Bedak Starkiller

Kaitsuburi · Post by **Kaitsuburi** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:31 pm

Does anyone know how many DS/LS points get added for each quest?

It is possible, after all, to correct DS/LS inconsistencies in the game using "addlightside x" and "adddarkside x" in the "cheat" console.

-kaitsuburi

Darth Anubis · Post by **Darth Anubis** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:07 pm

Originally posted by Aegis
Such were the ways of old, my Babylonian god

Exactly. Hence the title: Knights of the Old Republic.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:12 pm

Originally posted by Kaitsuburi
It is possible, after all, to correct DS/LS inconsistencies in the game using "addlightside x" and "adddarkside x" in the "cheat" console.

What I'd have liked to have seen was a method of analyzing current ethical "intent" based on previous actions. In other words, if you gave a medpac to the taunted Ithorian, gave the old man (whom the bounty hunters were after) 100 credits and 200 credits to Largo, and gave the rakghoul cure to Zelka, then the system should IMO figure you're now going after Starkiller for something other than credits. In game terms, every time you did something which was monetarily unselfish (like the four actions listed above), an internal meter should additionally increment to note that fact. In realworld terms, if a reputable saint and a known psychotic murderer each kill Starkiller, their current actions should be judged in terms of their past ones, as indications of possible purpose.

Likely, though, KotoR is mod-resistant, at least on that level.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:15 pm

Originally posted by Darth Anubis
Exactly. Hence the title: Knights of the Old Republic.

You're missing it, Darth. Aegis is referring to my somewhat cagey past as a slumming Babylonian god.

(It's old stuff from our spam forum, SYM, Speak Your Mind.)

Such were the ways of old, my Babylonian god.

Yes, but at least I instructed my followers to leave the corpses alone! These supposedly saintly jedi strip everything off their enemies! No class, I tells ya!

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:41 pm

Originally posted by fable
Such were the ways of old, my Babylonian god.

Yes, but at least I instructed my followers to leave the corpses alone! These supposedly saintly jedi strip everything off their enemies! No class, I tells ya!

Well, when in Rome... foul gets Frisky

In game terms, every time you did something which was monetarily unselfish (like the four actions listed above), an internal meter should additionally increment to note that fact. In realworld terms, if a reputable saint and a known psychotic murderer each kill Starkiller, their current actions should be judged in terms of their past ones, as indications of possible purpose.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, the game does have an option similar to this, only more of a weighted scale depending on what your current alignment is. If you're really close to light side, if you do some evil, the DS points are adjusted. Now, I'm not sure what the adjustments are, but I do recall seeing the chart around GB somewhere.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:00 am

Originally posted by Aegis
Actually, if I'm not mistaken, the game does have an option similar to this, only more of a weighted scale depending on what your current alignment is. If you're really close to light side, if you do some evil, the DS points are adjusted. Now, I'm not sure what the adjustments are, but I do recall seeing the chart around GB somewhere.

Not quite the same thing. I'm not suggesting measuring DSP/LSP by previous DS/LS alignment, but breaking down actions into a series of ethical scales (selfishness/selflessness being one; harmony/malice might be another). If you perform a series of four selfless actions that lose you cash, then another action which could be potentially interpreted as mercenary wouldn't award you DSPs at all, because the assumption would be that you're acting from selfless motives. However, such an action would move a counter closer to the "selfish" side of the scale. It's a little like the Fallout/Arcanum good/evil tracker reputation tracker, but as a multi-tiered system looking at several factors. (Not that I expect this kind of ethical complexity to be implemented outside an MMORPG--come to think of it, if I was still working as a designer in one, I'd probably add it to a system.

)

Admo · Post by **Admo** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:02 am

Originally posted by fable
Where does it say in any of KotoR's text that you've agreed to take on Starkiller because of the money? You're never asked to state your reasons. Had they offered you a choice of reasons, and you'd gone with

a) I'm after you, Starkiller, because I need the cash, and I'm...evil!

...then what you say would make sense. But if instead you wish to take on Starkiller because he's a killer--perhaps to avenge the lives he's taken--then of course, you're hardly evil enough to warrant DSPs. Or if you wish to take on the guy simply because he's set the terms of the match, and you wish to meet him on a field of honor to test your strength against his, knowing full well either of you may die--well, that's not evil at all, for it's the code of battle applied in the past by several native American cultures. And they're not inherently evil, either; at least, not IMO.

