Bedak Starkiller

[Nemesis]

Because I can see the roleplaying of your value system, and other, contradictory value systems as well.

Well, obviusly not, because my system is based on types. Bad guys are dark, good guys are light. Evil guys can't be light in the long run (and the other way around). And i belive the other ones are like that as well (dunno actually..)

If you do something that defies the code, ex. killing a man when its not nessesary, that is an evil thing to do (i have already explained why), and thus should be rewarded with a dsp.

(sorry bout typos, its night here)

nem

and please, i mean no offense with these posts, just posting my opinions... so don't flame me

According to you. Nemesis, this is just your personal evaluation that refuses to acknowledge diverse ethical value systems that could be roleplayed in KotoR

[Armisael]

Originally posted by Big Brother
No, but fighting in one is.

No, it's not. Both the PC and Bendak have consented to the duel, they're both ready for the possibility that they'll die. Killing isn't an inherently evil act where there's consent. You can make a similar comparison between murder and euthenasia.

Edit: and a short response to Nemesis - I said it earlier, the Jedi code doesn't exemplify everything good. There are plenty of good people in the Star Wars universe who don't know or care about the code.

[Aegis]

Accepting to do something illegal doesn't make it right, so whether or not both parties gave their consent to fight to death has no bearing on the DSP given.

Also, regarding the Jedi code. It is stated, numerous times, Fable, that a Jedi will do whatever they can to bring their target in alive, not kill them. It was completly possible, story wise to not kill Bendak, which would be simply to ignore him, or deny his desire to make a comeback.

[fable]

Originally posted by Aegis
Also, regarding the Jedi code. It is stated, numerous times, Fable, that a Jedi will do whatever they can to bring their target in alive, not kill them. It was completly possible, story wise to not kill Bendak, which would be simply to ignore him, or deny his desire to make a comeback.

Is your PC a jedi at the time that he encounters Starkiller, and does he know the jedi code of behavior? Apparently not. It seems odd, therefore, to have some impersonal universal force judge *his intent* by a jedi code of behavior whose tenets he hasn't heard. Then, there's the matter of having no one to bring Starkiller to, for justice. The jedi council? Your PC doen't know where they are. And he doesn't have the means of getting there.

Let me repeat this one more time. I'm not denying the view that Bioware imposed: that by killing Starkiller, your PC's intent was purely mercenary. I'm only stating that there are alternative roleplaying possibilities that could be espoused by the player--which view Starkiller as someone who must be brought to justice despite the planetary law; or as someone who can be fought in honorable battle, without rancor, with death a real possibility for either side. These and other character paths are just as realistic as Bioware's equation of (killing Starkiller=mercenary).

I am *not* espousing a single approach. I *am* suggesting that the roleplaying possibilities are broader than Bioware allowed, within the jedi framework, and without automatically labelling the specific action "evil" and receiving DSPs. But Bioware's evaluation of ethics remains as simplistic in KotoR as it was in the hell passages of BG2; and I offered some other possibilities earlier in this thread for evaluation of present intent based on past actions which I think provide a better index for roleplaying value.

[Adm. Pellaeon]

Originally posted by fable
Is your PC a jedi at the time that he encounters Starkiller, and does he know the jedi code of behavior?

PROFOUND BUT UNNAMED SPOILER:
(for those who haven't gotten this far yet)



(no text here ... just space)



Considering who your PC is, even though you don't have any Jedi levels yet, and considering that Bastila will declare you to be a "Force Sensitive," as one who has "inadvertent" control over the Force, the action taken in killing Bendak Starkiller directly contravenes the "all life is sacred" undertone of the Force (which is fully reinforced throughout all the EU sources).

Fable, you're right ... there is a depth of moral and ethical behavior that is barely scratched by the mechanics of a computer RPG ... but, on the other hand, given that by the mechanics here, the unnecessary taking of life (since Bendak is not innately hostile) is a Dark act, it must necessarily result in the "awarding" of DSPs. In coldly, premeditatively killing Bendak, you've done something that no Jedi would countenance, no matter how wicked the villain (remember, in SW4:ANH, Ben Kenobi could have struck Vader down, but instead sacrificed himself to give Luke, Leia, and Han the time to escape). After all, Bastila said that she and the other Jedi were sent to capture Revan, not to kill the Sith Master...

And, yes, this is but a simple dichotomy-based approach to good and evil. But it meshes with the mythology of the Force as propounded by GL himself and reinforced throughout the entire license.

