the kensai-->mage versus the fighter/mage

Thrain · Post by **Thrain** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:33 pm

i've been thinking about this quite a while and some things have struck me:

- depending on the race you chose for the FM, you get resstance to magic/longswords bonus/resitance to charm/stat alterations, whereas the plain human KM gets none of the above.

- the KM gets grand mastery in any weapon you choose, although this is not so much of a bonus with the nuked proficiency chart.

- assuming you dual over from the kensai at level 12 you get +4 to hit (which is more important than +4 to damage on some opponents) which, at the SoA exp cap makes the KM more likely to hit than the FM

- up until the ToB exp cap (which, honestly, no-one reaches unless they solo), the KM gets more spells. the FM only gets higher level spells later on in the game.

- at 5 million exp (the average a character in a party reaches in ToB) the KM still has more spells and a slightly better THAC0

- at higher exp, however, the FM accelerates and gets a base THAC0 of 0, whereas the KM is stuck with the limits on the mage THAC0 (base of 9 from the dual class, 5 with the bonus)

- at the ToB cap, the KM is level 24 mage(assuming you dualled at level 12) and the FM is level 20 mage. this doesn't matter in terms of damage dealt by spells, but the KM has more higher level spells (and the FM CANNOT access the high level dragon's breath and comet spells - or any other level 10 spells for that matter)

so my question to you, as a powergamer, of these two 'powerful' characters (as most guides i've read list these as the two most powerful/useful. the only consistant arguments presented for other classes were a berserker cleric and the blade), which is the most powerful?

Numinor · Post by **Numinor** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:46 pm

Why shouldn't the fighter mage be able to get Dragon's Breath/Comet etc. ?
A 24/20th level fighter/mage has 2 level 9 spells and can surely cast Dragon's Breath if he chose the HLA.

And I usually reach the ToB experience cap with a party of 4 shortly before Balthasar

nephtu · Post by **nephtu** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:31 pm

A few points on this..

Some pretty munchkinesque classes you missed are Kensai-thief (Kensai THAC0, plus Use any Item, backstab, etc.) - ouch!, fighter-cleric (cleric self buffs on a fighter, yum!) Cleric-Ranger (all the Druid and Cleric spells, plus decent THAC0) and plain old Sorceror (burn, baby, burn!).

Do we aware that it's dead easy to make a kensai-mage multi with Shadow keeper, so you aren't limited to just human kensai-mages.

Generally, dual classes have the weakness of later kick-in of HLAs - a Kensai(12) dual will not see any till 4 million EXP, where the multis will see them at ~3. There's about 34 million EXP through the end of ToB (~38 million with tactics), so, as Numinor said, a 4 person party will cap out, and a 5 person party can get there with a little jiggery-pokery.

Personally, I prefer multi-s to duals, as they get better access to HLAs, which are pretty powerful, but it really is a question of taste.

Good gaming!

Mini Me · Post by **Mini Me** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:45 pm

ToB exp cap = 4 hours continually resting in the fire giant house. Thats what my brother did.

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:12 pm

Well I have to say that the berserker/mage far outshines all other fighter/mages. Practically every mage you fight will cast symbol stun and fear. They also cast remove magic and other things, enrage cant be dispelled. Many monsters cast charm or confusion. Liches casts maze and imprisonment. Enrage stops the lot. They can use all equipment unlike the kensai/mage. This isis a big minus for the kensai/mage. Shields are nice to have sometimes...Also a raging berserker with gloves of weapon expertise or extraordinary specialization has basically the same combat bonuses as the kensai. In this game it is all about being really strong when it matters and the berserker/mage is just that.
Another important factor that tips the scale towards the dual classes is the power of their simulacrums. Granted the multi simmie gets access to fighter HLA but not the higher spells.
I find that berserker dualed at level 9 is the ultimate character if you want to be a fighter/mage. The thaco is enough for most battles and when it isn't have either you or your simmie cast tensor if you want to melee.
Also kensai/mages cannot use vhailors, a very useful item early on.
Kensai/mages are cool but berserker dualed at level 9 to mage is pure class!!
You regain your fighting skills so fast aswell.
I would say Berserker9/mage is the best and second comes the gnome fighter/illusionist (better saves and more spells).
Than it is evenly matched between the other combos. Dualing at level 12 or thirteen takes away alot from the game aswell... atleast for me.

Rataxes · Post by **Rataxes** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:34 pm

The Fighter/Mage is more powerful for the simple reason that he will eventually gain Fighter HLA's. Improved Haste + Critical Strike/GDeathblow/Power Attack Smite are ridiculously powerful combinations.

Numinor · Post by **Numinor** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:35 pm

Try that combined with Time Stop and Black Blade of Disaster...

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:43 pm

Level 9 or 10 is a very good level to dual to a mage. To druid at level 12 and cleric at level 7 or 9. To thief you can dual later but normally you would be better of with a multi here. Multi fighter druid is probably better aswell. But I think duals are better for mages and clerics as they get really powerful at higher levels but it all depends on how you play your character.
Kensai/thief or wizardslayer/theif have some advantages over the multi f/t I guess.
Dualing a berserker at level 9 also means you dont waste any proficiency slots. Just level up to level 6 mage and from there you dont level up until you have 250 000 xp, this is not hard to do at all.
Ah well, the options are many. Nice game yes?

