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Finished it, didn't like it.

This forum is to be used for all discussions pertaining to BioWare's Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic.
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blsilks
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Post by blsilks »

One should also consider the fact that this game was initially designed to run on a game console like XBOX and not supposed to be the oh mighty god of all rpgs just smashing Everquest right out of the way. I would have to say that for a game designed for XBOX and reconfigured for a PC, its pretty darn good. Now if your wanting to make a GOD of all RPGs then you have to totally leave xbox and playstation right out of the pictures because its going to require an online server for infinate amounts of hard drive space. Your expectations for this game are too high. If you want something better then go out and make the game yourself. As far as im concerned its a work of art and a doorway to the future for other games. The bar has been raised.
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Post by Xandax »

The fact that it is a console port is something many of us have stated, and recognizes.
But that doesn't change the fact what I personally think of the game.
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by blsilks
As far as im concerned its a work of art and a doorway to the future for other games. The bar has been raised.


Other than technically (and that's questionable), in which ways has the "bar been raised?"
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Post by Xandax »

Originally posted by blsilks
<snip>Your expectations for this game are too high. If you want something better then go out and make the game yourself. <snip>


Besides - after reading so many previews and reviews, expectations of the game can hardly be to high
(luckily - I rarely listen to such magazine reviews).
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Post by blake »

Voice acting and Voice over are only tools to help build athmosphere. They aren't substitutible for good and unprecidtable dialog, wich some feel were lacking (I know I do).


Uh?

SPOILER!





Dude you are REVEN!
HOW MUCH MORE OF A PLOT TWIST CAN THERE BE? You grow to hate this man or woman, depending who you play as and the that person turns out to be you! thats the greates plot twist ever!
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Post by Xandax »

Originally posted by blake
Uh?

SPOILER!





Dude you are REVEN!
HOW MUCH MORE OF A PLOT TWIST CAN THERE BE? You grow to hate this man or woman, depending who you play as and the that person turns out to be you! thats the greates plot twist ever!


Firstly - that "twist" was visible trueout a large part of the game, after you start your jedi training, and really didn't come as much surprise. (well - not to me anyways, can't speak for others of couse :cool: )

Secondly - we are talking about how voice over/voice acting isn't substitutable for good NPC dialog. There can be countless of hours of voice over for NPC dialog, but it is no substitute for good dialog. Only a *tool* to help the atmosphere of a game, not making it good.
That is what the quote you made of my post says, and nothing about the plottwist. It was your mentioning that the voice acting was great in response to people feeling the NPCs following you were "non-alive".
And still, I really don't think the dialog was all that good - it was clearly a game build for action where the "softer" issues (NPC/party dynamic, dialog, cause/effect) were neglected.
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Post by Aegis »

Originally posted by Xandax
Firstly - that "twist" was visible trueout a large part of the game, after you start your jedi training, and really didn't come as much surprise. (well - not to me anyways, can't speak for others of couse :cool: )

Secondly - we are talking about how voice over/voice acting isn't substitutable for good NPC dialog. There can be countless of hours of voice over for NPC dialog, but it is no substitute for good dialog. Only a *tool* to help the atmosphere of a game, not making it good.
That is what the quote you made of my post says, and nothing about the plottwist. It was your mentioning that the voice acting was great in response to people feeling the NPCs following you were "non-alive".
And still, I really don't think the dialog was all that good - it was clearly a game build for action where the "softer" issues (NPC/party dynamic, dialog, cause/effect) were neglected.
Not only that, but the story of the Protagonist being the old major villian has been done a number of times, and isn't the unique.
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Post by Armisael »

Originally posted by blsilks
Now if your wanting to make a GOD of all RPGs then you have to totally leave xbox and playstation right out of the pictures because its going to require an online server for infinate amounts of hard drive space.
Huh? The last thing I want to play is a MMOG... and unless my memory is failing me, no one said anything about making the God of RPGs. Me, I was disappointed because KotOR was such a great step backwards from previous BioWare titles (shorter, easier, more dumbed down rule system, no tactical element, less freedom of choice). Also, please don't throw that age-old "you want something better make it yourself" adage in our faces; this isn't a meal prepared by our mothers, it's a product we all bought and paid for.
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Post by Sethernis »

