a pure Barbarian 10 is worth it

anofalye · Post by **anofalye** » Thu Jan 01, 2004 11:20 pm

Hiya all. (power player concern, not Roleplaying)

I know, most of you dual the barbarian to a warrior or some such stuff...yet...consider this.

My dwarven barbarian will have 210 HPS and a damage reduction of 2. (I never accept less then the maximum, kinda boring to level up, they should put a static number if they dont want me to get the max, if a roll, I will do it hehe, well, for the clerics/casters behind, I accept less then maximum sometimes...hehe, but not for those in melee) (144 HPS at level 8, but will have the +6 stamina and 2 more levels so...)

My Half orc warrior(damage oriented) will have only 170 HPS, no damage reduction and since his role is do to damage, not wearing a shield. And we are assuming the stamina item will be made for him as well, which is not a priority(his glaive and the STR gauntlets are a priority, his stamina, well, it can wait)

Of course, you dont need to be that strong.

Yet, I never see my barbarian been low HPS, never, and every other member of my group have been downed at least twice(not killed). The AC, the HPS, it is a very strong position, you sacrifice some damage output, yet, someone will have to tank. I see 2 giants and go in the middle of them at level 8 and hardly feel it painfull(so what, they do 50 damage while the group kill them, that is a joke, crit a lot and do twice and the barb would still not flinch)!

Basically, 2 warriors damage tuned would be downed and the barbarian would still be standing. (the barbarian dont have twice the HPS, yet with a shield and the AC the damage dealer have(and if they switch to shields they lose all their edge of damage dealer and are ghetto compare to a barbarian).

Do not under estimate the strong edge a barbarian have...the warrior is closer to a cleric then to a barbarian for standing damage...it can be done...a cleric can also stand it...but a barbarian is 1 HUGE step ahead.

The barbarian is not the character that will deal a lot of damage and kill the monsters(deal decent damage, but nothing that compare to the warrior), it is the toon that will stop the monster and make it eat the group damage those extra rounds. And never forget...if the barbarian go low on HPS(never happen for me), he can always Rage(HPS boost as well as some str)...

Putting a warrior or a paladin as the main front liner is a little like putting a cleric, it can be done, but...it is not maximized. And dual classing the barbarian is bad...losing HPS and the damage reduction is very bad.

Keill Randor · Post by **Keill Randor** » Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:50 pm

I'm not opposed to Barbarians, but I think there are a couple of things missing from your comparison. All of this takes it as a given that you are power gaming.

First, there is a 10 hit point swing just because of the different races you chose. Dwarves get a +2 to Constitution which gives them an extra hit point every level over a Half-Orc with the same starting stats.

Second, fighters are designed to be wearing heavier armor (and quite often a shield as well), while Barbarians are designed to wear lighter armor. Consequently, the fighter should get hit less often and shouldn't need as many hit points. That is why they get a D10 for hit points and a Barbarian gets a D12.

I personally prefer a Fighter over a Barbarian because I think the hit point vs. Armor Class comparison balances itself out. That leaves the difference of the Barbarian rage and damage reduction vs. the fighter's 6 bonus feats. I've never been a big fan of Raging, and by the time you get damage reduction, the 1 or 2 points is pretty much negligible. On the other hand, I really like the flexibility offered by six extra feats. And if HP are the only concern, you could take the feat "Toughness" as many times as you like for an extra 3 HP each time. If you took toughness for all six bonus feats (it hurts me to even type that) that would be an extra 18 HP. Then you are left with only a 2 HP difference between the fighter and barbarian (of equal races and Constitutions) at level 10, and the fighter should have a higher AC.

After saying all of that, I'm glad you enjoy the Barbarian. All in all, I think the two classes are supposed to balance out, I just like the fighter options better.

anofalye · Post by **anofalye** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:39 pm

2 HP per level, the damage reduction and the rage.

For the AC, a barbarian can wear heavy plate at level 1 with his starting feat...

