What would you like to see in any new RPG's
- Stilgar
- Posts: 4079
- Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 11:00 am
- Location: The Netherlands - Sietch Tabr
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What would you like to see in any new RPG's
For a single-player-RPG what would you like to see (could be D&D based doesnt have to be)
For me well, i would like to see a better replay value for most RPG's.
And I think this can be aquiered by bigger differences in classes. That's why i dont realy like the third edition rules (IWD2, NWN) it's just to tempting to give your thief one level of ranger so he/she can dualwield or give a cleric 1 level of fighter so you gain all the proficiencies.
And in RPG's like BG2 i always do the same quests in the game (all of them ) but why can't Nalia say to me that if i decide to go after Firkraag, that she will get some other group to help here. That way your more tempted to restart and then help Nalia.
Another good BG2 example is why do the shadowthieves ask for the help of my Paladin with M'vaer.
And finally i would like some more rollplaying by allignment. By doing a something good with an evil character you get an experince penaly, and the other way around. And this penalty can be so big that the reward just isnt worth it. That way you are forced into rollplaying. Also NPC's should have a better will of their own. WHen i have 20reputation, and i start killing inocents, Minsc just hacks away untill i drop to low, and then he says he will leave.
This is just a brainstorm of some things, maybe I will come up with more later.
For me well, i would like to see a better replay value for most RPG's.
And I think this can be aquiered by bigger differences in classes. That's why i dont realy like the third edition rules (IWD2, NWN) it's just to tempting to give your thief one level of ranger so he/she can dualwield or give a cleric 1 level of fighter so you gain all the proficiencies.
And in RPG's like BG2 i always do the same quests in the game (all of them ) but why can't Nalia say to me that if i decide to go after Firkraag, that she will get some other group to help here. That way your more tempted to restart and then help Nalia.
Another good BG2 example is why do the shadowthieves ask for the help of my Paladin with M'vaer.
And finally i would like some more rollplaying by allignment. By doing a something good with an evil character you get an experince penaly, and the other way around. And this penalty can be so big that the reward just isnt worth it. That way you are forced into rollplaying. Also NPC's should have a better will of their own. WHen i have 20reputation, and i start killing inocents, Minsc just hacks away untill i drop to low, and then he says he will leave.
This is just a brainstorm of some things, maybe I will come up with more later.
I do not have the touch, nor do I have the power.
well, being a fromer console gamer, and now being mainly a PC gamer, I have spent a lot of time on fairly linear console RPGs, and there tends to be one thing that defacates over the vast majority of PC RPGs (other than original systems of magic etc) and that is the overall plot. I mean, I've played a fair few good games on the PC and, while I'll admit that a non-linear structure doesn't help, I could summarise most of the main plots on the back of my hand.
example:
BG - mysterious bloke kills your dad. evil bloke agitating region. evil bloke involved in evil stuff. find out you're son of ex-god (evil). so is evil bloke, who is also mysterious bloke. he wants war. you kill him.
I'll admit that PS:T ruled and that BG2 at least had some decent subplots (although the main one was just as flimsy) but the driving force of these stories seems to be levelling up and getting shinier swords. where's the betrayal, murder, rivalry, corruption, exploitation, megalomania, emotion, melodrama, adrenaline, big shiny mechs or serious mental illness?
I dunno, I don't usually mind if the game's good, but I miss wanting to get to the next town and see how the plot develops, not just who'll give me more cash to save little jimmy from the well.
example:
BG - mysterious bloke kills your dad. evil bloke agitating region. evil bloke involved in evil stuff. find out you're son of ex-god (evil). so is evil bloke, who is also mysterious bloke. he wants war. you kill him.
I'll admit that PS:T ruled and that BG2 at least had some decent subplots (although the main one was just as flimsy) but the driving force of these stories seems to be levelling up and getting shinier swords. where's the betrayal, murder, rivalry, corruption, exploitation, megalomania, emotion, melodrama, adrenaline, big shiny mechs or serious mental illness?
