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Okay, here's my problem. I'm trying to figure out how to best make a character who is all or mostly an arcane caster (Sorcerer or Wizard) and focus mainly on melee combat. I realize this will be fairly hard to play, and won't be able to out-melee a fighter/barbarian/paladin/etc.
Right now I'm leaning toward Sorcerer and taking levels of Dragon Disciple to boost the combat ability somewhat. A splash of one level of paladin might not be a bad idea just to keep my saves up there and give me martial weapon proficiencies. I'll be skipping out on wearing armor (or at least any with %ASF) and instead wear Bracers of Armor and similar items.
I forsee this character buffing themselves like crazy (Bull's/Cat's/Eagle's/Endurance, various Armor spells, various weapon boosting spells) and then going to town. Obviously, Tenser's Transformation will be useful.. but I need a way to live that long
Can anyone suggest how this build would be best done?
Assume access to the game and both expansions (Since I"ll be going out to buy them both sometime today).
Well - what you need to determine is how much of the character that will rely on magic and how much will on meele damage.
After you find out what kind of spells you want to cast and what levels they are - you can start determining the class set up.
For instance - not taking many levels as sorcerer if you wish to meele most of the time etc.
Also remember, that most spells can be cast from scrolls (might be a more expensive way though), so fewer levels as spell caster might be more plausible.
As for spells - for a meele caster, Stoneskin and Visage spells are proberly more worth it then Tensers Transformation - because there are so many great weapons in the game, and especially in HotU, where you get to upgrade weapons. Tensers Transformation uses its own weapon, and not what you are wielding when "normal". Tensers Transformatin is more usefull (in my oppinion) for pure (or heavy) spell casters with little meele.
Other then that - it is mearly a question of "jumping" into the frey, so to speak, and see where it take you.
Ah, thanks. I wasn't aware of that. I'm really familiar with the pnp rules, but don't know all the changes that were made to the NWN engine to make it work out in a video-game environment.
What I want is for this guy to rely on his magic to augment and supply his melee damage. *ponders* I'll review the spell-list and see when it would be a good time to cut the levels of sorcerer and start taking Dragon Disciple. I was kind of hoping to hit Sorcerer again after I finished with DD, then take DD into epic levels.
I've been working with a Fighter/Sorcerer hybrid, and it has been working pretty well.
I went for specialization in two handed swords, although any dual wield could be equally effective. Why? Shields rack up the arcane failure rate, and the off-hand attacks make up for gaining multiple attacks slower.
Skillwise, you will want to keep your concentration up as best you can for defensive casting or casting near melee (Combat Casting helps here). Side points in Tumble to 10 ranks helps in the armor department.
For this, I went Ambidex, Two Weap, Exotic, focus: two bladed sword, and specialization. Later on I took Improved Critical and Improved Two Weapon Fighting. Blind fight helped a LOT in HotU because they keep going invis or casting Darkness
I also went for Dodge and toughness to make up for the fact that I really wasn't wearing much more than leather. I custom built myself a 'chain shirt' (4 armor, 4 dex) with no spell failure, but I later swapped it out for Greenleaf and it worked fine. I went as high as 20% spell failure with Armor of Command, but I would fail spells too reguarly
Spells you should think about getting:
Temporary spells: Greater Magic Weapon, Shield, Magic Armor. These can be taken off your list of spells once they no longer provide a beneficial bonus.
Utility spells: Identify (saves so much time), Find Traps (if you don't have an item that does it for you)
Defensive spells (take your pick, I may not use all of them myself): Protection vs Evil, Ethereal Visage (or better version), Bull/Cat/Endurance, Dispel (any), Resist Elements (for allies), Improved Invisibility, Globes of Invulnerability/spell mantles, Displacement.