The cleric and the warrior only have a 2 HP difference, and nobody claim a cleric can be as good a front liner as a warrior...it can be done, it is not optimized.

And the damage reduction is arguebably better then the 2 hp per level, some will not agree, but 2 on every hit...it will most likely take more then 10 hits to down a barbarian with 210 HPS

A warrior damage is great, very very great. I rather have an extra warrior then an extra wizard personally, but here, I know a wizard can outdamge a warrior, it is a question of style of how you play and all.

Raumoheru · Post by **Raumoheru** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:47 pm

the damage reduction is only 3 and sorry but saving 3 hit points isnt worth wasting more levels. a lvl 6 fighter and level 4 barb makes a better use of that class, u get the good all the good stuff u really need plus more feats which i think is more important.

as for the AC, just go to the Emredy meadows, go to the bottom of the map and u will se a hill giant and a brown bear and next to them on the ground is the Green Elven Chainmail. if u cant fight him...hes pretty tuff..... just use a person to sneak and get it. the green elven chain mail has a +6 AC and +4 max dex modifier. then u can enchant it to be +8 and boom u got the equal of a +3 full plate armor!

anofalye · Post by **anofalye** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:18 pm

Well...

Maybe I was lucky, but I never find my barbarian in danger, ever.

Just kill the Balor and it didnt even bring me to half my HPS(was 132/205(for some reason the shield of Hedrak remove 5 hp), and in the walkthrought, it is suppose to be the hardest fight in the game, hardly make my barb flinch. (the warrior is the toon that kill the Balor, after making sure the barbarian was on it(for some reason, the mobs kill those wielding Fragarach(barb) first, so the glaive wielder got a cakewalk))

kellinjar · Post by **kellinjar** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 3:43 pm

Dwarf Fighter level 10, max con and +6 con item, and both bonus points put into con = 190
Barbarian(Same deal) = 210
Winner Barbarian

Skills:
Barbarian: 4+int modifier/level (9 different class skills total)
Fighter: 2+int modifier/level (7 class skills
Winner Barbarian

Proficiencies:
Barbarian: Simple, Martial, Light/Meidum Armor, and shields (no tower)
Fighter: Simple Martial, All armor and shields
Winner Fighter

Special Abilities: (by level 10)
Barbarian: Fast Movement, Illiterate, Rage(3x day), Trap Sense +3, Improved uncanny dodge, Damage Reduction -2
Fighter: 6 bonus feats

Winner IMHO Fighter. 6 combat feats outweigh a +3 save (specifica gainst traps), -2 damage (which doesn't mean a WHOLE lot when opponents deal 15-25 damage) The only standout ability is the rage, but its only good 3 times a day at level 10 and you are fatigued afterwards (you also suffer an AC penalty while using it making you more susceptible to attack)

Restrictions:
Barbarian: Cannot become lawful or can gain no more levels and cannot rage.
Fighter: None
Winner Fighter

Max AC: (Melee)
Barbarian: Chainshirt +4, dex bonus +4 (18), Large shield +2 = 20
Fighter: Full plate +8, +1 dex bonus (12)
Large shield (+2) = 21

Winner: Fighter clearly, higher AC AND he can keep his dex 4 points lower (which amounts to other stats being higher) Also shines in situations where you lose your dex bonus. (Barbarian can change the armor up for a breastplate which changes bonuses to +5, +3 and requires only a 16 dex, but this reduces his effectiveness against touch spells)

Max AC: (Touch)
Barbarian +4 Dex bonus due to chain shirt
Fighter: +1 due to full plate

Winner Barbarian (But take into consideration how often you actually face touch spells)

Saving throws:
Identical so its a tie

AR:
Identical so its a tie.

So basically it breaks down to this.
Barbarian shines in a couple areas (about 10% more HP) and twice as many skill points. However if they both have 3 intelligence 1 is the minimum skill point and its the same.

