Inconsistent results in spell combat

Boris · Post by **Boris** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:14 pm

I was just trying to clarify a minor point or two by having Imoen cast defensive spells (Spell Trap with Spell Shield and/or Pro. vs. Abjuration), then have Nalia try various defence-dispellers (Ruby Ray, etc.) But the results have dumbfounded me, because they have been completely variable!

Even when casting exactly the same spells against exactly the same defence, the outcome is seemingly entirely random. Sometimes a couple of spells foils the defence rightaway; sometimes the same defence resists the same attack plus a whole barrage of other spells. Sometimes there is a long time delay (maybe as long as a minute, but again very variable) before the effect occurs.

Now I'm so confused I don't even know what to ask! The results are so apparently inconsistent I don't even know what the variables are - might the time-delay between castings matter, for example? Is there actually a % chance of success/failure (as with Dispel Magic, for eg.) which it doesn't mention in the spell descs? Perhaps there's some weirdness because they're both Party members???

Can any wise one shed some light on this subject?

Yours,

Boris the Baffled

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:22 pm

I did a lot of testing myself, the results of which can be found here. I couldn't discover any irregularities myself. If you're absolutely sure that one or more of these listings is incorrect, I'll happily give it another try.

Are you sure you didn't have a Spell Shield up now and then? That stops the first removal spell.

Boris · Post by **Boris** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:35 pm

I'm as sure as can be that I was getting different results against the same defence - I've tried dozens of times, often using a save of after the dence has been cast. That's why I'm so surprised & confused - initially, I thought it must just be me being stupid!

BTW, ta for the link - that's pretty-much what I was looking to investigate, with a particular interest in SI-A. Am surprised to see it's so easily dispelled - the attacks are mostly Abjuration spells, after all! I suppose it just defends against Imprisonment and the like, but not spells desiged to dispell the SI itself...?

B.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:00 pm

It protects the caster from abjurations, but apparently most defences are not considered "the caster". It protects against dispels, though. That's very useful.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 3:34 am

The game is buggy but not so buggy..
In my experience, all the spells of that category work fine, with the exception of Spell Shield, but there are many sources of possible confusion.

For example, Spell Trap can be removed only by a few spells (Ruby, Pierce Shield and Spellstrike IIRC).

Spell Immunity: Abjuration is taken down by spell removals like Pierce Magic even though they're abjuration spells, as you've noticed. This is intentional I believe, everything must have a weak point... it does protect you from the annoying dispel magic though, imprisonment, and something else, it remains a VERY powerful tool, imho.

Spell Shield is a source of confusion by itself, since it absorbs the first spell removal, but it's also buggy.
For instance, if you use it in combo with Spell Immunity in a certain order (first, or second, don't remember), then Spell Immunity becomes undispellable, even when Spell Shield has already fallen.

Other than that I don't know, maybe if you can give more details...

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:46 am

Originally posted by Xyx
It protects the caster from abjurations, but apparently most defences are not considered "the caster". It protects against dispels, though. That's very useful.

highly so!!!

for a long time i've stated that remove magic is superior to dispell magic since you only get rid of enemy defences, but not yours...but if you are protected by spell immunity abby, cast dispell magic as much as you want...and it does do double duty, in removing chaos and domination effects from your own party...

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:51 am

Originally posted by Littiz
The game is buggy but not so buggy..
In my experience, all the spells of that category work fine, with the exception of Spell Shield, but there are many sources of possible confusion.

For example, Spell Trap can be removed only by a few spells (Ruby, Pierce Shield and Spellstrike IIRC).

Spell Immunity: Abjuration is taken down by spell removals like Pierce Magic even though they're abjuration spells, as you've noticed. This is intentional I believe, everything must have a weak point... it does protect you from the annoying dispel magic though, imprisonment, and something else, it remains a VERY powerful tool, imho.

Spell Shield is a source of confusion by itself, since it absorbs the first spell removal, but it's also buggy.
For instance, if you use it in combo with Spell Immunity in a certain order (first, or second, don't remember), then Spell Immunity becomes undispellable, even when Spell Shield has already fallen.