I dunno, I don't usually mind if the game's good, but I miss wanting to get to the next town and see how the plot develops, not just who'll give me more cash to save little jimmy from the well.
Here where the flattering and mendacious swarm
Of lying epitaths their secrets keep,
At last incapable of further harm
The lewd forefathers of the village sleep.
Of lying epitaths their secrets keep,
At last incapable of further harm
The lewd forefathers of the village sleep.
- CannibalBob
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2003 7:17 pm
- Location: Canada
- Contact:
I played all the major RPGs, like PS:T, IWD, BG, Morrowind, etc.
What I liked about Morrowind was that the game was really really long, and extremely non-linear. What I liked about PS:T was that the characters were really cool and had personalities, and also that the story was really weird.
BG was a mix, good story but had some good fighting.
I'd like to see an RPG where you can do things any way you want, and still win the game. I'd like to see a lot of different classes, and that the gameplay of each class is very different, so when you replay the game, it is very different.
I'dlike to see huge interactivity with other characters, and also with the world. I'd like to see big wars or fights that you get involved in. I'd like to see lots of different types of items and monsters.
What I liked about Morrowind was that the game was really really long, and extremely non-linear. What I liked about PS:T was that the characters were really cool and had personalities, and also that the story was really weird.
BG was a mix, good story but had some good fighting.
I'd like to see an RPG where you can do things any way you want, and still win the game. I'd like to see a lot of different classes, and that the gameplay of each class is very different, so when you replay the game, it is very different.
I'dlike to see huge interactivity with other characters, and also with the world. I'd like to see big wars or fights that you get involved in. I'd like to see lots of different types of items and monsters.
AMD Athlon XP 2000+, Geforce 4 MX440-P, 768 DDR 333MHZ RAM, SoundBlaster Live! 5.1, SBS 560, WingMan Force 3D, Cordless Trackman Wheel, 19" MultiSync 97F, LG CD-RW/DVD-ROM (32x12x8), SeaGate ST340810A 40GB HD, 101 KB, & no consoles.
I'd like to see another RPG with the openess of Morrowind, but with a bit more character depth and a few random quests thrown in. I'd also like to see a lot of Morrowind's aspects: skill-based classes and leveling, diverse magic system, etc.
There's nothing a little poison couldn't cure...
What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, ... to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security.
What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, ... to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security.
- Luis Antonio
- Posts: 9103
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- Location: In the home of the demoted.
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I'd like to see some more complex plots, with lots of ways to acomplish according to your character class.
And I'd like to see an RPG where good is not so much shown as the better way to eradicate the game. Baldur's Gate always been to me an excelent road to goodnes - if you where evil a lot of extra encounters with flaming fist and stuff will come by and you'll get fried. Why not the red mages, or the shadow thieves, or the iron throne mercenaries hunt the goodies party?
And most important, I think. SoA is better to play, NWN opens a magnificient path to multiplayer, but none of them games have been so datailed on little details of sound and history as BG1 and in ways of the history roll in Fallout 2, where everything you did affected you until the end, with carma and stuff.
And I'd like to see an RPG where good is not so much shown as the better way to eradicate the game. Baldur's Gate always been to me an excelent road to goodnes - if you where evil a lot of extra encounters with flaming fist and stuff will come by and you'll get fried. Why not the red mages, or the shadow thieves, or the iron throne mercenaries hunt the goodies party?
And most important, I think. SoA is better to play, NWN opens a magnificient path to multiplayer, but none of them games have been so datailed on little details of sound and history as BG1 and in ways of the history roll in Fallout 2, where everything you did affected you until the end, with carma and stuff.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
I guess I simply want to see more roleplaying. Period. Meaning that I can create a character and develop it according to the idea I had for it from the start without the game interfering. The first Fallout was a standout in that regard, but it still wasn't halfway there. Also, it would be nice to have realism despite a "fantastic" setting. Not having the game throw 5000 badguys in your face when you got tougher. Having (old rpg gripe coming up) missile weapons actually doing real-world damage. Not being able to sleep in your armour. There is a gazillion things that would make a game tougher without the bog standard sollutions.