On average the fighter would get hit slightly less then the barbarian.
Damage output would be higher for the fighter (taking greater weapon specialization) Yes the barb can rage for +2 damage but its only good 3 combats a day.
and he will get 20 more HP during his rage but it doesn't last that long... (and he's easier to hit during the rage so it would probably end up balancing out if some stat boy wants to run the numbers)
I think the fighter should, if properly used, outshine the barbarian slightly in the statistics...

Raumoheru · Post by **Raumoheru** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 5:27 pm

with the AC thing again....give your barb elven chainmail and enchant it to +3 then its got the same AC as full plate +3

Keill Randor · Post by **Keill Randor** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 7:20 pm

The standard AC on full plate is 8. If you give it +3, the Armor bonus goes up to 11. The green elven chain starts at 6. Even if you were able to enchant it (it won't let me) up to a +3, that is only an AC of 9. Are you including the maximum Dex bonus towards the two armors being equal?

kellinjar · Post by **kellinjar** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 8:08 pm

Just for some clarification because elven chainmail is bugged in the game.
Regular elven chainmail has a base AC of +5 with a max dex bonus of +4
Any elven chainmail you find in the game with an AC above 5 is actually already partially enchanted. Since you can only enchant it to +3 you get:
Elven Chain +8 AC +4 dex = 12 AC
Full plate +11 AC, +1 = 12 AC
The same in theory, much different in practice. For a front line fighter dex is much less important and wasting 18 dex to get 12 as opposed to a 12 dex (thats alotta points if you're doing point buy and not rolling) is a huge waste. They most likely won't be doing alot of range attacks, and yes its good against touch, but once again.. are you going to face more swords or touch attacks?

Raumoheru · Post by **Raumoheru** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:07 pm

umm it doesnt matter how you get the AC its still the same between 11 and 1 or 8 and 4. AC is AC it does matter how you get it as long as u get it u have it. most barbs get great ac and if you dont you know what you do?
hit the reroll button.....

kellinjar · Post by **kellinjar** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:40 pm

it doesn't matter how you get the AC? There is a reason there are two different ways to get the AC..they perform differently.
Whenever you are flatfooted (or any other of the situations that qualify to make you lose your dex bonus to AC), you lose your dex bonus to AC... which means in a situation where:
Barb: 10+8+4 = 22 AC is actually 18 AC
Fighter: 10+11+1=22 AC is actually 21 AC

Not so equal are they?

And since you are already talking aobut putting an 18 in Con to max their HP.. rolling another 18 on the same set is a very unlikely happening.
Its much easier to come up with a spare 12 then it is an 18. if you want to sit there and roll the bazillion times you'll need to roll to actually come up with all 18's across the board go ahead.
But unless you get to pick the stats, its HIGHLY unlikely you're going to pull an 18 for dex and con.
If you do, all the power to you. But you're still going to find yourself in situations where you lose your dex bonus to AC.
and actually rolling two 18's for a front line fighter the other 18 would be better spent in strength maybe???? then it would in dex
Why blow a killer stat on something like dex.

There are anumber of other reasons the fighter can outshine the barbarian as well.
When the barb rages he gets +2 damage..big deal the fighter spends a feat on weapon specialization he gets +2 as well...
he gets a few more hit points..but guess what.. he also gets a -2 ac..so it makes him easier to hit..like I stated earlier if someone who knows how to run stats wants to run it.. I bet it it doesn't really help that much against the majority of opponents...
oh and when the barb is done raging.. he gets tired..and loses stats.. then you gotta have someone protect the barb..

I think in the end its a very close race, but you would find the fighter with the proper combat feats and used properly outshining the barbarian ever so slightly...why? Weapon specilization is all the time.. not max 3 times a day for a few rounds..
plus add in the other wll rounded combat feats..and you will out fight a barbarian..sure in the right circumstance the barbarian will stay on his feat ever so slightly longer (10% more HP) but if a fight is so drawn out that you got both a 190 hp fighter and a 210 hp barb right down to the knuckles.. you may want to give it another go..

