A Disturbing Trend?

Dark Stalker · Post by **Dark Stalker** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:31 pm

Hi there,

Is it just me or are more and more games coming out as incomplete or beta versions? I am by no means an expert on anything computer related, but I do remember when I was a kid you could pick up a computer game from the store and it would work properly out of the box as long as your system matched the recommended requirments. A few years ago, I caved in and bought my first computer. Even then, most games worked properly out of the box (I don't think I ever did put a patch on fleet command or WWII fighters) and the issues that were patched were mostly little glitches, not system crashing errors. I bought my second computer 2 weeks ago (actually built it from scratch, not too bad for a tech-illiterate like myself )

So the last little while I have been trying to download demos to decide which games to fork over what's left of my christmas cash with. Out of a handful of Demo's, Lock on Modern Air Combat is the only one that works properly. I won't waste everybodies time by listing which ones i've got, but the worst one won't even start. I get a flicker and that's about it (and yes my system is well above specs for that particular one)

I have spent some time wondering why this is. Is it because developers are being pushed harder by the higher ups in their respective corporations? Maybe, it's because there's a much wider variety of systems and configurations then there ever has been before and that makes it impossible to test a single game on each and every possible set-up? Maybe game corporations have cut back on the amount of testing they do before they release a game. I really don't know, but I doubt that I'm the only person in the world who downloads the demo before buying a game and I can't imagine why developers would knowingly release a demo that won't even start.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:48 pm

You have a bit of misconception. A BETA of a game is the initial stages, in which there are always bugs, glitches, incompatibility issues, and so forth, because it is the play testing phase, where these are to be discovered.

A demo, on the other hand, is usually after the BETA testing, and contains, normally, minimal glitches and bugs.

As for the specs, it's an interesting time, because there are major hardware developers, all vying to be the one for you, and thus creating tempermental equipment.

My best adivce would be to simply make sure all your drivers are up to date, as well as patching demoes (yes, some need patches) if possible.

CannibalBob · Post by **CannibalBob** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:01 pm

Yeah I noticed how games coming out now are flawed pretty badly. One Must Fall Battlegrounds was flawed very badly, where some features didn't even work. DO they even test their games? If you went through SP once, you'd notice the flaws right away and could fix it before release.

Of course, there are like 2 patches released every week, but what about the people who's internets are down, or who are on 14.4 modems or something? I think downloading patches is a nightmare for them, especially since game patches nowadays are so huge.

About the specs, game devs are making games look very nice and run not the best even on the greatest systems to date. Obviously because hardware will get much better in a few months. BUt I think that's bad for marketting, since the game will be cheap and a bit harder to find in a few months, especially the bad games that look nice but are crap.

Plus I think the errorless crashes are windows XP. I was running 98 but a week ago, and everything was perfect. but I put xp on, put on the latest drivers and stuff, and the crashes start. If you're desperate, try dual-booting, and compare. 98 is the best OS for games, but unstable for work. XP is best for work/internet/etc. but not too great for games (especially older ones, like games less than year 2000)

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:34 pm

Well, XP was never meant as a gaming platform, keep that in mind.

Also, to address a few things. KEep in mind that many developers aren't given all the time in the world to complete their games. So, while a game could have limitless potential, given the right amount of time, the producer of it wants it out by a certain date, otherwise it can't build up a large enough hype base for it. This often (more so these days dues to mass competition/purchasing) leads to buggy software. This is by no means the fault of the over worked, under paid people who make the games.

A prime example of a game that was rushed, was Neverwinter Nights. It's initial release held so many bugs, glitches and what not, that it wouldn't play on many systems, even if the specs met the recommended, and surpassed them.

These days, it's not about the quality of the game, it's about the producer's getting the coin for the game. But, even there, that's not entirely their fault. They need to produce more, to compensate for the loss of profit from the innumerable amount of software pirates out there. So, in a sense, it's because of the players that software is being pushed out into the market while it is still buggy.

BTW, time isn't always the best thing for a game. I mean, it ruing John Romero's career almost, with the infamous Daikatana flop...

CannibalBob · Post by **CannibalBob** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:55 pm

Oh I know that rushing out a game must be done, and that the devs can't test it as much as they want, but I was referring to One Must Fall Battlegrounds. It's been in development for around 5 years. That's LOADS of time to test the game a thousand times, and there were some so OBVIOUS bugs, like one tournament didn't even work (you win it as soon as you start). They probably set a variable wrong or something. If they tested it one time through, they could have found it easily!