Other than that I don't know, maybe if you can give more details...

urm...that sounds like fun...

so its just spell immunity, and spell shield, right???

cool, time to experiment!!!

may i put it into the cheese guide??

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:38 am

Hey, no need to ask

Just ensure it really happens

Boris · Post by **Boris** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:01 pm

Some really precise data

The variable nature of my results (& also of the tests, as will be explained) forbids a comprehensive presentation.
But I suspect that my problem is *mostly* time-related.

Using the same defensive set-up (Spell Trap, Spell Turning, Spell Shield & SI - Abjuration) a single Ruby Ray will *usually* take down the SS, as expected. However, it takes roughly 36 "elephants" (i.e. seconds counted aloud, coz I don't have a stop-watch), for the effect to take place.

Repeated tests with a similar defence (as above, but without the gratuitous Spell Turning"), produce more random results - the effect may occur any time *after* 36 elephants (!?), and in at least one instance hadn't kicked in by the time I got bored (c. 90 els.).

The only Input variables in these cases were the times between -
a) reloading the saved defence & casting the RR
b) the RR being cast (auto-pause) & unpausing the game.
If anything, a delay in b) *seemed* to increase the delay in the effect, though I wouldn't testify to that in a court of law.

Now, I have a perfectly good processor (Athlon 1800), a decent amount of memory (512 MB) and rarely have "staggering", etc. in BGII, except the very odd time in *very* busy battles. So why does the effect take so long , esp. in the peace & quiet of the Pocket Plane? Is this a "feature"? Does anybody else suffer similar delays?

I suspect the "completely random" results I've been getting are largely due to the time delay (one could cast several spells in 36 elephants/6 rounds, all *apparently* without effect), but also because of general bugginess, esp with the SI-A & SS in combo.

I'm running Win XP, so it's probably Bill Gates' fault, of course...

Boris the Slightly-less-(but-still-quite-a-lot)-Baffled

P.S. Thanks again for the useful insights above. Interesting, indeed critical, subject, IMO. B.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:43 am

Very interesting... I suspect Spell Shield to be the cause of the glitches. A very glitchy spell to begin with, but some mods seem to make it worse. Did you have any mods installed?

Boris · Post by **Boris** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:23 pm

Yeah - several mods installed.

Item, Ease, Tactics, alist, Ascension & Redemption (though haven't got past Asc. yet - the 5 are a bit nasty!) Also did have Flirtpack, but uninstalled coz it was totally messing with J's brain (she couldn't remember what she was supposed to be doing from one round to the next - seriously (had loads of battles where J. started casting, thumping, etc., only to realise a while later she'd been standing doing nowt since the first flurry))!

But I can't imagine why storyline, procedural or equipment mods might effect basic spellcasting...

B.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:03 am

Littiz would know better than me, but I understand at least one mod replaces Spell Shield with a (buggier) version of its own.

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 4:33 pm

Undispellable how? As in immune to abjuration spells? Interesting... I did not know this, must try!!

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:55 am

Littiz would know better than me, but I understand at least one mod replaces Spell Shield with a (buggier) version of its own.

I was wrong, it's just that a few mods use Detectable Spells, and Detectable Spells modifies as necessary even that one, which was already buggy on its own.
It usually works (but the icon disappears with a delay that makes it seem even more buggy).
It glitches if used together with SI (only if they're cast in a certain order, to my knowledge), it protects against beholder's anti-magic rays, it displays a wrong portrait icon and the timings are totally wrong (this last problem is solvable).
Anyway it's a nice spell, since enemies with Improved AI do try to take down your protections (e.g. in Ascension)

@Bruce:
Another old veteran lost to cheese!!!

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:13 am

Well what can I say hehe. Bad influence on this board hehe.
Seriously, this game has me back playing again. Can you believe it?

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 7:19 am

Originally posted by Bruce Lee
Seriously, this game has me back playing again. Can you believe it?

hmmm... no. It's beyond me.

*goes back to modding *