What role does our brain play in defining us as humans?
Is the brain all that determines who we are? Personality, behaviour, etc... If we copy a person atom-per-atom would the new person be the exact same as the old one? What if we just transfer the brain from one person to another... would that make the new person think and behave the same way as the old one?
Or do you believe in some sort of spirituality? Do you think that it's not the brain that defines us but the soul?
Discuss.
Oh, and spam lite.
edit=> fixed the title because it made less sense the the content...
edit2=> fixed the title again because it still made no sense. I'm tired...
What role does our brain play defining us as humans?
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Vicsun
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What role does our brain play defining us as humans?
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Ode to a Grasshopper
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Interesting topic
I seem to recall reading somewhere that clones of the same people could potentially have vastly different personalities. That said, I'm not sure where I read it (don't take drugs kiddies, they ruin your memory ), so as usual must appeal to our ever-beautiful board bimbo Dr. Elegans for more info on this, if she can help.
I guess another point worth considering is upbringing, which plays quite a role in determining who we are too.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that clones of the same people could potentially have vastly different personalities. That said, I'm not sure where I read it (don't take drugs kiddies, they ruin your memory
), so as usual must appeal to our ever-beautiful board bimbo Dr. Elegans for more info on this, if she can help.I guess another point worth considering is upbringing, which plays quite a role in determining who we are too.
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Re: Interesting topic
as for the original question I don't belive that the brain controls everything in your body... I'm not altogether sure but normal body reflexes have a tendensy to operate differently inbetween individuals and I don't know if this intellect is in the brain or not, it would sortof be a buil in low level intelligence in the muscle that reacts to signals sent from the brain neurons in different ways depending on what you have experianced in your life... and hence if only the brain is copied from one person to another the person with the copied brain would still retain some of his/hers built in reflexes and therefore not be the same....
ofcourse (atleast I think it's ofcourse) after being exposed to the world for only two or three seconds the clone will start to develop their own personanity from what happens to them and as time passes by more and more will differentiate the persons
as for a soul.... I've found little evidence that there's anything as supernatural as that controlling us...I'm still pretty young though so I've got alot of time to find out and I really hope I will.... it's been bothering me for some time now....
yes... but if you copy an adult and see how alike they are just after creation you would probably get a completely different result than if you raise two clones from childhood and then compare them when they grow up......Originally posted by das_hermit
I guess another point worth considering is upbringing, which plays quite a role in determining who we are too.
as for the original question I don't belive that the brain controls everything in your body... I'm not altogether sure but normal body reflexes have a tendensy to operate differently inbetween individuals and I don't know if this intellect is in the brain or not, it would sortof be a buil in low level intelligence in the muscle that reacts to signals sent from the brain neurons in different ways depending on what you have experianced in your life... and hence if only the brain is copied from one person to another the person with the copied brain would still retain some of his/hers built in reflexes and therefore not be the same....
ofcourse (atleast I think it's ofcourse) after being exposed to the world for only two or three seconds the clone will start to develop their own personanity from what happens to them and as time passes by more and more will differentiate the persons
as for a soul.... I've found little evidence that there's anything as supernatural as that controlling us...I'm still pretty young though so I've got alot of time to find out and I really hope I will.... it's been bothering me for some time now....
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ObsidianReturns
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This gets me thinking, by transfering a brain to a different body, k, impossible, but for sake of argument
They would probably be hugely uncoordinated, think about it, unless the body was identical to your old one, even the simplest tasks would require vast concentration. Imagine typing if your new fingers were half a cm shorter than your old fingers.
Another cool idea, is that people would see you differently, perhaps your new body is extremely attractive, other peoples perceptions of you would be different, which over time would probably change your opinion of yourself.
They would probably be hugely uncoordinated, think about it, unless the body was identical to your old one, even the simplest tasks would require vast concentration. Imagine typing if your new fingers were half a cm shorter than your old fingers.
Another cool idea, is that people would see you differently, perhaps your new body is extremely attractive, other peoples perceptions of you would be different, which over time would probably change your opinion of yourself.
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Sorry, should have posted here much earlier...
My answer to the initial question, "What role does our brain play defining us as humans", is everything. A human being is not only definied by it's brain, but all that is exclusively human, behaviours and characteristics that we do not share with other species, are functions of our brain.
Basic personality traits are inherited to about 50%. The rest is determined by different environmental factors that include everything from sociocultural learning to infections in the mother during the prenatal stage. So called G-factor, general intelligence, is also inherited to 50%. In monozygotic twins, who share both identical genes and the same upbringing, the concordance is very, very high and their brains also look very similar anatomically - chemically, regarding levels and distribution of different signal substances that affect our behaviour and functions extensively, it is not know how much is genetically determined in humans (I am presently investigating this question).