Offensive spells: Keen Weapon + Flaming weapon (These two are a godsend for meleeing casters), Balagarns Iron Horn, Magic Missile, Firebrand, Death Armor/Elemental Shield/Acid Sheathe, Haste, Hold Person, Truestrike (+20 to all attacks in one round), Missile Storms
My fighter/sorc does have a few problems with being pounded on by high atk attacks, ranged (fixed by a greater archers belt), or hitting things with remarkably high armor classes. My character could never wear much better than leather. Endurance and Toughness make up well for the lack of health. With Keen/Flaming weapons, she tears through casters like hot butter, and is capable of defending himself and allies using most of the defensive spells. Firebrand was helpful in dealing with packs of baddies, while Magic Missile was a fallback used for single targets, bad situations, or an annoyingly locked/trapped door or chest.
I didn't use stoneskin because i'm aesthetically inclined, and I really don't care much for the retextured appearance of stoneskin.
I make up for that with damage reduction gear. Not saying that it's the only way.
Things to note:
Familiars: they are good to use in the classic campaign and Undrentide if you are maintaining at least even standings with your caster/melee classes, or have a higher caster level. I've noticed in HotU that despite stoneskin and Flaming Weapon (yes, you can Flaming Weapon your familiar ;p which was what made him rock earlier) that the familiar tends to run off and die too often.
Summons: I have never, ever really used a summon spell. I have always presumed the summons that I get as a hybrd will be too sub-par to expect anything out of it. I will likely take Summoning VI and get the tiger to see how it fares.
Henchmen: the best and worst part of the class is being able to pick any two henchmen you want. I went through Undrentide with the dwarf (who was a hybrid cleric/rogue), and went through the early stage of HotU with Deekin (I get a kick out of this guy) and the half-orc.
One last reminder: know when to run. You may be relying heavily on healing kits and potions, and supplies can run low fast with two or three 160hp+ characters. Run away, rest, return and kick butt. Trying to recharge that Rod of Ressurection in HotU can cost an arm and a leg that could go to upgrading your gear.
For summons I can only recommend "Black Blade of Disaster" - but that is not so usefull for meele/casters because of the concetrantion link.
But this summon is immune to physical damage - and can kick serious. Otherwise Mordenkainen's Sword is a powerfull summon, although a short duration one.
I was on the Island of the Maker messing around (level 12 Sorcerer, level 9 Fighter) and managed to get Summon Monster IV (the dire tiger).
It was about as useful as a wad of old chewing gum. Didn't even last that long with a mere 120 hit points, and buffing it was a near waste of spells.
Black Blade of Disaster is interesting.. of all the things that I did, that was the ONLY spell that could kill the Demilich ;p
yes. A level 12 Sorcerer, level 9 Fighter beat a demlich with a single scroll.
I have to admit though.. those 4 Summon ****ycat spells came in handy when I started draining the demilich of spell power (btw. demiliches have rediculous melee damage). Of course, shortly after I wasted two Disjunctions, two Spell Breaches, tensers transformation, and two Death to Undeath scrolls.
Also, I don't think my character could have single handedly taken down the mithril golems without True Strike and Haste in combination with the games bad pathing. Deek and Nyth just had to sit around and watch me do the work. (ressing them is a pain, but they're good cannon fodder when you need them)
Edit: Add
Btw, Rely heavily on True Strike+ haste (with Defensive Casting) in the tough fights. Landing upwards of 20-30 points of physical/elemental damage plus criticals per hit can help you bury melee-gods that seem to be blessed with complete spell immunities. alternating rounds between the recasting of the spell and pummelling them is far better than sitting there missing them 80% of the time. I took down a whirlwinding bastard, a good ten reloads (singled him out, yet he'd single handedly wipe my party), before I did this and he went down quickly.
I've only barely made it into Chap2 and have yet to see the MS-III (Dire Wolf) be useless.
If you were running at CL21 and attempting to use a MS-IV, then I would expect it to be outclassed; I would be surprised if the same thing happened with a MS-VI (available to the 12th level sorc) or MS-VII a couple of levels later.