Feel free to play evil for money, Darth Anubis, if you wish. I hope you'll allow me in turn to play good or evil for whatever suits my purpose in a game, as long as it doesn't run counter to a statement in the text.

or maybe just add the DSP when you collect the money after the battle....

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:40 am

Originally posted by Admo
or maybe just add the DSP when you collect the money after the battle....

True; but that's a bit dodgy, too. I mean, it would be perfectly understandable for a "good" character to take the money and use it to aid others, rather than leaving it in the hands of the Hutt, given his probable connections. I'm not praising such a decision. It's definitely a grey area that's been argued for thousands of years, possibly longer--the more philosophical Romans argued whether it was nobler to shun slavery altogether, or to buy slaves and treat 'em humanely, or to use the money you could receive from slave-run salt mines to do good works for the indigent. But being a grey area, a PC that takes the money from defeating Starkiller won't necessarily deserve DSPs, either.

Nemesis · Post by **Nemesis** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:59 am

...then what you say would make sense. But if instead you wish to take on Starkiller because he's a killer--perhaps to avenge the lives he's taken--then of course, you're hardly evil enough to warrant DSPs.

fear leads to anger .. anger
leads to hate.. hate leads to suffering.. suffering leads to the DARK side

i rest my case

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:18 pm

Originally posted by Nemesis
fear leads to anger .. anger
leads to hate.. hate leads to suffering.. suffering leads to the DARK side

i rest my case

Just where do you get fear, anger, hatred or suffering out of the following?

...then what you say would make sense. But if instead you wish to take on Starkiller because he's a killer--perhaps to avenge the lives he's taken--then of course, you're hardly evil enough to warrant DSPs.

Justice is not based on anger. I also rest my case.

Adm. Pellaeon · Post by **Adm. Pellaeon** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:33 pm

It all depends on what justifies your "avenging." Vengeance is not the same as justice. Vengeance can either be cold and dispassionate or hot and under the influence of emotion. If you were wronged by Bendak and wanted to punish him for, say, killing your brother in a duel, that's emotion. However, if you were the licensed bounty hunter, it's dispassionate.

Along the good-evil continuum, the dispassionate approach is evil, because you're fighting an illegal death-match and you'll be collecting the bounty on his head. He isn't resisting arrest; you've done a cold-blooded deed by setting up what results in his death. That's why there are DSPs attached to this act.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:05 pm

Originally posted by Adm. Pellaeon
It all depends on what justifies your "avenging." Vengeance is not the same as justice. Vengeance can either be cold and dispassionate or hot and under the influence of emotion. If you were wronged by Bendak and wanted to punish him for, say, killing your brother in a duel, that's emotion. However, if you were the licensed bounty hunter, it's dispassionate.

My choice of terms in using "vengeance" was spur-of-the-moment, which (hopefully) would have been realized, since I was generating what-if roleplaying scenarios to explain why DSPs weren't necessarily warranted. And I agree: vengeance wasn't a particularly apt word for what I meant to convey. That being the case, just replace the words as you will, to define a person who administers justice to Starkiller; or as a person willingly lays their life on the line, in an honorable match against a powerful opponent (per my native American example, above). Or any other example that serves the same purpose of indicating why the PC might want to kill Starkiller without deserving DSPs.

Neither of these options involve fear, hatred, anger, or the rest of the stuff derived from a superficial understanding of Buddhism's Third Noble Truth (universal suffering can be transcended through the removal of fear, hatred, and desire). Nemesis, instead of looking for holes in my wording, please consider the issue I've raised: that roleplaying has many aspects which makes the primitive system of DSP/LSP administration seem on occasion wrong-headed and superficial--to me. If you want to disagree, on the other hand, feel free to do so. Unlike some, I'm not laying down a law. I'm just giving my opinion.

Nemesis · Post by **Nemesis** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:21 pm

So am I...

If you would fight bendak for the sake of honor, with no reward except to win, and with him challenging you, yes it would be a good thing to fight him.

So i agree, if you give all the money you get from the fight away and he challenges you without any word from you, you should not gain a dsp

But you are the one that challenges him, meaning that you offer to kill him.. For the money. And that leads us over to the (tadatata tada!) dark side...

