Force Mastery benefits? [Some might consider it a SPOILER]

Adm. Pellaeon · Post by **Adm. Pellaeon** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:31 pm

I haven't been able to find the answer in the GB forums ... hopefully someone here can give me the answers I seek.

1. Light Side Mastery and Dark Side Mastery do something, but I'd swear they aren't described in the manual. I could be wrong, but I don't remember seeing anything. I know, using LSM as an example, you get the pillar of light behind you. I thought I saw somewhere that LSM players get stat bonuses and DSM players get things like poison immunity, based on the class of Jedi. True? If so/if not, what's the benny on the Mastery status?

(Other than the maximum percentage decrease in that side's powers and the nifty background...)

2. Do LSM/DSM benefits apply to all Jedi in your party, or only to your character? I.E., if my Jedi Guardian has Light Side Mastery, will Bastila get the Jedi Sentinel LSM benefits as well? Even better, will Jolee Bindo -- the neutral Jedi Counselor -- get the LSM benefits? (Bastila is, normally, a lightsider. After all, Jolee isn't, by choice.)

Thanks!

Darth Anubis · Post by **Darth Anubis** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:33 am

Benefits only go to the one character. The effects of the Dark or Light Side:

-Character viewing screen is changed
-Cost for Force powers from different sides is raised and lowered
-You character looks different

That's it. Things like added defense bonuses just are things that Sentinels get as one of their special feats.

Adm. Pellaeon · Post by **Adm. Pellaeon** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 12:50 pm

I appreciate the info, Anubis. I hit LSM last night and saw my character get his bonus, and Bastila not getting anything.

For reference, if anyone out there is wondering any of the details, I've been able to glean this so far:

LSM
Guardian: +3 STR

Profound, isn't it? If anyone has further details they'd like to share...

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:55 pm

Are you certain that's related to LSM? A Guardian gains a +1 attack bonus with every level. I don't see anything about a STR bonus.

Nospmas · Post by **Nospmas** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 8:08 pm

Light side

Guardian -- +3 str
Sentinel -- +3 con
Consular -- +3 cha

Dark side

Guardian -- +1-10 damage (i think)
Sentinel -- Poison immunity
Consular -- +50 to force pool

I think these are the bonuses for the mastery of each side.

Darth Anubis · Post by **Darth Anubis** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:50 pm

How do you know it's even mastery? The game never even uses those terms. It could be called the bunny rabbit bonus for all you know. My guess is the action that gave you light/dark side points also gave you enough experience to level up.

Adm. Pellaeon · Post by **Adm. Pellaeon** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:59 pm

Originally posted by Darth Anubis
How do you know it's even mastery? The game never even uses those terms.

I know that it's Light Side Mastery because the manual tells me so. On the character screen, the same one with the column of light behind my portrait, the top-most status icon is this strange blue-and-white icon, which has been described by others as a pair of hands (artistic license). On page 48 of the manual (PC version, unknown if the XBOX manual is identical), that icon, which is the second one listed, is described as Character has obtained light side mastery bonus.

Also, it's not a function of level, since it's very easy to lose the bonus ... just do a dark deed (SPOILER Genoharadan missions are easy examples) and the nifty benefit goes away. I got my +3 STR out of the blue, and it appeared mid-level (I think I was about 5,000 XP short of whatever the next level needed when I first noticed it, and it wasn't there before).

Regardless, thanks, Nospmas, for providing all the details.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 3:35 pm

Originally posted by Adm. Pellaeon
Also, it's not a function of level, since it's very easy to lose the bonus ...

Probably a function of accumulated light/dark deed points: easily lost, but easily regained, if you pass a certain threshhold. Of course, there are always temptations to stray. If you're dark, you might want the experience points of certain quest opportunities that give you light points; and if you're light, you still might be intrigued by the goodies gathered from working for a certain outside group (not to give anything away to anybody who doesn't want to know). In either case, you can still make up the difference by trying hard.