Say whatever you want, but fact is a fact: KOTOR is mostly thought as great fun. It doesn't matter what you think.
KOTOR is a great game, period. You may have your opinions, np, But remeber some people want no dialog and all action and others may´want to have it reverse. Bioware could have done this game as Mordor man said, but they have to think of all playstyles, not only yours.
I like both action and dialogs, should the developers **** about me, and do as you wish? I don't think so. BG I & II are great games, but i don't think bioware just try to make a BG clone just in star wars. Sure, many people are like mordor man, and many as me and some are also diffrent. It's better to find an balance between all playstyles, but still remember this is an RPG.I think they made a great job, balancing. Many more agree with me, and less disagree.
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Post by Xandax »

Of couse they can make their games as they like - and of course there are many "out there" that likes or even loves the game and hails it as the best game of the year/ever or best RPG ever or what I have seen people/rewiews claim it to be. People have different taste - luckily. Otherwise we'd seen diablo 500 by now :rolleyes: :D

But that doesn't stop or have to stop, people from having disagreeing and airing their oppinions also, even if they are agaist other peoples views and negative towards the game.

I bought SW:KotOR and got dissapointed, and will think twice before bying another similar product. And you can bet that my oppinon and thoughts matter - just as much as all the people that praise the game..
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Post by Fnord »

Originally posted by Sethernis
Say whatever you want, but fact is a fact: KOTOR is mostly thought as great fun. It doesn't matter what you think.
Of course it does. This is a forum for people to voice their opinions about the game, whether positive or negative, and everyone's input "matters." It's asinine to suggest that people who had complaints with the game have no say-so simply because there are more people that thought it was great.

KOTOR is a great game, period. You may have your opinions, np, But remeber some people want no dialog and all action and others may´want to have it reverse. Bioware could have done this game as Mordor man said, but they have to think of all playstyles, not only yours.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion... man. Not fact. It's time to relearn the difference between the two. KotOR is not a great game if I say it isn't, because greatness is subjective. :D

I like both action and dialogs, should the developers **** about me, and do as you wish? I don't think so. BG I & II are great games, but i don't think bioware just try to make a BG clone just in star wars. Sure, many people are like mordor man, and many as me and some are also diffrent. It's better to find an balance between all playstyles, but still remember this is an RPG.I think they made a great job, balancing. Many more agree with me, and less disagree.
Well, yes, I would have liked for Bioware to design a game with less concern for appealing to the least common denominator of the gaming public. Balance is good for Bioware, but not for me. That's just my opinion.

As for more agreeing with you than disagreeing, well... it's a good thing we're not running a popularity contest, huh? Otherwise that might actually matter.
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by Sethernis
Say whatever you want, but fact is a fact: KOTOR is mostly thought as great fun. It doesn't matter what you think.


Sethernis, this is a forum, where the site owner has repeatedly expressed an interest in the exchange of views. When you get your own forum, you can insist that only your views matter. Until then, I suggest you follow the rules on this one. Either quietly ignore what you don't want to hear, or listen to opposing opinions and enter into the discussion with the same degree of respect for others that you want for yourself.
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Post by Sethernis »

People might have missunderstood what i meant with "it doesn't matter what you think". It DOES NOT mean, i am right, you're wrong. It DOES mean that to me it doesn't matter what you think,i will still think the same, but you may have your opinions.
Glad we sorted that out. I think Bioware didn't want to make it too hardcore, to scare away people who like only "action" or no "action". It's all about the money.
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Post by fable »

Sethernis, there was never anything to sort out, because I don't think anybody believed you were automatically right, and they were automatically wrong. It was always understood that you were stating your own opinion. The problem lay in the fact that you expressed your opinion in a rude manner.