It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion but it is better still to be a live lion - and usually easier.
I'm sorry, I meant VI (MS-6) which is the dire tiger (the last animal MS before elementals)
Here are a few ideas I've come across for 'epic' spellswords and the like:
-You CAN fully deal with high powered casters in a few ways: Use your familiar to get casters to use up their high powered spells before moving in yourself. Also, take time to keep around at least one of the following spell series: Dispel Magic, Spell Breach, and Spell mantle.
-It may be worthwhile to invest more heavily into your caster class and the Spellcraft skill to obtain Epic Mage Armor (+20 ac) and Epic Warding (insane damage reduc). Keep in mind you will need ungodly Spellcraft points, and will likely need to 'carry over' skill points from your melee class to fill it out (yes, you can do this).
-Try to get your primary caster score up to 19, then invest heavily into dexterity. If you can get your dexterity bonus high enough (natural score plus magic items and Cats Grace), you can walk around in robes with a decent AC and the coinciding 0% spell failure rate. Prior to this, you may not want to wear much heavier than Leather.
-Stoneskin won't help too much in HotU, a lot of the critters roaming around have no trouble hitting through 10/+1 reduc. Particularly the ones you really wish couldn't.
hi guys, i've been reading the posts and find it.. enlightening. i've got a few questions though, and was wondering if u'd bear with me:
i've been meaning to create a similar kind of character. not really a spellsword as you make yours with a good few levels of fighter/wizard, but more a battle-magi kind as i was kinda thinking of taking sorceror(x)/paladin(1) then maybe some (10?)dargon disciple levels. this will be a long term thing, as i aims to be something like sorceror(9)/paladin(1)/DD(5) by char level 15.
so my main question is, from your experience with battle-magi/warrior-magi builds, what do u think about this? or should i take out the DD levels for more paladin levels.
skills, i was thinking of pushing the sorceror skill +persuade to max. as for feats, i'mnot sure, but spell penetration and combat casting would be a must, then maybe metamagic feats? or do i focus on one weapon instead? i've read suggestion of taking double swords, but i was wondering if its word the feat? i mean, i was thinking of taking longswords and greatswords (leaning more to greatswords, but i have this feeling that longswords tend to get better magical properties).. than maybe focus and imp crit on it.. i'm quite lost, as i tried a new char with the HOU (so i get 15 free levels) i have the feeling of "too many feats i want, too little i can take" and "this is not necessary, that is not needed, what do i do with this feat slot?" at the same time. oh, can u "save" a feat slot like saving skill points?
As I usually say, then if you like the look/feel of a certain class combination - then it is good.
A character as you descipe will proberly have a hard time in the beginning of HoU because of low combat provess, but with the help of henchmen, you should be okay for some levels.
Personally - if I were to make a meele/caster I'd focus more on the meele in the lower levels, so something like reversing the paladin (or fighter or barbarian) and the sorcerer levels for the first 5 - so like paladin(5)/sorcerer(5)/RDD(5). And then afterwards focus on sorcerer and RDD.
But that is how I personally feel - there is no right or wrong when it comes to *your* character. Play as you feel you want - it is usually more fun
As for feats, I'd definately try and get some combat feats under the belt, I've played magic users often and very rarely use meta magic feats.
Oh - and lastly - you can't save feats like you can skillpoints (unfortunally - hehe - no, it would also be overpowering).
I've started to think of the class as more of a 'Spellbreaker'.. they seem remarkably capable of circumventing spellcasters (with Breach/Dispel/Mantle).
There are a number of variants you can use to play around.
Paladin/Caster for the more pious, although a Paladin Sorcerer is probably the best, although nearly any race save human or half elf will suffer exp penalties if they favor one class.
Arcane Archer/Caster is an archer-caster, rather than melee caster. Similar focus, different weapon style.
