New expansions

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:12 pm

I played singleplayer NWN when it first came out extensively, and grew bored with it. There was very little in the way of roleplaying. The endless barrels/boxes with minor goodies was a major annoyance, and the combat AI for summoned critters and helpers was more of a hindrance than anything else.

Yes, I know most of you probably disagree with me on these points.

But I came here for a reason--to find out whether either of the two expansion packs remedy these three problems in the standalone game. I certainly wouldn't mind purchasing them, if those points were specifically addressed. If not, all the extra weapons, armor, feats, etc, won't make a bit of difference to me.

Comments?

Wolf68 · Post by **Wolf68** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:21 pm

If you did not like the original campaign of NWN (roleplay-wise), then I doubt, that you will like the expansions.
Especially SoU was very annoying for me, since I could not make any important decisions at all. My "master", a weak, old, fat dwarf (who almost got killed by some lvl 1 kobolds) decided what I had to do. I mean, couldn't they make my master a dragon? Or at least a mistress?

I for one liked the OC most, then HotU - where I could play "evil" the best - and I liked SoU the least (again: from a roleplaying perspective).

There are quite some quests and dialogues, where you can act evil or good. But it has little to no impact on the game.

Korvin · Post by **Korvin** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:55 pm

You know, I wasn't all that impressed with original NWN all that much, it was nice and fresh, but that's it....You have a person that gives you an order, you go to three or four different directions, go to dungeons there, and do what you have to do, come back, chapter ends. Kinda boring a little bit.

But I have to tell you, with HotU it's different, it feels like you're moving forward more, like you're constantly in motion. That was a big thing for me. And another huge thing is the compaign feels much more epic, you feel like a hero!

Story line is much better developed, and is MUCH more fun than the original one, if you ask me. You can have 2 henchmen, they interract with eachother more, and I don't feel as lonely as I did in original NWN. If you ask me, HotU is SO MUCH BETTER.

If you like Baldur's Gate, you should probably like this as well. I was looking for a game that gave me that feel of epic quest, that interraction and that storyline, and with this expansion I came close to experiencing this feeling again. Two thumbs up, Bioware.

That's my 50 cents

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 9:39 pm

Korvin, is the combat AI for the henchmen any better than in NWN? If not, then I can only think that two henchmen would be twice as bad as one, and one, frankly, made me wish for none at all. I was amazed that Bioware, knowing Aracnum, would still turn out a combat AI that left you wondering if you'd hired a rogue member of the Three Stooges to do your fighting.

As for story, every RPG I've played, with the exception of Betrayal at Krondor and PS:T, has been thoroughly hackneyed, IMO. I'm far more interested in roleplaying opportunities--the ability to branch out in dialog in many directions that truly matter, to affect individuals in such a way that different factions view you in varying ways, etc. Is there any of this in HotU? Thanks.

Wolf68 · Post by **Wolf68** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:06 am

I'm far more interested in roleplaying opportunities--the ability to branch out in dialog in many directions that truly matter, to affect individuals in such a way that different factions view you in varying ways, etc. Is there any of this in HotU?

A little bit.
I played it through with a neutral evil fighter/blackguard with a good intimitate skill. So I was able to get better rewards for quests and to bypass some fights and discussions simply by threatening others. This way I could even enter the closed mages guild.

I think, that I know, what you mean with factions. Like the Vampires in Baldur's Gate. You can work for them or against them.
Well, there is a similar thing at the end of Chapter 2 in HotU, I won't spoil it for you. But after all - and I am sorry to say that - it has no impact of the ending of Chapter 2.

Regarding henchmen.
No, their pathing and fighting got no better than in OC and SoU. They walk into traps, that you discovered. Sometimes they join the fight too late, sometimes they get stuck. Now in HotU they even start discussions, sometimes at the worst of moments.
But now you can at least equip them with ub0r stuff (you really find godly items in HotU, especially Ch.3). So they are far from useless.
INC minor spoiler! My favorite henchman Grimgnaw is not available in HotU.

I took evil Aribeth in Ch.3, so at least I had not to suffer the romance dialogues, that some people seem to like so much.

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:56 am

So far, I've been enjoying HotU more than I enjoyed the original OC. I think the Henchmen AI has improved a little: they will tend to attack the same guy you're attacking (its logical to take a cue from the leader of the party) and their spell use seems to be better. There are problems still, but it seems slightly better. The interactions between henchmen are more fun, and there seems to be a wide choice of henchmen. Game linearity is slightly improved, with the ability to take on quests in random orders, and not having to complete all the quests. I also really like the music in this expansion - especially in Chapter 2.

It is far, far, better than Temple of Elemental Evil, which I quit after the first level of the dungeon.

I also enjoyed SoU. I didn't feel like I was wasting my time in either of the NWN expansions (unlike the OC, where I finished the game by force of will alone), and I am even tempted to replay HotU, to try out different characters and role-playing directions.

I don't really see why games these days can't come close to the experience that the BG series was. But really, even in those games there were few role-playing options that allowed you to affect the main story. In SoA, for example, you could side with the good guys or side with the bad guys. That's it. It was the varied stories and optional quests of the NPCs that made the game rich.

I would like to try PS:T, but its not available any longer. I didn't play Betrayal at Krondor, but I did play its sequel, which I found very linear and kinda boring. I understand Betrayal at Krondor became a free download at one point - I wonder if it is still available as such?