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:44 pm

An interesting insight into this...

Me, I currently have a Lvl 10 Half-Orc Barbarian, which I named Burgthar Bonebreaker. His stats are as follows:

20 Str
18 Dex (17 at creation)
18 Con (17 at creation)
10 Int
13 Wis
5 Cha

I actually gave him some points in Tumble (about 4, IIRC), and with his adjustment due to his Dexterity modifier, he is actually getting some really good tumble checks in close-quarters combat. He wears a suit of Blue Elven Chainmail, and sometimes a buckler, and yet he's missing quite a lot of Attacks of Opportunity. This has allowed me to use gain the Power Attack and Cleave feats without worrying about having to take a feat such as Mobility to avoid AoOs.

With his weapon, Foecleaver (a +3 Holy, Mighty Cleaving greataxe I made myself with my Cleric), Burgthar is truly a menace to those who oppose him and my party. With the Weapon Focus (Greataxe) feat, he gets anywhere from 11 to 26 damage on any normal strike, and I have trouble remembering what the heck he gets for damage on a critical hit!

Pretty cool, eh?

kellinjar · Post by **kellinjar** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:51 pm

Don't forget that a fighter with the same stats would perform more or less the same except:
you'd have more feats to throw around like: improved critical
doubling your critical chances..thats not a bad thing..
if you CHOSE to take those stats for a fighter as well (instead of say putting the 18 on wisdom for a better will save, or int for more skill points) and used a +3 chain shirt, the fighter would have spare feats to take on something like combat reflexes (giving him alot of AoOs)
(Yes the barb could take these, but remember he only gets 3 feats where as a fighter gets 9 total, making him much more well rounded)
and weapon specilization every attack will on average do +2 damage...

Raumoheru · Post by **Raumoheru** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:26 pm

the barb at 2nd level is immune to being flatfooted

kellinjar · Post by **kellinjar** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:43 pm

Originally posted by Raumoheru
not likely to get a good role huh?
btw the barb at higher level is immune to being flatfooted (or is acording to the players handbook for D&D)

should I be impressed?
And thank you for hosing the thread with a huge image like that, the proper way to post it would have been to post a clickable link to the site it was on.
Even if you get a good roll, the fighter is still going to perform better as a combatant then a barbarian. All the rolls in the world won't replace 6 bonus combat feats. So at higher levels you can worry about not being flatfooted..great..what about on the way there?
Also according to the PHB the barbarian will still lose their dex bonus if immoblized.

Raumoheru · Post by **Raumoheru** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 9:02 pm

no i am just pointing out how much of a dumb @$$ you are
u just dont get it
they are just as good as one another it is just personal preference so dont waste your time with all that statistic BS

kellinjar · Post by **kellinjar** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 9:09 pm

Refer to the first post of the thread.. this thread was for the discussion of powergaming with a barbarian..
that means its about the discussion of Statistics.

Raumoheru · Post by **Raumoheru** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 9:12 pm

that person was merely expressing his beleifs but u come in write all this bs and say everyone else is wrong and you are right

kellinjar · Post by **kellinjar** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 9:14 pm

Actually no..all I did was quote the rules and write the statistics.. you can come up with the same numbers if you like they don't lie. If you notice when I quoted the statistics, I said it was up to the person whether they wanted to trade rage and a couple of small abilities for 6 bonus feats, I said in MY OPINION its better to have the 6 bonus feats, peoplea are free to choose what they like.

Raumoheru · Post by **Raumoheru** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 9:19 pm

ok how bout the AC? ur statistics are wrong a barb and a fighter can have equal AC fighter is not "clearly" the winner.
if u want the best melee multi class the barb and fighter u get the uncanny dodge and 2 rages per day and u get 4 bonus feats.