I suppose NWN it's OK to have bugs at first, since it's mostly online, and most people who buy it will buy it for online, therefore patching isn't a problem. But games that are more single-player oriented, bugs should be very minimal. Nothing glaring (ie. game won't work on ANY ATI cards, or something like that).

Well OK XP isn't a "gaming platform", but is there an OS that is? If so, I want it!

-EDIT-

Post editted for content.

-Aegis

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:54 pm

And about the producers compensating for pirates by releasing games quickly, well, to be perfectly honest, I download a few games myself *CB hides his face in shame*. But mostly to try out games, see if they're worth the $60 price tag.

That's really not acceptable, @Cannibal Bob. I can understand wanting to try before buy, but is there no opportunity to rent a game in your area? If not, what about borrowing a friend's copy? Or reading a whole group of reviews, available for free on the Web? By downloading a game, whether you hold on to it or not, you're keeping pirates in business.

If a game is outstanding, it will DEFINITELY convert a few pirates, since they'll feel bad for downloading a game once they realize how great it really is.

Blatantly wrong, I'm afraid. According to a wide variety of articles, piracy is at an all-time high in Asia, where literally hundreds of thousands of copies of particular games are available for the local equivalent of a few dollars from pirates. The quality of the game doesn't convert anyone. It only establishes a "black economy" dedicated to bypassing the actual game developers, publishers and distributors, who don't receive a single cent of the profits that are rightly theirs. It stinks. There is no excuse for this.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:07 pm

Single player, or multiplayer. Neither should be buggy, at all. The way in which a game is played should have no bearing on the amount of playtesting, and the quality of how it performs.

Just because a game, or player, is played in single player mode, that doesn't mean they or it should get any special treatment for playtesting. Ideally, developers should be given enough time to play test the game thoroughly, and minimize any issues.

But again, it cycles back to the player. If a person downloads a game, or burns it, it's less incentive for the producers to make quality games. Many players blame the dev's and producers, not the players, who are to be rightly blamed.

As for you're particular comments, I'm deleting that portian, as it violates forum rules. Consider this a warning.

Aside from that, keep commenting. This is a good dicussion.

CannibalBob · Post by **CannibalBob** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:19 pm

Oops sorry for upsetting you!

But I guess one good thing about pirating is that it can bring down some companies. Personally, I'd love to see Microsoft, Activion and Electronic Arts fall flat on their faces, and would love to see the triumphant return of Black Isle Studios, wielding a magnificent Planescape Torment 2.

But I'll have to come back to reality now.

I can clearly see the dent piracy has done on PC games. I remember back in the early 90's, games were very well done, and they were cheap in stores too. I thought games would continually improve and improve, but obviously not. They seem to be disappointment after disappointment. Lots of console ports, too.

Console ports are on the high because console games sell as much as they should. You HAVE to buy a console game in order to play it. You could rent it, but that's still paying money. So it's cheap to port a console to PC, so that's what they do.

ps. Nowhere to rent. If I want to rent PC games, I have to ride my bike for an hour to Gamepros... and their selection is very poor!

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:44 pm

Originally posted by CannibalBob
But I guess one good thing about pirating is that it can bring down some companies. Personally, I'd love to see Microsoft, Activion and Electronic Arts fall flat on their faces, and would love to see the triumphant return of Black Isle Studios, wielding a magnificent Planescape Torment 2.

Where do you get the idea that withholding money from legittimate game developers and publishers is good, by any stretch of the imagination? I don't care if the developer is Microsoft or EA, they *still* deserve the profits that come from the money they spent on their games. And if they're publishing the games of somebody else, guess who is going to hurt the most by the decline in sales? The developer, whose product will look like a dud to the publisher. Far from hurting bigname publishers, ripping off or downloading games like you do hurts companies that make the products you enjoy. But of course, big name companies like Microsoft are just going to ignore lousy game sales because they know it's due to piracy, right? I mean, you mail a letter to Microsoft telling them that you didn't buy a game they published, not because you disliked it, but because you decided to go with a downloaded pirate copy, true?

Oh, yeah, piracy's a *real* good thing.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:58 pm

Piracy is, whether you want to accept it or not, one of the biggest causes for the decrease in game quality we are experiencing. When companies are getting the profits they projected during marketing campaigns, they adjust accordingly, and that almost always is in the quality department of the game development. If the producer sees the gaming community as not caring about the game, they view it in two ones.