For you evil types, I'm sure you can pull off a blackguard/caster hybrid
Alternately, at any point in my characters development, I could have gone for several levels in Dragon Disciple, if not outright gone Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple. However, after much searching, I found the plethora of combat feats from the warrior class to be much suiting.
The only weakness i've found in the hybrid is that they tend to be particularly frail in the face opponents that can take advantage of their relatively low armor rating and hit points, and have weaponry or damage that surpasses the Breakers resistances. usually, these are barbarians and warriors with an unwarranted resistance to spells, and a certain demigod Devils.
Keep in mind that I have upwards of around 40+ armor.. with little more than a custom built robe with +4 dex. That's tough to call twinking when seen on an Epic ;p
I just wanted to add some tips about working with an arcane-melee hybrid:
Tip 1: Start off as a Sorcerer as your first level and go through the Prologue. You'll pick up a rod with an infinite-charge Frost Ray as a 'newbie toy'. This little gizmo is great for blasting locked chests and trapped doors.
Tip 2: Don't think that because you have two classes that you suddenly have twice as many skills. Not unless you like having half-powered skills and suddenly wonder why you can't take Epic Feats like Improved Combat casting or take Epic spells early. A Warrior/Sorc can concentrate in two skills primarily: Concentration and Spellcraft (for those two reasons above). Depending on your Int score (I usually go as high as 14 at start), pick up Discipline and Tumble. DO NOT spend points cross-class on skills that are not cross-class with your other proffession. Save points until you level up your other class and dedicate them then. Eg: I level up in Fighter. I put one point in Concentrate, One point in Discipline, try to raise Tumble, and save the last point for Spellcraft when I level my Caster class.
Tip 3: Early on, stick with Chain Shirts or scale mail. It provides probably the best balance between armor, max Dex bonus, weight, and arcane failure rate you can find. Once your dex goes over 18, think about lighter armor.
Tip 4: If you seem to be particularly frail, try taking advantage of what makes Parry stink so bad. If you drop below half health, toggle Parry on for a round, then turn it off. Enemies should stop attacking you and attack someone else instead.
Tip 5: Think about favoring either double weapons or two handed weapons. Shields incur unwarranted arcane failure penalties, and dual wielding means having to cast twice as many Keen/Flaming spells to enhance them. The advantage to Double Weapons is that you get extra attacks that you are missing as a hybrid, while using Two Handed weapons free up 3 Feats that could be spent elsewhere.
Tip 6: There are a number of effective combinations. Paladin/Sorcerer lets you focus almost exclusively on your charisma score, becoming something more than mortal in that respect in combination with the paladins' saves and Divine Might/Shield. Taking Barbarian as your melee means having oodles of extra hit points and some good bonus defenses and rage, while Fighter gives you tons of feats to work with. The advantage to Wizardry is their versatility, bonus spellcasting feats (room for Scribe Scroll, which can be invaluable), and high int (more skills!), and are a favored Elvish class. Sorcerers have the advantage of having more spells per day and always-available spells.
Tip 7: I would suggest a Human or Half Elf race if you are playing a Sorcerer or paladin hybrid. Other than this, I would recommend using a melee-caster combination where one class or the other is a favored race (Eg, a melee-wizard for elf, barbarian-caster for half orcs, melee-wizard for gnomes, etc). This is because of Tip 8.
Tip 8: Favor your caster class slightly, moreso once you pass level 20. Your melee aspect gains no matter which class you level up (attack bonus, hit points), but your caster-aspect gains no power from leveling your melee class. This accomplishes two things: Gets you more powerful spells earlier than a straight hybrid, and gets you closer to 9th level spells and access to Epic Spells like Epic Mage Armor and Epic Warding.
Tip 9: If you really want to try something unorthodox, try working towards a melee prestige class. An epic dwarf who is a level 6 Fighter, Level 6 Dwarven Defender, and a level 18 wizard with Epic Mage Armor/ Epic Warding is a fearsome force to behold! Berserk dwarf with Haste and a supply of self-scribed Time stop scrolls!
