Grand Mastery?

[Bruce Lee]

There seems to be alot of confusion as to what should happen at different levels between proficiency and grand mastery.
When selecting skills the game tells med this:
Proficiency: no penalties with the selected weapon
Specialised: +1 to hit and +2 to damage and an extra ½ attack with the selected weapon
Mastery: +2 to hit and +2 damage and an extra ½ attack...
High mastery: +2 to hit and +2 to damage and an extra ½ attack... -1 to speed
Grand mastery: +2 to hit and +3 to damage and an extra ½ attack... -1 to speed

Now I am unsure if this means you are supposed to get those bonuses added on to the ones you have, i.e. mastery should then give you +3 to hit and +4 to damage and 2 attacks. This may be a bit too much since that would mean grand mastery gives: +7 to hit and +9 to damage and 3 attacks and -2 to speed.

I am thinking this is what it was meant to be:
to hit damage attacks speed
prof 0 0 1
spec 1 2 1½
mast 2 2 2
h ms 2 2 2½ -1
g ms 2 3 3 -2

I am not sure what he original game actually gave me but it sure wasn't right as far as the attacks went. You got one extra attack at specialised and thats it. Since you start of with ½ attack at level 1 and recieve another ½ at levels 7 and 13 you could get up to 3½ attacks when dual wielding in the original game.
I installed the GM fix and this gives me the following table.

to hit damage attacks speed
prof 0 0 1
spec 1 2 2
mast 3 3 2
h ms 3 4 2 -1
g ms 3 5 3 -3

I am not sure what it really was back in the days as I don't have the second edition books at home but I think it was soemthing like this:

to hit damage attacks speed
prof +0 +0 by weapon by weapon
spec +1 +0 by weapon -1
mast +1 +2 add 1/2 -2
h ms +2 +3 add 1/1 -2
G Ms +3 +4 add 3/2 -3

I seem to recall a bonus to AC aswell.

What do you make of all this?
I just think the way the original game is fighters miss out too much and with the GM fix rangers, paladins, barbarians and multiclasses miss out too much.

Maybe something like this would be balanced:

to hit damage attacks speed
prof 0 0 1
spec 1 2 2
mast 2 3 2
h ms 3 4 2 -1
g ms 3 5 2½ -3

A minor change to the gm fix table.
opinions please



The tables don't look like I meant them to but read the colums and it should make sense...

[Galmar]

Uh, i have to admit i got pretty confused after reading that 3 times, so i may make myself look like an idiot here by stating what i feel is obvious.

Are you under the impression that each level of proficiency is cumulative with the last?

Each level of proficiency overwrites the last, making the current level of specialisation you have the ONLY one that is counted, Ie you dont get the bonuses from specialisation PLUS the bonus's from mastery if you achieve mastery. The problem with grand mastery is it was supposed to add another ½ an attack extra to what it is now, and it fails to do that.

As you can see the only benefit from going from high mastery - grand mastery is +1 damage, which quite frankly dosnt seem worth the proficency slot, the patch from baldurdash fixes that back to how it was in bg1 / iwd / iwd2 ect..

Like i said i got really confused with what you were getting at, but i felt the need to pretend that i have a clue what im talking about.

I think the tables should be ...

Proficiency: no penalties with the selected weapon
Specialised: +1 to hit and +2 to damage and an extra ½ attack with the selected weapon
Mastery: +2 to hit and +2 damage and an extra ½ attack
High mastery: +2 to hit and +2 to damage and an extra ½ attack -1 to speed
Grand mastery: +2 to hit and +3 to damage and an extra 1 attack -1 to speed

Those being the only bonuses you get added to your roll, once more you only get the benefits from your CURRENT level, they arent cumulative.

[Bruce Lee]

The table you suggest would take away half an attack from barbarians and rangers and paladins. And would give fighters two more attacks than the above mentioned classes.
I am just saying there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding this subject and I was wondering why that is and why the game doesn't follow the info you get on character creation. I mean it isn't even close.
Swashbucklers don't get the extra attack from specialisationn either which is unfair.

[Numinor]

No, the tables Galmar has there are the ones used in BG1/IWD and BG2 (with Baldurdash Grandmastery-Patch installed)
For clarificatiuon: The bonuses are not cumulative, you only get 1/2 more attacks if you achieve Grand Mastery than with Specialization.

[Bruce Lee]

But you get one more attack with GM than with spec. Not ½ an attack. And you get it when going from high mastery to grand mastery which is strange, you could instead get it in two steps.