One, they see the game as a failure, and not worth a repeat of that game, even if it was widely enjoyed, but pirated. It's not worth it to them to make another, because they didn't get what they deserved from the game. No credit, but lip service, goes to the developer, and no profit goes to the producer, even if the game is as popular as Half Life, or Star Craft.

The other way is to view it as a 'why bother' mind set. If a lot of effort is put into a game, and they get hardly any return because of piracy, well, where is the motivation to continue producing high quality games? This is mostly something smaller developers/producers suffer from. The giants that are Electronic Arts, Microsoft, and Activision don't worry about this too much, as for the most part, they produce the best quality games in the first place. Instead, what happens, is that they might stumble upon a real gem of a game, put a lot of effort into it, only to have the game pirated to a point, where it's not profitable for them to create another game of the same calibur.

This in turn leads to the closing of some of our beloved developers, the most notable recent one being Black Isle Studios, the talented division of Interplay. In the end, priacy will only make the gamer suffer, as developers and producers will find it less and less profitable to stay in the market, and switch to console, or even out of the market completely. Or, if they opt to continue, the quality will only detract, and finding good games will become more and more difficult.

CannibalBob · Post by **CannibalBob** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:16 pm

This is all very true. All games coming out/recently released are not completely bad though, and are still widely supported (ie. patches coming out). One example of a great game recently released is Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic (A Turn-based strategy/RPG, really ought to check it out if you haven't). But if this piracy keeps up, all PC games released will be of poor quality, or won't be released at all.

But there is still light at the end of the dark, slimy tunnel. Computers getting online w/ fast internet connections is increasing, and once the majority of computers are online w/ fast internet, much more effective copy protections can be made, where CD keys are checked online regulary, and more patches are released which makes the game harder and harder to "crack". There might even be some sort of protection built-in which checks for "cracked" games and stops their use.

M$ can play a HUGE part in stopping piracy by building in some sort of protection program that checks for "cracked" games and stops their use. There will be a lot of people complaining about that, but most don't realize that their pirating severely hurts game developers.

ISPs can also play a huge part in stopping downloading of copywritten material (specifically games. Who cares about music, most of it's crap anyway) but that will take a while for it to truly take form (ISPs refuse to do this, they say it's an "invasion of privacy").

Finally, the actual P2P programs should be targetted. If you start to shut down servers, or limit bandwidth or something like that (generally make it much more difficult and tiresome to download games) then that can play a huge part in the fight against piracy.

Post by **BuckGB** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:20 pm

Please keep in mind that promoting piracy in any way, shape, or form will not be tolerated in these forums. I don't mind if there is legitimite discussions about the adverse effects of piracy, but advocating it will only get you into trouble. Consider this a warning, CannibalBob.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:38 am

Originally posted by CannibalBob
<snip>
M$ can play a HUGE part in stopping piracy by building in some sort of protection program that checks for "cracked" games and stops their use. There will be a lot of people complaining about that, but most don't realize that their pirating severely hurts game developers.

<snip>

This will be cracked faster then they are developed. There has not been made anything safe in the computer world yet. Copy protection, crack protection - all of it can be circumvented or broken.

What is needed is an attitude change from people - users, not more "security".

Originally posted by CannibalBob
<snip>
ISPs can also play a huge part in stopping downloading of copywritten material (specifically games. Who cares about music, most of it's crap anyway) but that will take a while for it to truly take form (ISPs refuse to do this, they say it's an "invasion of privacy").

And how will this affect the download of legal copywritten material? Many vendors of software, music and so on have the option of downloading the material. By cutting download of copywritten material you not only hurt (wich I doubt anyways) "pricacy" but you will also eleminate one of the growing industries on the internet - the purchasing and downloading of music and software online.

Originally posted by CannibalBob
<snip>
Finally, the actual P2P programs should be targetted. If you start to shut down servers, or limit bandwidth or something like that (generally make it much more difficult and tiresome to download games) then that can play a huge part in the fight against piracy.

Well- P2P has much attention, P2P has the potential for being the most used medium for piracy due to its ease of use, but should we target the software or peoples morals?

---------------

As for the original poster: it is a trend that products seems more half-finshed then before, but this is due to several reasons, and personally, I doubt Piracy is more then one indirect reason.