[Armisael]

But it's all so inconsistant. If killing where death is avoidable nets a DSP, then why don't you get DSP for claiming the bounty on Sevan? If illegal acts earn DSP, then why is it perfectly okay to break into a family's home and sack all their personal possessions? The game has a really weird idea of what's okay and what's not. Personally I don't believe fighting Bendak is at all evil relative to a lot of other 'bad' actions that the game deems reasonable. Whatever the case, though, you can't just explain it away with the Jedi code.

[Darth Anubis]

Things that lead to death are Dark Side, things that lead to the prevention of death are Light Side. Bendak Starkiller is not evil, but he is a tad dark because he likes killing people. But the people he kills are not victims, they knew what they were getting into. He had "justified" killing. Killing him to collect a bounty or hunting him down is seeking to kill, which is even worse than he is. As for looting houses... that should give Dark Side points, but I guess Bioware forgot about it or decided it was not evil enough for any points.

[Armisael]

Oh ho ho, hang on a minute. If Bendak's killing was "justified" because the people he killed knew what they were getting into, then why should killing him for the sake of the duel be any different? Bendak isn't a "victim".

[fable]

Originally posted by Adm. Pellaeon
PROFOUND BUT UNNAMED SPOILER:
(for those who haven't gotten this far yet)



(no text here ... just space)



Considering who your PC is, even though you don't have any Jedi levels yet, and considering that Bastila will declare you to be a "Force Sensitive," as one who has "inadvertent" control over the Force, the action taken in killing Bendak Starkiller directly contravenes the "all life is sacred" undertone of the Force (which is fully reinforced throughout all the EU sources).

Bastila may declare you "Force sensitive," but that doesn't mean you know the tenets of the mysterious jedi and their equally mysterious Force, especially before meeting Bastila (and remember, you can battle Starkiller before meeting her). Being Force sensitive seems to me to mean that you'll make an extremely apt pupil for it. (If you had some control over the Force, you would presumably have at least a couple of Force powers at your disposal. You don't, until you're actually trained as a jedi, so IMO there is no such control at that point.) If I understand the matter correctly, it's a bit like a pair of discerning parents realizing that their four-year-old has tremendous linguistic aptitude. (And yes, modern techniques are available to assess the future linguistic capabilities of four-year-old toddlers.) That doesn't mean a four-year-old is capable of learning fifteen languages, or of speaking Russian, Urdu and Iroquois like a native speaker--only that the possibility is present, if nurtured patiently over time. And even then, the gift may not pan out, for a variety of reasons (temperament, personal preferences, other skills that cause the brain top develop differently during maturation, etc). Potential is just that: untapped talent, rather than conscious knowledge.

Fable, you're right ... there is a depth of moral and ethical behavior that is barely scratched by the mechanics of a computer RPG ... but, on the other hand, given that by the mechanics here, the unnecessary taking of life (since Bendak is not innately hostile) is a Dark act, it must necessarily result in the "awarding" of DSPs. In coldly, premeditatively killing Bendak, you've done something that no Jedi would countenance, no matter how wicked the villain (remember, in SW4:ANH, Ben Kenobi could have struck Vader down, but instead sacrificed himself to give Luke, Leia, and Han the time to escape).

I'm sure you're a lot more knowledgeable about the inner working of the Star Wars universe than I am--in fact, most people probably are. But KotoR, like all RPGs I've encountered, stands on its own in the sense that you don't need to know anything about the game world outside the product. If other knowledge is required, than the game has failed in part of its task: to create a standalone universe. I don't think KotoR has. So I think it's fair to judge the ethical awards system of KotoR without external references.

Mind, I think you raise some good points, Pellaeon. But let's briefly look at one important issue--the unnecessary taking of life. It seems to be anything but clear how KotoR's Force, that impartial administrator of LSPs and DSPs, assesses your performance, especially during the important early stages of the game, when rules are first intuited. You can threaten occupants of Taris apartments at gunpoint, and steal their belongings, yet receive no DSPs whatever. Then there's the matter of scouring the various enemy bases you enter for experience and loot after having downloaded their schematics and achieved your quest goal in each--the Vulkars on Taris and Sith base on Manaan being a pair of examples. Nobody said you had to seek out the various techs, doctors, bartenders, etc, not when they could be avoided after finding and securing whatever you needed. But you do; and not only do you kill others, but loot their corpses. While I still think it is tenable that you would fight Starkiller for reasons of dispassionate justice or honor (knowing full well that you might die, rather than he), there is no jedi-sufficient excuse for going on a murdering rampage in a base's side rooms, with the obvious intent of stealing all the occupant's belongings.

Of course, in CRPGs, gaining experience and goodies is part of the fun. I think arguably that Bioware agreed to compromise the jedi ethical code, there, by not awarding DSPs, so players could enjoy themselves. But in doing so, IMO, they also blurred the line as to what is good, evil, or otherwise, for a jedi. If no DSPs are awarded for entering medical bays and killing physicians in order to steal medpacs, when it seems obvious they should be, then I think it's highly questionable that DS intent should be automatically assumed when you face Starkiller on the field of honor.