He has retired, but you chose to talk to him and knowing the consiquences, you are lured over to the "right" side

So for my own allegiance, i chose to quote metallca:

Am i evil? Yes i am!

But to be entirely correct, i would rather chose the grey side, because the dark side has let their emotions overpower them, and the light side denies their exsistance.

Nem

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:10 pm

Simply put. By facing Bendak, you face him in an illegal death match. Illegal means going against structured ordered, and law, thus is against morale standing, hence the dark side points. The reward, his past, and your ethics have little to do with it. The point is, illegal death match. That's where you get hit with the DSP.

Nemesis · Post by **Nemesis** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:19 pm

even IF it was legal, it would be unethical for a lightside jedi to atend such a battle.. so dsp anyways

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 5:48 pm

Originally posted by Aegis
Simply put. By facing Bendak, you face him in an illegal death match. Illegal means going against structured ordered, and law, thus is against morale standing, hence the dark side points.

You have equated order with good, above. By that logic, going against the law of the Empire on a planet they control is against structured order, hence worthy of dark side points. I don't agree to this automatic correlation between going against whatever power rules and the accumulation of DSPs. Nor do I think the developers agree with you, either, since they award no DSPs when your character explicitly and with knowledge violates the pax of Manaan, invading the Sith stronghold to destroy their troops and steal information.

even IF it was legal, it would be unethical for a lightside jedi to atend such a battle.. so dsp anyways

What, we're back to that, again? I just asked where the fear, anger, hatred, or suffering was in delivering dispassionate justice against Starkiller. You haven't answered. Now you're making a sweeping statement about that battle, again without demonstrating how it's true. How would it be beyond conception that a jedi might dispassionately bring justice to their corner of the universe? And who appointed you DM-of-the-Universe to decide what personalities can be roleplayed, and what can't?

Understand me, please: I'm not suggesting that Bioware's KotoR development team "had no right" to award DSPs to your PC if you chose to face Starkiller in battle. Hey, it's their game. All I'm saying is that such an award assumes intent on your PC's part which might or might not be there, and which a more sophisticated system of ethical analysis could better evaluate. And I've given examples of realworld ethical systems that could easily support such a battle, and a general in-game framekwork which could have caught and passed as "non-evil" such a system.

What a horror, I know.

Nemesis · Post by **Nemesis** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:10 pm

you are bending the jedi code my friend...

The jedi does not belive in killing unless its forced uppon you, and the killing of bendak is not.

there is no justice here, just lust for money consealed behind light side ideals...

IF there was to be justice, Mr Starkiller should be taken to court and prosecuted. Instead, you challenge him to a fight and kill him.
Why can't you see the ds in this?

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:34 pm

Originally posted by Nemesis
you are bending the jedi code my friend...
The jedi does not belive in killing unless its forced uppon you, and the killing of bendak is not.

Where does it say this about violence in KotoR's jedi code of ethics?

there is no justice here, just lust for money consealed behind light side ideals...

According to you. Nemesis, this is just your personal evaluation that refuses to acknowledge diverse ethical value systems that could be roleplayed in KotoR. You can't perceive any jedi having another intent than the one you've stated: fine. Please, stop trying to force it upon other jedi characters I've suggested.

IF there was to be justice, Mr Starkiller should be taken to court and prosecuted. Instead, you challenge him to a fight and kill him. Why can't you see the ds in this?

Because I can see the roleplaying of your value system, and other, contradictory value systems as well. The jedis don't agree among themselves about when to act. Until they hire somebody to make blanket rulings, perhaps it would be best to allow for disagreements to exist, and to provide a range of intent and activity that is fully commensurate with the jedi code.

Armisael · Post by **Armisael** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 7:31 pm

It's an official bounty, so obviously the Tarisian government had no problem with hiring people to take down Bendak. But the law, as Jolee puts it, has little to do with justice.

Even if fighting Bendak isn't apparantly 'good', there should at least be a way to do it neutrally. Accepting a deathmatch isn't an inherently evil act.

Big Brother · Post by **Big Brother** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:27 pm

Originally posted by Armisael
Accepting a deathmatch isn't an inherently evil act.

No, but fighting in one is.