And of course getting a break from the fantasy cliches. Searching for the ultimate doodad stolen by the Lord of Darkness. Useless Elven mages who keel over if the wind changes direction. Moronic fighters and walking medical kits called Clerics. A change of scenery.
What about a roleplaying game based on the world of the Three Musketeers, the Illiad or Sherlock Holmes?
And of course getting a break from the fantasy cliches. Searching for the ultimate doodad stolen by the Lord of Darkness. Useless Elven mages who keel over if the wind changes direction. Moronic fighters and walking medical kits called Clerics. A change of scenery.
What about a roleplaying game based on the world of the Three Musketeers, the Illiad or Sherlock Holmes?
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
Support bacteria, they're the only culture some people have!
Support bacteria, they're the only culture some people have!
So, something like Lionheart?
Personally, I'd like something that focus's, as Luis suggested, more on cause and effects. It would give the world a more realistic feel, and thus more enjoyable, in my opinion.
The nit pick rules aren't really what makes or breaks a game. Things like food to eat, and sleeping with out armour, while fine in theory, would add a certain level of tedium that all but the most hard core of gamers would not appreciate.
If anything, many rules need to be simplified, and a return to basics. Not so much a change of scenery (as I happen to think that RPG's work best in a fantasy setting), but possibly a move away from the Forgotten Realms, and maybe a few more unique locales.
Personally, I'd like something that focus's, as Luis suggested, more on cause and effects. It would give the world a more realistic feel, and thus more enjoyable, in my opinion.
The nit pick rules aren't really what makes or breaks a game. Things like food to eat, and sleeping with out armour, while fine in theory, would add a certain level of tedium that all but the most hard core of gamers would not appreciate.
If anything, many rules need to be simplified, and a return to basics. Not so much a change of scenery (as I happen to think that RPG's work best in a fantasy setting), but possibly a move away from the Forgotten Realms, and maybe a few more unique locales.
- Dorian_ertymexx
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2004 5:23 pm
- Location: Stockholm, Sweden
- Contact:
Ahm, Sojourner, try Gothic. You pretty much described it head-on.
IMHO, dear Stilgar, you miss the point. The more choices you make in a character (such as class, alignment etc), the less freedom you get. Morrowind and Gothic rule because they either lack class totally, or the class-system is non-obtrusive. Though I like BG, I couldn't stand BG2 or NWN. I am a table-top RGP-er, and a teacher. I believe that anyone can learn anything (though granted not with the same ease). Morrowind and Gothic grants almost total freedom.
In Gothic, you don't even get to create a character. You get a bum and make him into a hero any way you like. No restrictions, no demands, no limitations. You can join factions and behave as a nice gentleman or as a total crook.
One HUGE difference between Gothic (and partially Morrowind) form the D&D-games is how NPC's react. I loathe the conversation-style that I found in NWN, for example. Everyone talked like the snotty bimbos from "Buffy" rather than mature people. Except that silly elf-boss with the "please-cut-off-my-boobs" piece of armor. She started the game with telling you how grand a character you are, the best student ever and all, just so that you can get beaten to a pulp by a common thug fifteen minutes later. Cheesus! Rather she'd said nothing, and it'd make some sense, right?
To be more direct: What I look for in a RPG-style computer game is freedom, a credible and OPEN style of character development (preferrably not only classless but indeed levelless as well), credible NPC's that behave like real people, and a chance to learn to do actions of all kinds. The chance to forge weapons in Gothic and to make your own enchantments in Morrowind are wonderful. NPC's should change their actions during the day. In Gothic, people sleep, eat, work etc. In Morrowind, people cover their eyes when there is a sandstorm, or scratch their heads when they are bored. It is dead weird to see a character stand on the same place day and night, as if he/she was a yoga-guru in training.