[Adm. Pellaeon]

SPOILER INCLUDED!

DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED THE LEVIATHAN "STAGE"


I agree that the rampant butchery in which your character can engage is beyond what is necessary, but I have no qualms with going on a rampage against Sith troopers. Putting aside our Earthly experiences of WWII, those who join the Sith aren't just going along for the ride, in a country taken over by a ruthless despot; they've actively chosen to side with a force that is purely and utterly, well, evil. It doesn't bother me that the PC goes and slaughters rooms full of Sith soldiers. Maybe there should be DSPs for killing the Sand People, but, then again, if they attack you, you have the right to defend yourself, and if the statement was inadvertent (if there were any such choices...), well, that's just too darn bad...
(as for any later Sith bases, what Bioware didn't do is put in an "alarm" function, which should have been included in the Manaan base ... whereby the receptionist-Sith should have punched the "general quarters" button and put the base on alert ... logically, they'd come running if you were spotted in such an obvious fashion.)

In contrast, in Davik's base, I thought that it was smart of Bioware to attach DSPs for killing the Rodian guest ... because even though you invaded his room, you could back out without engaging in hostilities. Although you can do the same with the bounty hunter and the noble, killing them doesn't net DSPs. Personally, I think all three should have the convince-to-not-fight/kill-and-receive-DSPs duality.

By the way, I wasn't addressing the matter in light of what Bastila told the PC. Regardless of what the PC "knows" at any one time, the fact remains that |||SPOILER||| the PC was at one point Revan. The PC may have been given a blank slate to start again, but on some submerged level, the PC is still a once-and-future Jedi. Bastila telling us that we were Force sensitive is really only just an obscure clue for the PC's player. I don't mean to imply that her action would impart knowledge ... all I was trying to do between the first italic "is" and the comma after "Force" is to do a non-spoiler version of stating that the PC is really Revan. Revan, although he/she has lost his memory (and had a new one installed), should through his/her connection to the Force have a deeper feeling of good-vs.-evil and thus needs to feel the wrongness of killing Bendak in such a manner.

[Big Brother]

Killing isn't an inherently evil act where there's consent.

If someone says you can kill them and then you do you are still commiting murder.

[Armisael]

Yes, but... what does the law have to do with anything?

[fable]

Re: SPOILER INCLUDED!

Originally posted by Adm. Pellaeon
I agree that the rampant butchery in which your character can engage is beyond what is necessary, but I have no qualms with going on a rampage against Sith troopers.

Nor I. But you get DSPs after battling Starkiller--which is ethically ambiguous, since it comes down to a matter of intent and knowledge which to at least some of us, here, is never clear in the dialog. On the other hand, I think you'll agree that there can be no doubt that going out of your way to murder and loot physicians, bartenders and such in the Manaan and Taris enemy bases (for example) counts as an "evil" act, yet you get no DSPs for it.

I've mentioned robbing Taris apartment dwellers without accumulating DSPs, as well. Allow me to suggest another pair of events whose ethical evaluation by the game leads to further confusion.
SPOILERS FOR KASHYYYK and KORRIBAN FOLLOW...
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On Kashyyyk, you encounter an ancient computer hologram that guards access to a Star Map. The hologram will provide access if your answers to its questions match up with the last known person to access it successfully; and that was five years ago, about the time Revan was doing his debutante whirlwind tour of the galaxy. If you fail the parameters test, you'll be attacked by defense droids. The implication is obvious: lying to provide the answers Malak would have chosen will get you the access you need, without violence.

Yet you receive DSPs for choosing those replies.

Okay, fair enough: maybe the game assumes you're channeling your inner Raven (though again, that's a bit silly, since anybody in a similar situation might arrive at this selection of answers based on logical means). Now, let's go onto Korriban. While exploring the tombs, you're captured (along with a dark jedi disciple, Mekel) by Jorak, the former local Dark Jedi commander. Not to put too fine a point on it, he's nuts. To escape without violence, you have to answer his questions accurately *as a dark jedi would.* The five questions are the same kind, for substance and style, as you found on Kashyyyk. In fact, they're interchangeable. If you moved questions from one challenge to the other, they'd fit in seamlessly. Both sets are what-if scenarios with multiple choice answers that require an ethical decision. Again, giving light side answers provide a tough fight afterwards, while dark side answers give you an immediate reward.

Yet if you give the dark side answers on Korriban, you don't get DSPs.