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:50 pm

On the offense they are more powerful but defense is nice too IMHO. Enrage is priceless.
I guess it depends on your playing style.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:39 pm

Dueling at 9 to a mage is sensible. You can also (if you wish) dismiss your party, and learn all the spells you've gathered in the intro dungeon to work yourself up quickly to level 9 for your new profession. Throw in a potion of master thievery, a thief, and a few visit to some local vendors, and you'll hit level 10 and activate your old profession before you venture forth onto any new quests.

Of course, all this is cheese. I don't recommend it, but this place has had a bad effect on my morals, I'm afraid.

Mirk · Post by **Mirk** » Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:36 pm

To me, a beserker/mage just does not feel right. The beserker’s rage is just that – a rage. A state of mind that focuses on going crazy for some short time in order to kill his enemy faster. Even if it kills him in the process. This is exactly what a spellcaster/warrior entering combat will not do – he will prepare himself, at the beginning of the day with long-lasting protections and contingencies, and shortly before/at the beginning of the fight with the buffs/protections most suitable. He will research and study his spells and his opponents, becoming an expert tactician and strategist. Not going “whraaaaa…” every time he meets a half-decent foe.
Now, both kensai/mage and fighter/mage qualify for this type, imho. The differences between them can be classified into two dimensions: roleplaying and powerplaying (ahh, doesn’t everything?

)

Figher/mage for me is to elves what paladin is to humans. The ultimate champion, leaning on the race’s heritage, strengths and abilities. An agile sword demon in the ultimate Elven Chain Male (one if the most, if not THE coolest avatar in BG2 is a chainmailed elf, imho). The Bladesinger.

Kensai/mage is the super-focused super-specifically-trained warrior going to school to be even better in what he is best – killing people with his favored weapon. I once hacked a kensai/mage to use a robe wearing avatar, and he became the real BG2’s Jedi Knight he is.

From powerplaing perspective, the pros and cons (as pointed out by other posters) of both outweigh each other quite evenly, for me. The choice here should be based on what party members you mean to go with, ToB or SoA only, and of course, what do you want the char to feel like, based on the above comparison.

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:00 pm

Granted it seems a bit strange that you can still cast spells while enraged but hey it is only a computer game. It is very effective a tell you.
Berserker level 9 dual to anything is a great dual.
But you are right, the bladesinger chain sure looks cool. And a kensai/mage with quarterstaff also looks cool.
The multiclass is very powerful at the cap that is true but from say 3 million xp to 6 million xp the fighter 9 dual mage is clearly better, especially so with the berserker mage as enrage frees up so many spell slots.

Mirk · Post by **Mirk** » Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:32 pm

my first SoA char was a kensai 9/mage. i used him as high-HP, low saves, will-ocasionally-go-into-melee-against-kobolds spellcaster. he was also the sole mage in my party for most of the game. only when i got imoen back, and by chance put him in the heart of combat (where a kensai belongs!) i understood my mistake. after that, i have creatred melee-oriented kensai/mages, who memorize buffing spells and Breach almost exclusively, and i always have another mage for the more general "disabilitator/nuker" role. that's why i almost always dual-class at level 13, thus getting the fullest out of the warrior class (the extra 1/2 attck always matters, as there's no whirlwind for the kensai/mage, while another lvl 9 spell will matter in a single fight). this is especially true if thee kensai is to use weapons that have "XX% chance of [effect] on hit" wepons, which he should.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:26 pm

Originally posted by fable

Of course, all this is cheese. I don't recommend it, but this place has had a bad effect on my morals, I'm afraid.

shame on you, fable, i never ever ever ever use cheese...or condone such naughty things...

you know, having heard people say dual at level 12, dual at level 9, just what is the difference??? with or without xp cap remover???

as far as i can tell, its just a few spells at level 9...which really shouldn't be a factor, since the kensai mage's important buffing spells exist at lower levels...

of course on the opposition is the 9th level dual, which means an extra slot at level 9, so timestop and attack with swords...

so really its an extra attack as opposed to an extra spell at level 9???

so i guess it would depend on whether you play kensai/mage or mage/kensai...

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:09 am

Dualing at level 9 means fighter 9 mage 30 dualing at level 12 means gets you to mage 28 and so does dualing at level 13. I dont think there is a difference in the spellbook of a level 28 and level 30 mage (apart from the better remove/dispel magic) but I could be wrong here. Dualing at 12 seems like the worst choice of the three, especially if you are not a kensai.
The problem with dualing at level 13 is that you need 2 750 000 xp to regain your fighting skills. Dualing at level 9 requires 500 000 xp before you are a fighter/mage.
If you are patient and want a thac0 that is 4 points better (5 for the kensai) and an extra half attack then 13 is the best choice to dual at.
Personally I dont think a thac0 of 0 or -4 makes that much of a difference. Being in the underdark as a level 6 mage makes a difference though

Also if you want power towards the end of the game kensai13/mage28 is probably better then berserker/mage. Enrage makes less of a difference later on. Early on it helps ALOT.
It makes a difference if you are stunned, mazed, charmed, confused, panicked, held, imprisoned or not

Squee · Post by **Squee** » Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:33 am

WHAT! A Fighter/Mage doesn't get the super-power-mega-awesome lvl 10 spells!!! You must be joking! Why do you not get them?

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:19 am

A fighter/mage gets them, a fighter/mage/thief does not.

Zephyralien · Post by **Zephyralien** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:05 pm

I've played both... Kensai/Mage was fun but very frustrating at times. Fighter/Mage is a lot more fun and a bit more powerful and less frustrating