And the less obvious destiny-packing at the start of the game (or, preferrably, at all) the better. Gothic I is the best at this. You start off with nothing and end up a real hero. In BG2, you KNOW you will do a lot of Grand Stuff, and thus the game must compensate with constantly more grand quests. I am not fond of jumping between dimensions more often than I go by a buss, I see that as a great flaw in a game. If you can't hold the quests in one world, then that game is too restrictive. Gothic and Morrowind manage to keep all quests within one dimension/world. You get a less bombastic feeling, and thus get more freedom to become a REAL hero. Someone who has the choice to do what is right, or the choice not to. Being told at the start of every game how grand a destiny you have sort of kills of the anticipation of where the game will lead you. You know from frame 1 that you will kill off the Big Evil, yadayadayada.
Another point is to restrict the number of monsters/creatures. A good story requires a minimun of new monsters/races/breeds and demons to keep the interest. In my experience, the more monsters, the less thought has been given to the plots. In this respect too, Gothic rules.
Well, enough ranting. You get the picture, methinks.
IMHO, dear Stilgar, you miss the point. The more choices you make in a character (such as class, alignment etc), the less freedom you get. Morrowind and Gothic rule because they either lack class totally, or the class-system is non-obtrusive. Though I like BG, I couldn't stand BG2 or NWN. I am a table-top RGP-er, and a teacher. I believe that anyone can learn anything (though granted not with the same ease). Morrowind and Gothic grants almost total freedom.
In Gothic, you don't even get to create a character. You get a bum and make him into a hero any way you like. No restrictions, no demands, no limitations. You can join factions and behave as a nice gentleman or as a total crook.
One HUGE difference between Gothic (and partially Morrowind) form the D&D-games is how NPC's react. I loathe the conversation-style that I found in NWN, for example. Everyone talked like the snotty bimbos from "Buffy" rather than mature people. Except that silly elf-boss with the "please-cut-off-my-boobs" piece of armor. She started the game with telling you how grand a character you are, the best student ever and all, just so that you can get beaten to a pulp by a common thug fifteen minutes later. Cheesus! Rather she'd said nothing, and it'd make some sense, right?
To be more direct: What I look for in a RPG-style computer game is freedom, a credible and OPEN style of character development (preferrably not only classless but indeed levelless as well), credible NPC's that behave like real people, and a chance to learn to do actions of all kinds. The chance to forge weapons in Gothic and to make your own enchantments in Morrowind are wonderful. NPC's should change their actions during the day. In Gothic, people sleep, eat, work etc. In Morrowind, people cover their eyes when there is a sandstorm, or scratch their heads when they are bored. It is dead weird to see a character stand on the same place day and night, as if he/she was a yoga-guru in training.
And the less obvious destiny-packing at the start of the game (or, preferrably, at all) the better. Gothic I is the best at this. You start off with nothing and end up a real hero. In BG2, you KNOW you will do a lot of Grand Stuff, and thus the game must compensate with constantly more grand quests. I am not fond of jumping between dimensions more often than I go by a buss, I see that as a great flaw in a game. If you can't hold the quests in one world, then that game is too restrictive. Gothic and Morrowind manage to keep all quests within one dimension/world. You get a less bombastic feeling, and thus get more freedom to become a REAL hero. Someone who has the choice to do what is right, or the choice not to. Being told at the start of every game how grand a destiny you have sort of kills of the anticipation of where the game will lead you. You know from frame 1 that you will kill off the Big Evil, yadayadayada.
Another point is to restrict the number of monsters/creatures. A good story requires a minimun of new monsters/races/breeds and demons to keep the interest. In my experience, the more monsters, the less thought has been given to the plots. In this respect too, Gothic rules.
Well, enough ranting. You get the picture, methinks.
- fable
- Posts: 30676
- Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:00 pm
- Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
- Contact:
I'd like to see the following in forthcoming RPGs:
A more genuinely interactive system of dialog. As it is now, dialog trees are for the most part condescendingly black or white, KotoR being the most notable recent example. The "choices" exist only to provide a trigger for alignment flags: 1) I will get those flowers for you, little yellow pixie. 2) Die now, stupid pixie vermin! -That kind of thing. I'd like to see more of the path choices that are present in the Fallout/Arcanum titles and the Thieves Guild/Bodhi example of BG2, as well as dialog that moves you into learning different skill sets, or into joining different guilds and social orders.
