Is it just me..............

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 12:26 pm

I just read some messages and I am wondering what "Munchkinism" and "Vanilla" are supposed to mean. This particular string seems suitably clique, so you people would propably know what they mean.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 2:22 pm

LOL! Yeah, sure!

Munchkin is another word for power gamer. Especially the type that gets off over big weapons and area damage spells (which aren't neccesarily the best, but what do they know?).

Vanilla means ordinary, without anything special. A regular Longsword +1 without special abilities is a vanilla Longsword +1.

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Sun Jul 01, 2001 2:55 pm

Ta very much. I am guessing then munchkin is a derog term? ..mmm thought so

Oneiron · Post by **Oneiron** » Sat Jul 07, 2001 11:33 am

I believe that SoA and now ToB have to have many high powered magic items for the the sole reason that the monsters have extraordinarily extended abilities. In SoA there are normally 8HD monsters that have 150+ hp. Not to mention spells like Absolute Immunity, Spell Trap, Time Stops Galore. Come on, Adamantite Golems! I think that they balanced out the powerful weapons quite nicely with the abilities of monsters and NPC's.
If you played either first or second edition AD&D, how many times did you have to kill a dragon (who is a spellcaster),much less, 3 dragons (all spellcasters), many liches, a demi-lich, high powered wizards, and a variety of Greater Demons and Devils in one campaign. Even in the Armageddon series of pre-fab campaigns for AD&D 2 they go easy on Vampires and Liches (for the most part, there is always "Return to the Tomb of Horrors"). In ToB I killed a dueregar sapper, an unnamed cannon-fodder monster that absorbed 178hp of damage before he died. He didn't even use a potion of healing.
In my opinion, SoA and ToB are the rarest of all D&D campaigns: Monty Haul campaigns that are balanced by monster and NPC enhancments.
I think Bioware did a pretty good job.
Although, there is one thing, I think Crom Faeyr (the best weapon in these games, IMO) is a bit over-powered (I'll be godlike...).
(I hope this message doesn't come across as being aggressive, I'm a little over-caffeinated)

Magus · Post by **Magus** » Sat Jul 07, 2001 2:21 pm

In general, I think Bioware did a great job balancing high level weapons with high level monsters. But ONE thing that really annoyed me was the mercenaries in Amkethran. It really pissed me off when three or four of those bastards chopped up my best fighters like they were kobolds. I'm almost I god...and yet a couple of simple sellswords hung up my ass to dry? I think the battles with the mercenaries should have involved taking down hordes of weaklings, not a couple of legendarily-powerful tanks.

volle · Post by **volle** » Sat Jul 07, 2001 3:16 pm

We tried to play PnP AD&D with lots of magical stuff. It wasn't fun to play.
Example. my 4lvl Dwarf Fighter haves girdle of stone giant str. First he makes critical hit to green dragon +3 axe and +14 or somethin to damage mm 44 damage. Then dragon tries to fly high and then use his gas cloud attack. Dwarf takes a tree and throws it and hits dragon, dragon takes 25 damage and dies.
This is Fun??? No.

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Sat Jul 07, 2001 3:17 pm

Originally posted by Oneiron:
 Come on, Adamantite Golems!

Yeah, I must admit my party was a little knackered after first bashing up the Adamantite Golem, then Firkrag's lacky wizard and then Firkraag himself.

Kyle Marksteiner · Post by **Kyle Marksteiner** » Sat Jul 07, 2001 3:37 pm

Oneiron- I totally agree with you that the high level equipment balances out high level mobs-
It's just a shame that in many fantasy games- bigger is viewed as better-

I used to build areas on some muds- and it always cracked me up how every person who made a new area had to introduce a new weapon that was better than any weapon in the game and a new monster that was tougher than any monster in the game.

I enjoyed SOA a lot and am enjoying TOB, but I can't help get the feeling that the developers backed themselves into a corner. They introduced basically the best DnD equipment in existance in SOA (holy avenger, hammer of thunderbolts, staff of magi), so for TOB they had to introduce even bigger and creatures and items. Bigger does not always make the game more fun, IMO.

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Sat Jul 07, 2001 3:53 pm

What about the weapon upgrades? That is pretty clever idea. Ages +5, Carsomyr +6.

Oneiron · Post by **Oneiron** » Sat Jul 07, 2001 4:29 pm

In response to Lauf, I agree that PnP Monty Haul campaigns are not the greatest thing in the world. If there isn't a challenge to the game why play it? I've found both SoA and ToB to be plenty of challenge to keep me amused. Well, the first time around wasn't much challenge because I edited my characters for stats, experience, inventory. Consequently, it took me about four months (IRT) to finish that campaign. This time around, I didn't cheat or take advantage of bugs in the game scripting and I had a great time. Now I'm in ToB and I'm having enough fun that my wife has to pull me off the computer sometimes.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Sat Jul 07, 2001 4:39 pm

Something to think about....