Korvin · Post by **Korvin** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:40 pm

Well, you have a few more options to be evil, and you can really be an ass to some people, that's for sure

There are some different ways you can go, although they mainly lead to the same resolution, yet the ending story is a bit different depending on some choices you make by the end.

Henchmen are still pretty retarded, but the thing is you can totally control their buffing, more options in their actions, and you can tell them to buff you, or specify what spells you want them to cast, which is often useful, especially if you're playing a straight melee. And the items you can supply them with is a big deal, they become much more efficient because of it. In a difficult fight they'll usually drop dead, but you can resurrect them without a problem, so it's ok. Sometimes I found them annoying, but it wasn't that bad.

And I might add that HotU is just much more entertaining than the orriginal one.

I hope that answers your question.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:20 pm

Originally posted by Gwalchmai
I would like to try PS:T, but its not available any longer. I didn't play Betrayal at Krondor, but I did play its sequel, which I found very linear and kinda boring. I understand Betrayal at Krondor became a free download at one point - I wonder if it is still available as such?

PS:T is available, used, through Yahoo and Amazon. It regularly shows up in both places.

Being better than ToEE is a privilege owned by all but one of the RPGs I've played in the last three years.

Betrayal at Krondor was far better than its two successors, the linear, mediocre Return to Krondor, and the truly abysmal Betrayal at Antara. BaK was not made by the same team. (In fact, Dynamix fired the team that made BaK right after the title was released, and before word caught on of what a great game it was.) It is now abandonware, and can be downloaded legally here.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:20 pm

I just might give the two expansions, then, a try, provided I don't have to play the original to get through to 'em.

Korvin · Post by **Korvin** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:25 am

I kinda heard that SoU sucks, but I haven't played it.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:24 am

SoU was definately much better then the original OC. The henchmen in SoU had more "life" then the original, and there were situations where I found myself laughing due to them.

But generally both SoU and NwN suffers from being way to easy imo - both plotwise and puzzlewise, wich the developer tries to circumvent with throwing in a extra few monsters.

I've not bought HotU yet, so dunno about that one.

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:25 am

Originally posted by fable
PS:T is available, used, through Yahoo and Amazon. It regularly shows up in both places.

Being better than ToEE is a privilege owned by all but one of the RPGs I've played in the last three years.

Betrayal at Krondor was far better than its two successors, the linear, mediocre Return to Krondor, and the truly abysmal Betrayal at Antara. BaK was not made by the same team. (In fact, Dynamix fired the team that made BaK right after the title was released, and before word caught on of what a great game it was.) It is now abandonware, and can be downloaded legally here.

I'll check out the used market for PS:T.

ToEE was such a huge dissappointment for me. I was really looking forward to a true D&D gaming experience, since I haven't been able to play the game PnP style since High School. Also, Buck himself seemed really pumped up for the game. ToEE turned out to be such a straight Hack and Slash that I felt betrayed. It makes me try to re-remember what PnP was like back in the good old days. Maybe it really was just Hack and Slash? If so, I wonder why I bothered. Also, I haven't heard Buck's reaction to the game, and I really would like to hear his opinion. I guess I felt a little betrayed by Gamebanshee on that point as well.

I'll download BaK tonight. Thanks.

It was Betrayal at Antara that I had played before.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:34 am

To bad you live so far away - otherwise I could have shipped my copy of PS:T to you for low cost

(eehh - do you live far away?

)

Dosen't play it anymore

I actually thought of getting Temple of Evil thingy - but after seeing people dissapointed, I think I'll just get HotU instead around new year.

Edit: sorry - OT acutally

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:50 am

Thanks Xan.

I was thinking along the same lines. I might ask T'lainya if she would let me borrow hers, since she lives in the same town as I.

The thing with the NWN expansions is that they add alot to the game, whether its enough is debatable. Since I am at a point in my life where disposable money (in $30 or $40 amounts) is more available to me than it was when I was younger, I really couldn't see why I wouldn't buy the expansions. I may not be wow-ed, but they give me something to do while I'm waiting for the next Uber RPG. Not exactly a glowing review, I know.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:21 am

Originally posted by Gwalchmai
I'll download BaK tonight. Thanks. It was Betrayal at Antara that I had played before.

Oh, that's a truly terrible game. Basically, a VP in charge of production at Dynamix, who had tangled with and ultimately fired the team that did BaK was convinced all he needed to do was have anybody in-house make a larger BaK. Simple! So he engaged a group of programmers without prior game design experience to write and code it. The result was some of the worst, OOC dialog and extraordinarily immature character reactions I've ever seen in a released game. As for the gameplay--simply throwing in more combat at virtually every step of the way, for little if any reason, hardly improved anything. It was a thorough bomb.

But BaK was another matter. It's definitely dated now, but a few things to remember about it while you play it:

1) It was the first CRPG to use chapters to advance a plot.

2) It was the first CRPG that used 3D backgrounds, and ray-traced figures.

3) It was the first CRPG to offer elaborate descriptions when you clicked on any item.

4) It was the first (and IMO, remains the only) CRPG to employ a whole series of truly intelligent puzzles. It's riddle chests and trap mazes have never been matched--nor are they likely to be, from developers who always underestimate the intelligence of their players.

5) Its characters actually changed as you moved through the story. An inn that was deserted in chapter 1 might be full again in chapter 2, as a result of your previous actions.

6) The complexity of the plot was a delight. Unlike so many games, you really don't know what's behind everything until the next to last chapter.