The most common error in games, is driver support. There are many vendors of hardware, and many of harware components requieres their own drivers to run. This means that although the APIs (application programing interfact) might be somewhat similar their internal functions are not.
For instance graphics card: there are two major vendors of chipsets (Nvidia and ATI), these have a number of sub-vendors that purcase the chipset and integrates them in their own graphics card (leadtech, creative, asus and so on). Each of these vendors write drivers specific to their cards. On top of these factory drivers there are "generic" drivers out there - Nvidia ForceWare/DetonateDrivers are one.
On top of this - there are drivers needed such as Direct X wich the gameing companies program up against.
This means many factors that need to communicate, and anybody that has programmed a tad knows the problems that this can bring.
Add to this the problems with OS' and all other components that need to run, and you have mayhem. (Otherwise known as unstable software)

The PC has the wonderfull proberty that you can alter it almost as you see fit - this just brings that the games run much more unstable because there are many more things that can go wrong.

Another reason for lower quality games is the publics demands for "fluff". The games nowadays have to be graphical beuatiful, this is an increased difficult task because as the technology becomes better and allows for more lifelike graphics, the designers have to spend more time make the graphics more lifelike.
This removes resources from other areas, and what better to save resources on - then quality testing, because you will have other people paying to play the game. Let them test and find the bugs. Thus having the gamer test the games (so to speak) frees up resources for graphics design.

Lastly - the gaming market is cut-throat at the moment. We see company after company getting sold, closing down or re-structuring.

But all this leads to the fact that companies have to release their games with state-of-the-art technology, and release them as fast as possible; On top of this - they have to release to one of the most unstable-prone platforms.

(phew long rambeling - have likely forgotten something also

)

CannibalBob · Post by **CannibalBob** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:07 am

I've been thinking about this. Fable, you said piracy is at an all-time high in Asia. If you think about it, it doesn't really affect developers here, unless they have actually made a different-language version of a game and imported it to Asia. That of course costs money, and if they're not selling, they lose money. But since I don't see many American games imported to Asia, they don't lose money if the Asians steal them from America from the internet!

Back in the early days, piracy was still pretty strong. I remember BBS', how they had games available to DL. That was illegal, and still had a lot of traffic. Yet there were still many terrific games being made. The gaming community was also much smaller than it was now, which strengthens my argument that piracy was definitely an issue back then. (remember those piracy hotlines you can call, to report pir8es?) Games were cheaper back then, and were definitely better.

Yet now, piracy is an even stronger issue, but there are still many players who buy games (or would buy games). But many players do not actually buy games but download them instead, obviously because of costs, and the quality of the game.

Note this, an RPG with 100 hours of gameplay, full spoken speech and recorded cutscenes will span multiple CDs, true? Many players don't want to download that many CDs, as it takes a long time and is risky. They would definitely buy the game, but the cost is so high that they would rather not spend that kind of money. Also if the quality of the game is low (typical problems today are extreme system requirements, bugs or general console-port issues), that also contributes to the loss of sales.

So you see, piracy is definitely an issue, but I really doubt that it has such a strong impact on the decrease in quality of games today.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:51 am

Originally posted by CannibalBob
I've been thinking about this. Fable, you said piracy is at an all-time high in Asia. If you think about it, it doesn't really affect developers here, unless they have actually made a different-language version of a game and imported it to Asia.

There are tens of millions of people who speak English and live in Asia; the number grows, daily. English is what Italian, Arabic and Latin have been, at various times and in various places: the language of business. Have you ever been to Singapore? Or Hong Kong? Are you aware that they sell pirated copies of brand new Hollywood films, without subtitles, on the main market streets for less than $3 a piece?

Note this, an RPG with 100 hours of gameplay, full spoken speech and recorded cutscenes will span multiple CDs, true? Many players don't want to download that many CDs, as it takes a long time and is risky. They would definitely buy the game, but the cost is so high that they would rather not spend that kind of money. Also if the quality of the game is low (typical problems today are extreme system requirements, bugs or general console-port issues), that also contributes to the loss of sales.

It's easy to rationalize, but it comes down to this: there is simply no excuse, none whatever, for downloading a game you haven't bought. Don't know whether the game is good or bad? As I've written already, go read the reviews, more than a dozen of most, up on the Web. Go check out a friend's copy. Go rent one *legally,* in those country's that rent games.

The single greatest loss of revenue on a range of items, including games, films, and CDs, is now said to be piracy. The loss to sales in Asia alone is estimated in the billions of dollars per year.

You can't justify it, @CannibalBob. Dress it up as you will, it's still property theft. And it stinks.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:47 am

Originally posted by CannibalBob
<snip>
Note this, an RPG with 100 hours of gameplay, full spoken speech and recorded cutscenes will span multiple CDs, true? Many players don't want to download that many CDs, as it takes a long time and is risky. They would definitely buy the game, but the cost is so high that they would rather not spend that kind of money. Also if the quality of the game is low (typical problems today are extreme system requirements, bugs or general console-port issues), that also contributes to the loss of sales.
<snip>

With the bandwith and the technology in the hands of ordinary people - this is not true.
Besides, it only takes a some people to download and then burn copies for others - not everybody that uses piracy products downloads themselves.