It might be nice to see emotion's effect, too, in dialog trees. One of the few things Lionheart did well was displaying a symbol alongside a multiple choice dialog option that reflected the influence of a skill your PC knew. But that doesn't include a method of gauging the NPC's emotions, and for that, we probably need to instititue a system similar to that Chris Crawford proposed a decade-and-a-half ago: mixed dialog, with symbols revealing the NPC's shifting mood towards you, and their needs. A merchant NPC who was emotionally neutral and "needed" weaponry when you approached him would presumably be eyeing your axe as a nice addition to his shop or private collection, etc.
And why should questgivers and merchants stop having interesting dialog after you've spoken to them a couple of times? It makes more sense if NPCs that are unimportant to your quests simply don't have dialog, while those who do offer intriguing bits of information on a semi-regular basis. A local gossiping merchant might, for example, twig you to the presence of quests he or she has heard about in the general area, after you've succeeded with one or two.
More subtle quest-giving. "Hi! You're that farmer from the backwater who will solve all our problems after taking on 33 quests, but we don't know anything about you, right? How about killing 125 orcs so I can have back my mother's long-lost Amulet of Rapping? I could have told any number of well-known people about this, but I remained silent over the years just to pass this quest along to you."
Yeah, right. I think Lionheart had the worst all-time quest I've seen along these lines: in an alternate world Barcelona, you encounter Niccolo Macchiavelli. He informs you, a nobody, that he's working his way up the political totem poll in Spain so that he can achieve his secret ambition of freeing his beloved Milan from Spanish captivity. (Yes, he tells you, a stranger, this in confidence.) Then he offers you the job of bodyguard. And to top it off, there are no PC attribute/skill checks. My character had almost no constitution or strength, and being a newbie, no armor or weaponry. The avatar must have looked like a starving ferret: the perfect bodyguard.
This one's fairly simple, really. It only needs two things. First, quests should be mentioned for the most part in passing, with a symbol that indicates when one has appeared and needs checking in your quest log. Second, some kind of attribute/skill/guild/whatever needs to be employed. So what if your character doesn't get all the quests in any given game? They can play a second time, or a third. After all, you've provided enough quests to keep any player overwhelmed at their sheer number and imaginative display of talent--right?
More realistic economics. If the main city's under siege, as was the case in both IWD games, then it stands to reason they should have very few supplies. Instead, they had plenty. The contents of merchants should reflect the safety of the roads fostering travel, and the ability of farmers, who invariably lie outside the main gates, to provide food. If you assist in lifting a land siege, land routes should reopen, and you might even encounter merchants on your travels. (Perhaps they'd pay for escort, too, if you don't look too scruffy.) If you assist in lifting a sea embargo, ships should begin arriving with exotic fare from overseas. And the value of goods ought to change to reflect supply and demand on a limited scale. Hell, why shouldn't a city armorer not offer to make you their main supplier, if you've provided 20 sets of chainmail in the last year?
More interactive environments. The best in this regard were the Ultima VII games, and their pair of spinoffs. You could actually gather the ingredients to make third level products--meaning that you harvested/bought first level raw materials to make second level sections, then combined several second level sections into a finished product. If there were clues provided, they were offered subtly, in libraries or occasional NPC comments, spread out over the continent. And there were many things you could gather or interact with. Divine Divinity has some of this, as well, but it's only the second title I've seen in nearly a decade which furnished this degree of attention to the environment.
Don't underestimate our collective playing intelligence. Give us puzzles that involve something more than the silly and inappropriate Towers of Hanoi in KotoR, the random-solved pathways in IWD2, or the silly riddles in the bridge crossing of BG2. In this regard, Betrayal at Krondor was the best yet seen. No puzzle was a quest breaker, but all of them really taxed your ingenuity.