As mentioned above, please read and abide by the forum rules in the future. If this means keeping to yourself the fact that you believe your opinions are the only ones that count, consider doing so. ;)
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Post by Sethernis »

Ok, i understand fable, and i'm sorry. Rude manners don't beling here and i will don't take them here on either.
Just had a very very bad day at the moment i wrote that.
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Post by OzzelTheFool »

My Two Cents, Pennies, Rupees, Yen, whatever

The game is all about evolution in a lot of respect. And a lot of respect is what i accord to KOTOR. Yes, the game has its detractors and supporters but give credit to Bioware where its due, they are trying to come up with a product that THEY think is EPIC, revolutionary (only in some aspects), a great story (better than Ep 1,2) etc.

My point is that there are always software companies that will push the envelope bit by bit with each of their new releases and Bioware has outperformed most so far. So it really bothers me that there are people who detract about (apart from bugs, which are justfiable to detract, i'm no exception) the game not having originality, storyline wise, gameplay wise. They have dared to take that first step to make a grand scale heck of a game and the mark of a great game is the many awards it has garnered and the replayability of the game, more than most games on the market so far.

Have to stress that i'm no bioware employee. but i support their works because they have not let me down in most titles so far. And its not fair for some people to "boycott" their future games just because this one falls short of their skyscraper expectations. It has to be judged upon a case by case basis.
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Post by MordorMan »

Ozzy, who is talking about boycotting Bioware? Have you read the previous posts in this thread? Many people have expressed their towards KOTOR, some like it, some don’t, and some have mixed feelings. I think the people criticizing the game have done so in a very reasonable manner and are acknowledging the fact their views are personal and that is understandable that not everyone agrees on the matter.

Precisely the fact that Bioware is held in high regard by many RPG lovers has led to some disappointment with some who felt the game did not live up to their expectations. But I don’t think these people will boycot Bioware in the future. That would not be reasonable, you can not expect a software company to make games that fit your personal tastes every time. Expressing the hope that their next title might have a bit more ‘depth’ is a different matter altogether.

I for one feel the discussion in this thread enlightening. It is nice to know there a few people who have somewhat similar feelings about how a RPG should be. I just hope those people form a big enough market niche for the games industry. I certainly am anxiously awaiting any new Bioware stuff.
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Post by Xandax »

Re: My Two Cents, Pennies, Rupees, Yen, whatever
Originally posted by OzzelTheFool
The game is all about evolution in a lot of respect. And a lot of respect is what i accord to KOTOR. Yes, the game has its detractors and supporters but give credit to Bioware where its due, they are trying to come up with a product that THEY think is EPIC, revolutionary (only in some aspects), a great story (better than Ep 1,2) etc.


So we should give credit to Bioware because *they* think it is *epic* and they think it is revolutionary and have a great story?
Well - I'm sorry, but I never give credit to a game or a company based on what the company themselves are thinking of their game.
Bioware have (had) credit in my book due to releasing some truely epic games like the BG-series.

Originally posted by OzzelTheFool

My point is that there are always software companies that will push the envelope bit by bit with each of their new releases and Bioware has outperformed most so far. So it really bothers me that there are people who detract about (apart from bugs, which are justfiable to detract, i'm no exception) the game not having originality, storyline wise, gameplay wise. They have dared to take that first step to make a grand scale heck of a game and the mark of a great game is the many awards it has garnered and the replayability of the game, more than most games on the market so far.


You are right that companies will push the envelope, but often I and many others that have gamed for many years, find the enveloped pushed more and more towards emphazising(sp?) on the fluff, such as graphics and sound/music and less on gameplay and AI. But I am not really suprised, it is much more complicated to develop good AI and good gameplay, where developing sounds/graphics and suchs, actually is more timeconsuming then complicated.