[Galmar]

im still confused here, lemme try to explain it in a step by step way where these bonus's are cumulative.

Lets say you use a mace, you are proficient in it so you get no penalties (cant remember the non profiecient penalties).

You then put a point to specialise in maces, you will now get +1 to hit and +2 damage and an extra half attack.

Now you place one more point in maces and achieve mastery, with this you gain another +1 to hit.

Next you place another point in maces and gain high mastery, with this any mace you wield gets -1 to its speed factor.

Now heres the tricky part. (go to A if you do not use the GM fix patch, and B if you do)

A. if you place another point in maces and achieve grand mastery you will gain another +1 damage.

B. if you place another point in maces and achieve grand mastery you will gain another +1 damage as well as an extra half attack.

Whilst +1 damage at grandmastery level is ok, infact it isnt what it should be, in BG1 and the icewind dale series, as well as pen and paper (whatever ruleset these games used) grand mastery also adds an EXTRA half attack. I hope ive got the right end of the stick here.

For "balancing" reasons grand mastery was nerfed from B to A, thus depriving you of half an attack per round.

[Bruce Lee]

I understand what you are saying but what you are saying is wrong. Atleast in my game. In my game you get 1 extra attack between high mastery and grand mastery. That is with the grandmastery fix installed. Not ½ extra attack. Also it gives slightly bigger bonuses to to hit and damage. See the table in my first post.
But you are right about the original game. Now I understand what they mean. I havent played icewind dale. Do you get ½ extra attack between specialised and Grand mastery there? And do you get it when you go from high mastery to grand mastery?
And yes I was confused whether or not they meant it to be cumulative or not. I understand now that you are right saying it overwrites the previous level.

[Galmar]

The only time you get extra attacks is at specialisation (+ 1/2 an attack) and at grand mastery (another + 1/2 attack).

Dont forget that there are items that modify this, such as items that modify STR and such. if you have a high STR score or are using things such as the scimitar belm this will modify this. As well as your class (ie monks and kensai's).

[Bruce Lee]

Okay so maybe the GM fix I downloaded is the wrong one. I am reading the 2DA file and there is 1 extra attack between high mastery and grand mastery.
When dual wielding before with normal weapons I had 7/2 attacks per round, now I have 9/2.
I think I'll change it to ½ extra then, it seems more balanced but still an incentive to go for grand mastery.
Thanks

[UncleScratchy]

How do I access the table

Great thread guys. I can't remember if I have the GM fix installed or not. Since I'm currently playing a two member party with Anomen and a female F/M/T half-elf I was intending to eventually get Anomen up to GM in hammers. How can I access the proficiency table so I can tell whether I have the "fixed" table vs the original table? I have ToB installed as well. Thanks.

[Bruce Lee]

Do you have infinity explorer? If you do you can browse through the 2DA files and look for WSPECIAL and WSPATCK. The first one is the one that controls the to hit, damage and speed bonuses.
In the original game it looks like this:

2DA V1.0
0
HIT DAMAGE SPEED
0 0 0 0
1 0 0 0
2 1 2 0
3 2 2 0
4 2 3 -1
5 2 4 -3

The other one controls the number of attacks. I wont try and post it because it wont be readable. But basically it is a matrix that tells you how many attacks you get at a certain level combined with a certain number of proficiency points.
With the GM fix you get one extra attack att GM compared to the original game. I believe I might know the reason for it being 1 and not ½. Maybe it is because of the boots of speed. The boots of speed makes a character with 7/2 attacks have 4 attacks. So a GM fix that adds ½ attack wont do anything for a character wearing the boots of speed.

The WSPECIAL file for the GM fix looks like this:

2DA V1.0
0
HIT DAMAGE SPEED
0 0 0 0
1 0 0 0
2 1 2 0
3 3 3 0
4 3 4 -1
5 3 5 -3

Installing the GM fix makes your fighters stronger but remember that it also makes enemy fighters stronger. If the are grand masters ofcourse.
if you install the GM fix the files mentioned here will be in your override folder.

[UncleScratchy]

Originally posted by Bruce Lee
Do you have infinity explorer? If you do you can browse through the 2DA files and look for WSPECIAL and WSPATCK. The first one is the one that controls the to hit, damage and speed bonuses....

Thanks. Apparently I do have the GM fix installed. Since I've apparently been playing with this fix for years now I'll keep it in the game.