Better writing. If we're given party members, make them genuinely interesting, with extra bits of randomly intruded dialog and their own quests, like BG2, rather than the generally dull dogs of NWN. Like the original Jagged Alliance and BG2, make alignment and "inner states" important enough to cause party NPCs to argue and leave, or attempt to kill one anothe. And like JA, and very occasionally BG2, let your party NPCs interrupt your party selections for activities and briefly usurp your authority to make their own quirky decisions that impact events.
In addition, I'd like to see plots where you aren't some nobody with a grand lineage, and quests that are more than FedX or "kill 5000 orcs and bring me the Golden Trinket."
Imaginative settings. I was tired of the Tolkien Thing long before every two-bit author and publisher thought it was the only method of selling a book or game. If you're a game developer in Russia, write an RPG that arises out of the Kievan Rus mythos which you learned about all through your youth. From Scandanavia? How about setting your RPG in an alternate world Skane, or the northern woodlands of Finland? Use the Kalevala, or the Norse mythos in elaborate detail. Avoid putting in place the same old races, monsters, spell system, etc, just under other names.
One of the most brilliant RPG adaptations was that of Microprose's Darklands. Based on Medieval Germany, it turned witches, demons, kobolds, dragons and Templar knights--all evil or nearly, according to folk tales--into your enemies. It substituted an elaborate alchemy system for normal magic, and included ingredients and recipes named after famous alchemists of the early Renaissance. A vast network of saints, who could be prayed to for brief, specific advantages, replaced the cleric, and character development was actually based on giving your 4 PCs each an entire history of training/background tradeoffs: a PC who spent 5 years becoming a sergeant-at-arms might have many skill points to spend on various weapons specializations, but they'd probably lose a bit of charisma and wouldn't have many skill points for intellectual pursuits, etc.
That's my say. Want to bet none of this occurs?
A more genuinely interactive system of dialog. As it is now, dialog trees are for the most part condescendingly black or white, KotoR being the most notable recent example. The "choices" exist only to provide a trigger for alignment flags: 1) I will get those flowers for you, little yellow pixie. 2) Die now, stupid pixie vermin! -That kind of thing. I'd like to see more of the path choices that are present in the Fallout/Arcanum titles and the Thieves Guild/Bodhi example of BG2, as well as dialog that moves you into learning different skill sets, or into joining different guilds and social orders.
It might be nice to see emotion's effect, too, in dialog trees. One of the few things Lionheart did well was displaying a symbol alongside a multiple choice dialog option that reflected the influence of a skill your PC knew. But that doesn't include a method of gauging the NPC's emotions, and for that, we probably need to instititue a system similar to that Chris Crawford proposed a decade-and-a-half ago: mixed dialog, with symbols revealing the NPC's shifting mood towards you, and their needs. A merchant NPC who was emotionally neutral and "needed" weaponry when you approached him would presumably be eyeing your axe as a nice addition to his shop or private collection, etc.
And why should questgivers and merchants stop having interesting dialog after you've spoken to them a couple of times? It makes more sense if NPCs that are unimportant to your quests simply don't have dialog, while those who do offer intriguing bits of information on a semi-regular basis. A local gossiping merchant might, for example, twig you to the presence of quests he or she has heard about in the general area, after you've succeeded with one or two.
More subtle quest-giving. "Hi! You're that farmer from the backwater who will solve all our problems after taking on 33 quests, but we don't know anything about you, right? How about killing 125 orcs so I can have back my mother's long-lost Amulet of Rapping? I could have told any number of well-known people about this, but I remained silent over the years just to pass this quest along to you."
Yeah, right. I think Lionheart had the worst all-time quest I've seen along these lines: in an alternate world Barcelona, you encounter Niccolo Macchiavelli. He informs you, a nobody, that he's working his way up the political totem poll in Spain so that he can achieve his secret ambition of freeing his beloved Milan from Spanish captivity. (Yes, he tells you, a stranger, this in confidence.) Then he offers you the job of bodyguard. And to top it off, there are no PC attribute/skill checks. My character had almost no constitution or strength, and being a newbie, no armor or weaponry. The avatar must have looked like a starving ferret: the perfect bodyguard.