But why does it bother you that some people find the gameplay to be lacking, the RPG elements to be severly lacking, the story to be simple and you forgot - the AI to be non-existing ;)
And if you compare to the other main-stream games that are on the market, you are right - this one seems more "deep", but that, still doesn't mean I feel biowares otherwise high-standard have been kept here. Just because other games aren't as good, dosen't mean they have to lower their quality.
I don't see Bioware performing much "extraordinary" in regards of this game, the graphics are good, but they are not pushing any envelope. The sound is good - but so is it in many other games. The gameplay, storyline and AI is not good - it is the same in many other games.
They have gone down the road most travelled in their later games, and it is a choice they have made - it is likely to aim more games at the casual gamer, and thus they can't make them to complicated.

As for replayability, I've played this game to finish more once and two times about half way through. The game offered no challenges (it was way to easy) and not much variation.
It is very rare I don't replay a game at least a few times, I can actually not think of any other game I've played less currently.
Originally posted by OzzelTheFool

Have to stress that i'm no bioware employee. but i support their works because they have not let me down in most titles so far. And its not fair for some people to "boycott" their future games just because this one falls short of their skyscraper expectations. It has to be judged upon a case by case basis.


I doubt many people will boycott Bioware - I however will think twice, and trice, before purchasing another of their products. Bioware have started to let me down, so to speak, with simplistic RPG games. And I don't agree that games should be judge independently, I think they should be judgde in comparison with both the marked trend and in the light of previously released and future relases from same company.
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Post by Emancipator »

I think that the story is not so much "bad" as uninspiring, and "same old". With being a huge fan of Star Wars, i have read about 150 novels, so I have some experience of plots in the SW universe.

The most unremarkable books I have read have been when "Villain X" gets hold of "Superweapon Y" and "Band of Heroes Z" have to destroy it.

KotOR has some small variety on this theme, but not enough to obscure the fact that it has been used time and again and is now looking pretty weak. (The only MAJOR variable is the fact that you are the Arch-Villain)

Despite this, I think that KotOR has to be in my top 3 of Star Wars games, and probably in my top 10 of all time. It has also been my introductory game into "serious" roleplaying on the PC so I'm probably going to go out and by some of the most popular e.g. Baldurs Gate, Anachronox etc. :)
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Post by fable »

Re: My Two Cents, Pennies, Rupees, Yen, whatever
Originally posted by OzzelTheFool
The game is all about evolution in a lot of respect. And a lot of respect is what i accord to KOTOR. Yes, the game has its detractors and supporters but give credit to Bioware where its due, they are trying to come up with a product that THEY think is EPIC, revolutionary (only in some aspects), a great story (better than Ep 1,2) etc.


Epic, revolutionary? The game had a brand new graphics engine, but 3D RPGs have been done very successfully, before: if we're going to praise anybody for that, we probably should celebrate John Cutter's team who did the very first 3D RPG back in 1993, Betrayal at Krondor. Or Bethesda Softworks, because Morrowind (which has been out for more than a year) uses the terrain more strategically than KotoR ever does.

There is nothing epic about KotoR, at least in any sense of the word I'm aware of. You don't control millions of warriors, you don't have an enormous, wide-open series of terrains, and you can't maintain dozens of quests at the same time. BG2 was actually far more epic in its feel of size. It cleverly disguised its linearity better than KotoR.

While everybody will maintain their own opinion on such matters, the general consensus seems to be that KotoR's story is cliched and over-used. Not to give away spoilers, but I knew as soon as Carth began voicing some suspicions just who had a secret identity and what it really was. Yes, the story was well-handled, and the cutscenes were attractive, but nobody can play cutscenes, so I don't count 'em as gameplay.

There are a lot of good things about KotoR, IMO. It plays well, its balance of feats and powers are good, the dialog is lively, and the graphics engine is attractive. But in some ways it represents a very diplomatic retreat from the advances in RPG features offered in BG2--and that's a calm statement of fact, not a matter of opinion. The devs deliberately set about creating a game that would appeal to a broader age group with a lower end, which accounts for the absence of inter-party combat due to alignment conflicts, party members taking over control of events, and dumbed-down puzzles. If you've played BG2, then you know whereof I speak. If you haven't played it, or PS:T, Morrowind, etc, what grounds are you using for comparison in your remarks? :)
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