RE BAB advancement:
AFAIK - Fighters gain +1/Level:
Wiz/Sorc gains +1/??Levels? What about Rogue or Cleric?
How do the MELEE prestige classes advance - Arcane Archer, Dwarven Defender, Champion of Torm? What about the other non-base specific Prestige classes (AFAIK RDD advances at the same rate as a thief)?
My Sorc/Ranger/RDD has multiple attacks even though neither the Sorc or Ranger levels would allow them; do these simply become available once your BAB hits multiples of 6?[/list=1]
It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion but it is better still to be a live lion - and usually easier.
1.+2) The BAB for all the classes can be seen in the manual of Hotu (my version on p. 60)
(or if one doesn't have HotU the BAB for base classes can be seen in the original NwN manual p. 157)
3.) The attack bonus and number of attacks are depended of the character level and not only the class level, or rather this means the combined BAB for your character. If you check the tables you will see that every class gets 2 attacks per round at a BAB of +6, and 3 attacks per round at a BAB of +10.
So if you have a character with BAB +7 in one class and BAB +3 in the other class - you have an effective combined BAB of +10 and then have 3 attacks per round (with the connected BAB for second and third)
Hope this helps. (one can learn much from manuals )
Yea, base attack bonuses are cumulative, but only until level 20.
I was wrong in a few things in my suggestions, for a very good reason which is becoming more clear.
There is a big difference in melee capability between an 8 Fighter/ 12 Wizard and a 12 Fighter / 8 Wizard.
That difference is that the 8f/13w hybrid will be forever be stuck with 3 main hand attacks, while the latter will enjoy four for the rest of their career.
Furthermore, the attack bonuses gained during epic levels are identical, no matter which class you raise. This means that a character who was a 20th level fighter before gaining 20 levels in Wizardry will be melee gods compared to a level 20 wizard who takes 20 levels of fighter.
Strength enhancers are stacking for my character. The Uthgart amulet (quest item), a belt of giant strength (random magic item), and Gauntlets of Ogre Power (purchased in Luskan) EACH affect the STR stat for my character. With the natural increases for the RDD prestige class this makes for one powerhouse of a hitter doing more damage PER HIT (not counting his two-weapon fighting with a rapier in his off-hand) than Daelon. The implication is that they would also stack for other classes and raise average stats to levels normally seen only by melee classes.
It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion but it is better still to be a live lion - and usually easier.
yes, however, Offense is absolutely no issue for Spellswords and Spellbreakers. Flaming weapon can nearly double your damage output and blow up just about every destructible chest and door. A Hasted character with a rack of Trueshot spells is nothing short of a war god. I've beat some of the toughest melee NPC's in NWN in one or two rounds with it. It's almost outright sick. If you level up to 12 fighter / 8 caster (to get your 4th attack), then earn 9-10 levels in caster, you can get AutoQuicken by level 30 and you become a god with instant Haste, Trueshot, Vampiric, Combustion, Flame Arrow, whatever, and access to Time Stop. That is absolute carnage.
Defense is another matter entirely. Mage Armor is inneffective once you have at least one point each of Natural, Deflection, Armor AC, and I think Shield AC bonuses. Shield is obsolete with Rings of protection +4 and greater (or is it an armor AC bonus?). Thus, the class has to rely heavily on either a Small shield with the best enchancement bonuses available, and/or very high dexterity. I dedicate my levelup bonus attribute points on my Fighter/sorc into Charisma (until 19), then everything else into Dexterity. Expertise (not improved) can help in a pinch, too.. but usually only in combination with a Trueshot burst against things with high attack bonuses.
What I haven't decided on was what to do after level 30, if I get there. My choices as a Half-elven Fighter/Sorcerer are limited to either taking 8 more levels of fighter and having access to the bonus feats there, or going Dragon Disciple for 8 levels.. (the other 2 levels will go into Sorcerery for more Timestops/Black Blades)