This one's fairly simple, really. It only needs two things. First, quests should be mentioned for the most part in passing, with a symbol that indicates when one has appeared and needs checking in your quest log. Second, some kind of attribute/skill/guild/whatever needs to be employed. So what if your character doesn't get all the quests in any given game? They can play a second time, or a third. After all, you've provided enough quests to keep any player overwhelmed at their sheer number and imaginative display of talent--right?
More realistic economics. If the main city's under siege, as was the case in both IWD games, then it stands to reason they should have very few supplies. Instead, they had plenty. The contents of merchants should reflect the safety of the roads fostering travel, and the ability of farmers, who invariably lie outside the main gates, to provide food. If you assist in lifting a land siege, land routes should reopen, and you might even encounter merchants on your travels. (Perhaps they'd pay for escort, too, if you don't look too scruffy.) If you assist in lifting a sea embargo, ships should begin arriving with exotic fare from overseas. And the value of goods ought to change to reflect supply and demand on a limited scale. Hell, why shouldn't a city armorer not offer to make you their main supplier, if you've provided 20 sets of chainmail in the last year?
More interactive environments. The best in this regard were the Ultima VII games, and their pair of spinoffs. You could actually gather the ingredients to make third level products--meaning that you harvested/bought first level raw materials to make second level sections, then combined several second level sections into a finished product. If there were clues provided, they were offered subtly, in libraries or occasional NPC comments, spread out over the continent. And there were many things you could gather or interact with. Divine Divinity has some of this, as well, but it's only the second title I've seen in nearly a decade which furnished this degree of attention to the environment.
Don't underestimate our collective playing intelligence. Give us puzzles that involve something more than the silly and inappropriate Towers of Hanoi in KotoR, the random-solved pathways in IWD2, or the silly riddles in the bridge crossing of BG2. In this regard, Betrayal at Krondor was the best yet seen. No puzzle was a quest breaker, but all of them really taxed your ingenuity.
Better writing. If we're given party members, make them genuinely interesting, with extra bits of randomly intruded dialog and their own quests, like BG2, rather than the generally dull dogs of NWN. Like the original Jagged Alliance and BG2, make alignment and "inner states" important enough to cause party NPCs to argue and leave, or attempt to kill one anothe. And like JA, and very occasionally BG2, let your party NPCs interrupt your party selections for activities and briefly usurp your authority to make their own quirky decisions that impact events.
In addition, I'd like to see plots where you aren't some nobody with a grand lineage, and quests that are more than FedX or "kill 5000 orcs and bring me the Golden Trinket."
Imaginative settings. I was tired of the Tolkien Thing long before every two-bit author and publisher thought it was the only method of selling a book or game. If you're a game developer in Russia, write an RPG that arises out of the Kievan Rus mythos which you learned about all through your youth. From Scandanavia? How about setting your RPG in an alternate world Skane, or the northern woodlands of Finland? Use the Kalevala, or the Norse mythos in elaborate detail. Avoid putting in place the same old races, monsters, spell system, etc, just under other names.
One of the most brilliant RPG adaptations was that of Microprose's Darklands. Based on Medieval Germany, it turned witches, demons, kobolds, dragons and Templar knights--all evil or nearly, according to folk tales--into your enemies. It substituted an elaborate alchemy system for normal magic, and included ingredients and recipes named after famous alchemists of the early Renaissance. A vast network of saints, who could be prayed to for brief, specific advantages, replaced the cleric, and character development was actually based on giving your 4 PCs each an entire history of training/background tradeoffs: a PC who spent 5 years becoming a sergeant-at-arms might have many skill points to spend on various weapons specializations, but they'd probably lose a bit of charisma and wouldn't have many skill points for intellectual pursuits, etc.
That's my say. Want to bet none of this occurs?