However, personality traits and cognitive functions are only part of what we are. And the brain does not govern everything in our bodies, and Garaz correctly points out. Many functions sensorymotor functions like reflexes, are controlled by the spinal cord, for instance. Also, many functions are interactive, the body projects at the brain and the brain signals back, so to speak. This means IMO that if you copy a person particle by particle, and you copy the whole body, it will be the same person. If you copy only the brain and not the rest of the body, there will be a lot of confusion in the extremely complex neurochemical wiring, just as Garaz and Obsidian examplifies. Just think of the "phantom limb" phenomenon, people who amputate a limb can get pain and other sensations from the removed limb for years after the removal, because the brain map and the brain-body wiring of this limb is still there.
And of course - cloning only get you an organism that is genetically identical to you, just like monozygotic twins. The long chain of events that leads to actual human behaviour includes many, many steps: the genes code for proteins, and those proteins are then transcribed into other sets of events, which in turn are building stones of other patterns of events. The so called "postgenomics", ie everything that happens after the genetic make-up is determined, is really what determines most of the features we identify as typically human. Genes were the beginning - proteomics is the continuation.
My answer to the initial question, "What role does our brain play defining us as humans", is everything. A human being is not only definied by it's brain, but all that is exclusively human, behaviours and characteristics that we do not share with other species, are functions of our brain.
Basic personality traits are inherited to about 50%. The rest is determined by different environmental factors that include everything from sociocultural learning to infections in the mother during the prenatal stage. So called G-factor, general intelligence, is also inherited to 50%. In monozygotic twins, who share both identical genes and the same upbringing, the concordance is very, very high and their brains also look very similar anatomically - chemically, regarding levels and distribution of different signal substances that affect our behaviour and functions extensively, it is not know how much is genetically determined in humans (I am presently investigating this question).
However, personality traits and cognitive functions are only part of what we are. And the brain does not govern everything in our bodies, and Garaz correctly points out. Many functions sensorymotor functions like reflexes, are controlled by the spinal cord, for instance. Also, many functions are interactive, the body projects at the brain and the brain signals back, so to speak. This means IMO that if you copy a person particle by particle, and you copy the whole body, it will be the same person. If you copy only the brain and not the rest of the body, there will be a lot of confusion in the extremely complex neurochemical wiring, just as Garaz and Obsidian examplifies. Just think of the "phantom limb" phenomenon, people who amputate a limb can get pain and other sensations from the removed limb for years after the removal, because the brain map and the brain-body wiring of this limb is still there.
And of course - cloning only get you an organism that is genetically identical to you, just like monozygotic twins. The long chain of events that leads to actual human behaviour includes many, many steps: the genes code for proteins, and those proteins are then transcribed into other sets of events, which in turn are building stones of other patterns of events. The so called "postgenomics", ie everything that happens after the genetic make-up is determined, is really what determines most of the features we identify as typically human. Genes were the beginning - proteomics is the continuation.
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Re: What role does our brain play in defining us as humans?
Oh, I forgot:
I do believe people have subjective spiritual experiences. However, I am convinced these experiences emanate from the human brain and not from an objectively existing transcendent dimensions or world. My view is that the emotional and cognitive phenomena humans can experience, that is intepreted by some as religious of spiritual events, are aspects of functions that has had a survival value during evolution. Thus, I do not believe in the existance of an immaterial "soul", something that is not 100% correlated to our neurobiology.
Oh, I forgot:
Originally posted by Vicsun
Or do you believe in some sort of spirituality? Do you think that it's not the brain that defines us but the soul?
I do believe people have subjective spiritual experiences. However, I am convinced these experiences emanate from the human brain and not from an objectively existing transcendent dimensions or world. My view is that the emotional and cognitive phenomena humans can experience, that is intepreted by some as religious of spiritual events, are aspects of functions that has had a survival value during evolution. Thus, I do not believe in the existance of an immaterial "soul", something that is not 100% correlated to our neurobiology.
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance." - Hippocrates
Moderator of Planescape: Torment, Diablo I & II and Dungeon Siege forums
Interesting topic, and one that brings to mind a novel analogy.
Utilizing the proper schematics, a manufacturing facility may produce a particular product - such as a car, for example - over and over again, each virtually identical to one another in all aspects. At this point, there really is no separating one from the other, for all are rather basic...lacking trim packages, exterior paint, decals, etc.
This is how I view the case of a human clone, btw. Same materials and construction technique, same outcome.
After this point, however, drastic changes occur to each individual car. Suddenly they are not all the same at this point, each receiving a different treatment by the finishing areas of the manufacturing facility according to the needs of the various distribution plans that exist for these automobiles.
This is what happens to us in our childhood, I think. While our brain determines basic form in many ways, the input from our environment and the psychological impact it has on us can be in many cases a more powerful influence on the human being than our genetic make-up.