The game makers tried to make the game where it would draw not only from the PnP group/crowd, but from all groups.

Oneiron · Post by **Oneiron** » Sat Jul 07, 2001 8:33 pm

Originally posted by Weasel:
Something to think about....

The game makers tried to make the game where it would draw not only from the PnP group/crowd, but from all groups.

I totally agree. Not only are they trying to appeal to the above groups but, to people who have no experience with roleplaying games at all.

I just can't wait for Neverwinter Nights. I am anxious to see the products of so many different peoples' imaginations coming to life! The alchemy between PnP gaming and Computer RPGing cannot come too soon!

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Sat Jul 07, 2001 10:22 pm

i'm wondering what it would take to make some of you happy w/ the items in this game.

remeber a few key points:
1) this is not pnp, the dm is a collection of scripts and cannot provide any guidance, clues, or help to the player you are on your own. encounters cannot be scripted to take into account all the factors a human dm could.

2) what makes a game really great in my book is that once you finish it, you want to start over and try a new path. think of a game like sid meyer's civ. so many factors so little time. i still play civ2, and each game has the potential to be something brand new.

i'm thankful for all the options that are there, i think the game would be very frustrating if you battled all the way through a dungeon for a magic item that you can't use, and then "can't" sell it b/c there is nothing of similar value to replace it.

for example:

my first attempt at soa was an undead hunter w/ a drizzt fetish, dual wield scimitars. after finishing trademeet i had belm & talon both +2 scimitars, decent weapons but incapable of damaging several monsters. what was i to do? i had great weapons flail of ages and later carsomyr & celestial fury & a whole bunch of longswords, none of which i had proff in. nor did i want to use them since they did not match my preconcieved notions of what i wanted my char to look like & use. i do think it's interesting to find a weapon that i don't have skill in and try to "grow" into it and eagerly await each new prof point but it does get tedoius.

i tried to reorg the party, keldorn for the ha, valygar for cf, ect. finally i just said screw this char & started over w/ katanas & longswords 'cause by then i knew what weapons to expect.

one of the things i really like about tob is the variety of weapons, some weapon classes were all but ignored in soa, (bastard swords for example, iirc there are only two +2 or better, both very late in the game.)

the varietes of armours are also pretty neat, i like the fact that there are armours in every style and colour that are fairly balanced. your ftr can wear leather or chain for roleplay reasons and still be well proteced enough so that you don't die every time you meet something tougher than a kobold.

i think the game would be very boring if there was only one "very good" weapon and a bunch of "decent" weapons. same for armour, it provides a reason to replay the game.

alringt it's late i'm getting crazy, thanks to anyone who bothers to read the whole manifesto. cheer up it's not that bad.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sun Jul 08, 2001 2:20 am

Originally posted by Sloanzilla:
It's just a shame that in many fantasy games- bigger is viewed as better

Indeed. Especially because it is all relative to what you encounter anyway. In BG1 I'd drool over the Dagger of Venom. In SoA I wouldn't even go near it. Killing Ogres with Shortswords +1 is apparently viewed as uncool. Killing big bad uber Demon Princes with +6(!) weapons supposedly is a much better gaming experience... +6 weapons! Come on, that stuff doesn't even exist in PnP! It's only there because it's bigger than the biggest weapon in SoA.

ToB gives me the impression that Black Isle wanted to draw from the Diablo fan pool. Diablo is all about killing big monsters with even bigger weapons, and nothing else. I view this attempt at imitation as a loss. If I want monty haul, I'll damn well play Diablo.

Most fun I ever had in both PnP and computer RPGs was with low level characters. Scrounging together enough gold to buy a Splint Mail(!) had so much more to it than "Say, shall I keep the Orcslicer +13 that stuns with no save and does +20 acid, fire and cold damage or the Ultra-Razor +14 that casts Time Stop every time I hit someone with it."

KensaiRyu · Post by **KensaiRyu** » Sun Jul 08, 2001 6:11 am

or the Ultra-Razor +14 that casts Time Stop every time I hit someone with it."

Somebody (BNX?) has a sword at Arundors Abode (http://go.to/arundor) that has a small percent chance to stop time and haste the wielder, and u know what? I love that sword...

When I was first playing bg2 I got killed alot trying to solo the twisted rune with a Fighter/Thief that specilized in Katana.

Finally after 10 or so reloads I went to his 'house' in Waukeens Promenade and brought out the ancient sword. I then went to the twisted rune and proceeded to chop everything up. It was very satisfying. Then I retired the sword back at his house and never brought it out again. It was my solution for a frustrating situation. So I think even uber weapons can be fun, and useful, depending on the situation.

Just my .02 cents...