost anything... and frequently does.
It's quite tempting to ditch the fighter all together and have two clerics instead.

Ravor · Post by **Ravor** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:54 am

Oh, I fully agree that at least one Cleric is a must have in any party (Well, in this game at least considering that I have yet to play with a single Cleric in the Baldur's Gate Series.

), for all the same reasons that you've stated. In fact, in my party, my Cleric is the primary front line fighter in Plate, a Tower Shield and the biggest Mace I could find (And later Craft.) for him, with my Rouge/Fighter wearing Elven Chain (And I believe the Ring of Protection) and weilding a Longsword without a Shield only able to hold her own in kills/ect by Feinting and Sneak Attacking every round, and using Combat Experise/Tumbling to leap around the battlefield at will.

*Edit* Oh, just thought I should poiunt out that she still beats the Cleric in the number of Kills, although he has more consecative hits then she does.

bently · Post by **bently** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 8:06 pm

I have also noticed my cleric connects alot more often than my melee (with them having a str of 23, and he with his lowly 15), but not as hard.

However, he literally gets raped by higher end creatures that triple hit for 14-25. IMO nothing replaces a good old fighter with 130+ hp and 25+ AC.

I take him for the pure healing power he provides in combat.

The Bishop · Post by **The Bishop** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:21 am

For pure damage...

and AC... nothing goes past rescuring the prince and getting the prize.

A weapon that always hits... hmm, I guess that means if I power attack for everything... expertise for 5... and just as a little added extra, fight defensively and have ranks in tumble.
My AC suddenly becomes 32... 33 with dodge thrown in... 37 if I fail my tumble check when moving in.

Try and hit me.. I dare ya.

Critical hit, dead. Damn.
Consecutive 20s still get ya.

Hmm... a little off topic there.