What's more, if you give those dark side answers on Korriban, you also end up killing a dark side apprentice *who can be turned towards the light, later.* You do this, knowingly, because of Jorak's sadistic means of punishing you both: if you answer a question correctly (ie, with a dark side response), Mekel receives energy damage, but if you answer incorrectly (with a light side response), you take damage. The thing is, after you Mekel gets shocked once, you'll see his life level drop by a third. You know he can only survive two such hits. You, on the other hand, as an energy attack will demonstrate, can absorb everything Jorak throws at you, and survive, along with having access to your life support and advanced medpacs.

So you actually evade an attack by choosing the dark side answers on Korriban, sacrifice another person to save your life--and still receive no DSPs. Whereas, on Kashyyyk, there were no other lives involved; and in a similar situation, choosing the dark side replies netted you DSPs.

All of this can be rationalized (and I'm sure, will be) in any number of ways. Maybe you don't notice Mekel under the shock of the moment, or maybe he's dark side so it doesn't matter. (But what about the jedi code: saving life, converting dark side folk, and all that?) Or maybe your quest is more important, so any sacrifice along the way makes it worthy. (Veeery ambiguous.) But even if you still remove Mekel from the equation, the two sets of questions are virtually identical in nearly identical situations, and the Kashyyyk set results in DSPs if you choose to simply lie, providing DS answers. The Korriban set doesn't.

[Adm. Pellaeon]

HECK, THERE ARE TOO MANY SPOILERS TO KEEP MARKING. IF YOU'RE A NEWBIE, DO YOURSELF A FAVOR BY CLOSING YOUR BROWSER, BOOTING UP KOTOR, AND FINISHING THE GAME BEFORE YOU KEEP READING!


I agree to a good portion of that, Fable. I've always chosen the goody-goody responses (although personally on Kashyyyk I would have chosen to subtly reinforce, rather than to evacuate the city), so I wouldn't know about receiving the DSPs (though I know that they were there, at least on Kashyyyk). There should be DSP penalties for choosing the obscenely dark path.

The medics are problematic on the good-evil spectrum, but at least with the droids, you know where you stand. Living beings could cower and/or run away, but they don't. The 'droids, however, are programmed to attack the intruders (strange for medical machines). So I feel a little bad about whacking the mortals, but nothing for the machines. (Though if the docs didn't want to get killed, they shouldn't have charged me!)

Whacking the Vulkar bartenders is definitely a dark gray area, but for at least one, he's really in the wrong place at the wrong time, practicing the wrong trade. The enslaved girl is being held there against her will, and the bartender has to be fully aware of and complicent in her slavery. Thus he deserves his end.

The whole enter-the-apartment-and-steal-their-possessions thing bothered me. If you spoke to the renters, they'd cower but you wouldn't get the DSPs ... at the very least, you should get the choice to appologize and back out (or have no containers in occupied apartments ... the goods being available only through intimidation).

But on Kashyyyk's gatekeeper test...

If you fail the parameters test, you'll be attacked by defense droids.

The implication is obvious: lying to provide the answers Malak would have chosen will get you the access you need, without violence.

...choosing the dark path, even to avoid violence, is still the route of evil in this genre. The Korriban droid's attitude towards life notwithstanding, machines have no presence in the force (this stun droid stuff shouldn't rightfully exist, but, in parallel, droids should always fail resistance checks against Force Push and other such direct-action powers (cf. SW:TPM), and so, without a "life" to extinguish, Jedi disassembling droids Wookiee-style isn't inherently a dark act. Also, by not choosing the dark answers, you're refusing to compromise your principles just for expediency or safety (it's all the final battle stuff between Luke and the Emperor on the Death Star II in SW:ROTJ).

[Aegis]

For your Korriban example, Fable, I understand the reasoning behind it, but you do not intentionally harm Mekel. Mekel is harmed by the Mad Sith, whenever you answer something wrong (by his standards), or choose not to answer at all (which I choose, and was punished equally as Mekel). Because you, as the PC, is given little choice in the matter, I don't see that as leading to the Dark Side of the force, because it becomes a matter of survival. You, a Jedi of light (providing you choose those answers) vs. Mekel, a Jedi of the Sith. Jedi of light would still do more to remain alive, then his/her enemies, as they can potentially go on to do more good deeds. A sort of ends justify the means deal. So, I it makes sense that you don't get DSP points for that particular debacle.

[Nemesis]

You have the choice of sparing another life (no matter of the person) and ending you're own, or watch that person die..
the jedi belives that everyone can be saved.. just look at vader

a jedi would have ended his own life i belive..

personally i took the damage so that the master could kill him, then i killed the master.. double gain, twice the evil


You may call me Revan