Darth Anubis · Post by **Darth Anubis** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 6:55 pm

Well that would definitely explain it. Must be a PC thing. Maybe they'll add it once the Downloadable Content comes out.

Nexus · Post by **Nexus** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:23 am

Originally posted by fable
Probably a function of accumulated light/dark deed points: easily lost, but easily regained, if you pass a certain threshhold. Of course, there are always temptations to stray. If you're dark, you might want the experience points of certain quest opportunities that give you light points; and if you're light, you still might be intrigued by the goodies gathered from working for a certain outside group (not to give anything away to anybody who doesn't want to know). In either case, you can still make up the difference by trying hard.

I personally play accordingly to my chosen side. I've just aquired the Light Side Mastery (with a +3 charisma due to my Consular class) and during my game I've only gained one Dark Side point killing the Mandalorian gladiator (in the arena). I never felt the need to play evil. However, after I've finished this game, I will play again with a Dark Jedi (not an easy task for me, it's against my nature) forcing me to be always evil.

It could be interesting, however, playing a neutral Jedi, like Jolee. Maybe the game has something in store for this kind of characters.

Adm. Pellaeon · Post by **Adm. Pellaeon** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:41 am

Nexus, I agree ... I don't usually play evil characters. Too hard on the old moral compass.

I got my only DS points just like you did ... in killing Bendak Starkiller. A couple other times were tempting, that's for sure, but the Jedi Code...

I once ran across a series of posts in Bioware's Baldur's Gate II boards, on the nature of evil in RPGs. The main thrust (by the poster who really looked at it) was that there were two types ... the insane evils, whom the world would consider mad dogs and put down accordingly, and the clever evils, who did dastardly deeds only to forward their own goals, and didn't engage in senseless slaughter. After all, what's the point in insane evil? You just end up getting destroyed. It's the self-interested ones who are the really powerful foes ... or PCs. Besides, which one is more evil, the butcher or the mastermind? If you were going to be evil, would you rather have your hands covered in blood, or have masterminded the downfall of all your enemies and rule a vast empire?

In game play here in KOTOR, I suppose that if you were to follow the "clever evil" path, you wouldn't have to turn the world into a charnel house ... you could just do what would gain you an advantage. Demand extra payment and Force Persuade people to give you what you want, as well as take the violent solution to defeat your enemies ... but leave the common folk alive, since what does it gain you to kill them? OK, that's my two cents. No more philosophy.

Nevertheless, for all that it was interesting theorizing, I've never really been able to choose the dark path in these kinds of games. I guess you just stick with your innate personality...

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:23 am

I can easily see wiggle room for morality in KotoR. A zealously "good" jedi might want to cut down a few opponents of the Republic for a third party; not for the reward, but for to do the Republic a favor--in which case, the dark side points will come as a surprise.

This is the path of "the ends justify the means," a slippery but potentially rewarding slope with a really great view.

It's not a neutral standpoint. It's doing what some might call evil, for the sake of good.

Let's invert this. What is one to make of the completely selfish figure who believes in camoulflage,and fears being a shark in waters infested with a leviathan? Such a person might deliberately fight the Empire with all they've got, in order to better set up their own more modest but planet- or system-wide network of sleaze after the war is over. There's much historical evidence for this posture, even among many past heroes of various nations.

Fascinating subject, this.

Nexus · Post by **Nexus** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:14 am

Originally posted by fable
I can easily see wiggle room for morality in KotoR.

I don't completely agree. Let me explain...

Spoiler

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On Manaan you come across the case of a presumed murderer. Eventually, if you spend some time investigating, you find in the republic embassy's computer the camera recording of the murder scene which reveals the man is guilty. It was difficult for me deciding what to do. In the end I decided to let the judges decide. Since the man (sorry, I don't remember the name

) refused to confess, I omitted his guilt (like a real lawyer) and I let the judges decide revealing only the facts I knew: there were no witnesses and the Sith played it dirt putting a medal on the murder scene. Eventually the court deliberated the man was innocent.