Also - if the game is low quality, one dosen't have to buy it and one dosen't have to play it.

CannibalBob · Post by **CannibalBob** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:09 am

Sure it's theft of property in Asia, how games are being sold for very cheap, but does it matter? The gaming developers/publishers aren't actually losing money (unless they published a copy there), it's the sale in the US and Canada that counts (or Europe, depends on where the company is).

I'm not trying to justify piracy, but I'm trying to see that piracy isn't the sole cause of the decrease in quality of games today. It's got to be something else, high prices? Hype? Demand for more fluff? I'm not sure, but I can't see piracy as the sole reason.

And with the bandwidth, and burning copies, people will still find it easier to just buy the game (copy protections, patches, online play, manuals, etc.), but since they're so expensive, and with all the hype today, they feel that they need to play that game. The game may be low quality, but the hype and pressure makes them think it's good, or at least they have to play it.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:10 am

Originally posted by CannibalBob
And with the bandwidth, and burning copies, people will still find it easier to just buy the game (copy protections, patches, online play, manuals, etc.), but since they're so expensive, and with all the hype today, they feel that they need to play that game. The game may be low quality, but the hype and pressure makes them think it's good, or at least they have to play it.

Just going to make a quick comment on this part right now, as I don't have a lot of time.

It's not a matter of how easy it is to pirate a game that makes people want to do it. It's the fact that they don't wish to pay for the game. IF they can get a popular game, for only the cost of a blank CD, then they will do it. Besides, the act of cracking the CD is simple, as you merely download a no-CD file, which, sadly, can be found in abundance these days.

Not only that, but many of this downloaded games come with the manual in PDF format, which is easily referenced. In addition, Hype is just another reason to download, as it's more cost efficient then potentially buying a game that doesn't live up to hype.

The matter of Piracy is as inconsequential as you're making it sound, and it is a massive role in the degradation of the gaming, and even the movie industry. While you are right, it is not the sole aspect (and we never said it was), it is one of the largest.

One last note, game Dev's and Publishers do release games in Asia. We have members on this board in live in that area of the world, and are able to buy legit copies of the games they play, so the industry is losing money in those sections of the world.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:07 pm

Sure it's theft of property in Asia, how games are being sold for very cheap, but does it matter? The gaming developers/publishers aren't actually losing money (unless they published a copy there), it's the sale in the US and Canada that counts (or Europe, depends on where the company is).

Let me repeat what I just wrote: "The single greatest loss of revenue on a range of items, including games, films, and CDs, is now said to be piracy. The loss to sales in Asia alone is estimated in the billions of dollars per year." Billions, not millions. In fact, back in 1998, the IDSA (Interactive Digital Software Association) estimatd that piracy cost the US PC and console gaming industry $3.2 billion dollars. That was worldwide, six years ago. Now, approximately that figure is given for Asia, alone.

Bottom line is, hundreds of thousands of copies of individual games are not being sold, but pirated, which makes publishers think twice about cutting new deals with the ripped off developers. Fewer game copies sold, fewer games commissioned and published. You wonder where the quality goes? Why should companies spend a fortune for a new game that's going to be ripped off and lose half its sales or more the first day it hits the streets?

CannibalBob · Post by **CannibalBob** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:56 pm

They don't need to spend loads of money to create a great game. I've seen games that have lots of money spent to make it (ie. Deus Ex 2) yet it ends up being a garbage game. Well, that's they're bad, they make a bad game, it loses money, it's how it goes. If it was good, people would still buy it.

And in Asia, my point is that if the publishers haven't actually published a copy in Asia, who cares if they copy it. It's like aliens stealing satellite signals from Earth: the Earthlings aren't losing anything and aren't gaining anything, so it doesn't matter. But if the publishers have shelves and shelves of a certain game unsold, while they spend millions on packaging, advertisements, CDs, manuals, etc. and they're getting no revenue, then that's the real problem, not non-existant physical games not getting sold.

And about PDF manuals, who in their right mind is happy with that? A real manual is worth the money, one that has actual content that you'd actually refer back to while playing. Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, BG2, NWN, etc. have good manuals. Plus they're good reads in the bathroom, and who would bring their computer in there anyway?