Once these cars reach their respective owners, further changes occur. The affects of usage and possible alterations over time further serve to distinguish one from the other, in the end creating a disparate and diverse group that is very different from each other. One car was kept in a garage most of the time, while another was used to transport a sports team to and from their games...
I don't feel that the "hard wiring" of our brains alone determine who we are, for although genetics play a pivotal role when it comes to our health, weight management, eye color, etc, the subtle and cumulative interplay of emotions and subjective input over a lifetime is what makes each person a unique being separate and distinct from one another. Regardless of how we classify such things as spirituality, the power of their influence upon the human organism cannot be denied. Such things can drastically alter behaviors and lifestyles. That these things may leave an indeliable imprint upon our biochemical makeup might also be possible...but the ability to detect, measure, and quantify such things in a concrete manner is surely beyond modern science at this time. Perhaps one day it might be possible to recreate a perfectly identical copy of a human being...though I still stubbornly hold out that such a copy would yet be imperfect as I feel reality itself can never fully be understood...only bits and pieces at any given time, as it were. The only constant in the universe: nothing is constant.
Utilizing the proper schematics, a manufacturing facility may produce a particular product - such as a car, for example - over and over again, each virtually identical to one another in all aspects. At this point, there really is no separating one from the other, for all are rather basic...lacking trim packages, exterior paint, decals, etc.
This is how I view the case of a human clone, btw. Same materials and construction technique, same outcome.
After this point, however, drastic changes occur to each individual car. Suddenly they are not all the same at this point, each receiving a different treatment by the finishing areas of the manufacturing facility according to the needs of the various distribution plans that exist for these automobiles.
This is what happens to us in our childhood, I think. While our brain determines basic form in many ways, the input from our environment and the psychological impact it has on us can be in many cases a more powerful influence on the human being than our genetic make-up.
Once these cars reach their respective owners, further changes occur. The affects of usage and possible alterations over time further serve to distinguish one from the other, in the end creating a disparate and diverse group that is very different from each other. One car was kept in a garage most of the time, while another was used to transport a sports team to and from their games...
I don't feel that the "hard wiring" of our brains alone determine who we are, for although genetics play a pivotal role when it comes to our health, weight management, eye color, etc, the subtle and cumulative interplay of emotions and subjective input over a lifetime is what makes each person a unique being separate and distinct from one another. Regardless of how we classify such things as spirituality, the power of their influence upon the human organism cannot be denied. Such things can drastically alter behaviors and lifestyles. That these things may leave an indeliable imprint upon our biochemical makeup might also be possible...but the ability to detect, measure, and quantify such things in a concrete manner is surely beyond modern science at this time. Perhaps one day it might be possible to recreate a perfectly identical copy of a human being...though I still stubbornly hold out that such a copy would yet be imperfect as I feel reality itself can never fully be understood...only bits and pieces at any given time, as it were. The only constant in the universe: nothing is constant.
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-[url="http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/a.html"]The Devil's Dictionary[/url]
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
-[url="http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/a.html"]The Devil's Dictionary[/url]
I think that the distinction between the genetic 'hard wiring' of the brain, and subjective, or personal experience is a bit of a false one.
What can we define our experiences as?
Events in the objective world, it is agreed, but in experiential terms, what happens to us can only be defined by the results it has on our brain. Phantom limb syndrome shows us that experience is in the brain.
So then what about past experiences? Past experiences are not the effects of objects on the brain, because there are no past objects.
Past experiences are defined by the lasting effects that they have on the brain. A memory, or an emotional reaction is a configuration of neuron-connections; chemical and electrical reactions in the brain.
I think that experiences are constantly 'wiring' themselves into our brains, even to the extent that two newborn clones would already have very different brain configurations, and hence personalities.
So I do believe that the brain and body, rather than the soul or mind, govern all our behaviour, and I do not believe in any spiritual elements in people, but I think that cloning two people to have the same personalities is impossible.
What can we define our experiences as?
Events in the objective world, it is agreed, but in experiential terms, what happens to us can only be defined by the results it has on our brain. Phantom limb syndrome shows us that experience is in the brain.
So then what about past experiences? Past experiences are not the effects of objects on the brain, because there are no past objects.
Past experiences are defined by the lasting effects that they have on the brain. A memory, or an emotional reaction is a configuration of neuron-connections; chemical and electrical reactions in the brain.
I think that experiences are constantly 'wiring' themselves into our brains, even to the extent that two newborn clones would already have very different brain configurations, and hence personalities.
So I do believe that the brain and body, rather than the soul or mind, govern all our behaviour, and I do not believe in any spiritual elements in people, but I think that cloning two people to have the same personalities is impossible.
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