I received no LSP neither DSP.

For the sake of curiosity I loaded a previous game and I informed the court of the man's guilt; well, it gave me no LSP... Obviously there wasn't a way to be really good in this occasion.
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[END OF SPOILER]

I believe the real goodness is a mixture of common sense and need of justice. There's a voice inside me which asks me to do the right thing (which means I am expected to pay the debt of a poor man or to kill the assailants of a young girl). However, the right thing leaves no space for zealotry; I consider zealotry a deviance of the light side, a thing which leads toward the dark path.

For this reason I believe there's only one way to be really good and only one way to be really evil. It seems in KOTOR there's always a way to do the right thing without seeming bad and viceversa.

The fact is KOTOR is a great game...

Adm. Pellaeon · Post by **Adm. Pellaeon** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:21 am

One thing I've been wondering about this masterpiece that is KOTOR is whether there's a path for "good" evil characters, who use their emotions to fuel their force power in service of the Republic. It sounds oxymoronic, but let's look at the case of Jimmy Hoffa, Sr. He was an irredeemable scoundrel and all-round villain. Other than to his family, he's a bad guy.

(For a moment, I put down John Gotti, instead of Hoffa, and I started making references to Sammy "the Bull" Gravano ... wrong underworld magnate.)

But there's one thing you can't deny: he was a loyal American. Even though he ran the Teamsters, one of the most powerful unions in the USA, he never sympathized with the Communist Party. He might have been evil in Jedi/Sith terms, but he was a tried and true citizen...

So, here's my question: Is it possible to play a Dark Jedi in service to the Republic? Someone who's self-interested but has no desire to see the basic political framework destroyed. I figure you can play it as a neutral Jedi, or as close to neutral as you can get when you hit the end-game (Jolee, anyone?), but is it possible to play the "good" Dark Jedi?

It's all hypothetical. I finally beat the game (I lost my save through a glich on my computer, so I had to restart ab initio ... I had to replay everything from Taris through Manaan (M as 3rd planet after leaving Dantooine)) as a Jedi Guardian. I think I'm going to go through as a Jedi Counselor next time, and save my Sith Sentinel for my 3rd run-through, though I might reverse that and do a Jedi Sentinel and Dark Jedi Counselor ... who knows. Whichever I choose, hard as it might be to play evil, I'm going to go for the "elegant evil" route and not be some senseless slaughterer.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:50 pm

I believe the real goodness is a mixture of common sense and need of justice.

@Nexus, I meant only that there are ways to roleplay intents other than the simplistic "I'm noble and good!" "I'm clever and evil!" and "I'm depraved!" in KotoR--that's all.

Hence, my two examples. Yes, Bioware has programmed a simplistic good/evil axis in place--this is, after all, a game aimed at a broader and younger market than, say, PS:T. That doesn't mean any given character of mine has to go along with Bioware's decision, or understand that what they did in disposing of a "criminal" was evil, or that saving a group's life to further his own ultimately nefarious aims was "good."

ProXycF · Post by **ProXycF** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:56 pm

I didn't take the time to read everything others said so i'll just say this

Light side mastery/dark side mastery benefits:
meaning your light/dark point bar is ALL the way up or ALL the way down

Light
Guardian: +3 Str
Sentinal: +3 Con
Consular: +3 Cha

Dark
Guardian: 1d8 extra damage
Sentinal: Poison immunity
Consular: 50 extra force points

Nexus · Post by **Nexus** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:52 am

Originally posted by fable
@Nexus, I meant only that there are ways to roleplay intents other than the simplistic "I'm noble and good!" "I'm clever and evil!" and "I'm depraved!"

Of course, if KOTOR was like a boxed RPG it could be a marvelous experience to play different kind of characters, but actually it feels not right, if not even useless, to stick in the middle, since you acquire a real advantage only if you are on one verge.

Let's wait for the next developments of A.I.