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
there's another thing that very many RPGs suffer from, especially the big comercial fantasy titles.
horrible horrible bloody obvious signposted destiny bollocks.
reading around the subject of RPG design, the same rule was mentioned time and again. is there an (n*1000) year-old prophecy? a guardian dude that will apparently turn up, oh, any day now? legendary saviours to be reincarnated for the express purpose of opening cans of whoop-ass and saving the world?
and, hey, would that person be, for example, you?
that is why I almost bit through my tongue when the bloody Nerevarerevarine popped up in conversation in the otherwise rather fun morrowind.
I mean WHY? it seems that any bloody amateur with a sword, a humble or generally unimportant past and possibly a strange birthmark cannot fail to be a horribly predictable saviour of the world.
just stop it. it's not big and it's not clever.
oh, and D&D doth not an automatically good game make. they're not even pretending to be making an effort, the sods.
horrible horrible bloody obvious signposted destiny bollocks.
reading around the subject of RPG design, the same rule was mentioned time and again. is there an (n*1000) year-old prophecy? a guardian dude that will apparently turn up, oh, any day now? legendary saviours to be reincarnated for the express purpose of opening cans of whoop-ass and saving the world?
and, hey, would that person be, for example, you?
that is why I almost bit through my tongue when the bloody Nerevarerevarine popped up in conversation in the otherwise rather fun morrowind.
I mean WHY? it seems that any bloody amateur with a sword, a humble or generally unimportant past and possibly a strange birthmark cannot fail to be a horribly predictable saviour of the world.
just stop it. it's not big and it's not clever.
oh, and D&D doth not an automatically good game make. they're not even pretending to be making an effort, the sods.
Here where the flattering and mendacious swarm
Of lying epitaths their secrets keep,
At last incapable of further harm
The lewd forefathers of the village sleep.
Of lying epitaths their secrets keep,
At last incapable of further harm
The lewd forefathers of the village sleep.
- Dorian_ertymexx
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My point exactly. Gothic 1 rules at this. But even Gothic 2 gets a bit bombastic, as does Morrowind. But they are still better than all D&D-games.
Destiny is just a bad excuse for not inventing intrigue reasons for a PC to get along the main storyline.
Here's a question... Do we NEED a main storyline? Wouldn't Morrowind, for example, be just as great a game without the whole reincarnation-stuff? Perhaps even better? Just a whole big world full of quests big and small, down-to-earth or bombastic, intrigue-based, violent or mystical all depending on style and wish? I am playing a wizard now, and I completely ignore the main quest. Don't like the destiny-schtick either.
Destiny is just a bad excuse for not inventing intrigue reasons for a PC to get along the main storyline.
Here's a question... Do we NEED a main storyline? Wouldn't Morrowind, for example, be just as great a game without the whole reincarnation-stuff? Perhaps even better? Just a whole big world full of quests big and small, down-to-earth or bombastic, intrigue-based, violent or mystical all depending on style and wish? I am playing a wizard now, and I completely ignore the main quest. Don't like the destiny-schtick either.
- fable
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Do we NEED a main storyline? Wouldn't Morrowind, for example, be just as great a game without the whole reincarnation-stuff?
IMO, yes. I want plenty of freedom to find non-linear activities and quests, but I also want a storyline that unobtrusively points me in a certain direction. I want the sense that I'm actually accomplishing a series of goals (beyond those of getting the next nice piece of equipment, etc). If I didn't, I'd go play an MMORPG.
There have been games that do this quite well. Betrayal at Krondor and King of Dragon Pass both manage a very goal-oriented story that still doesn't come across as hackneyed, for example.
IMO, yes. I want plenty of freedom to find non-linear activities and quests, but I also want a storyline that unobtrusively points me in a certain direction. I want the sense that I'm actually accomplishing a series of goals (beyond those of getting the next nice piece of equipment, etc). If I didn't, I'd go play an MMORPG.
There have been games that do this quite well. Betrayal at Krondor and King of Dragon Pass both manage a very goal-oriented story that still doesn't come across as hackneyed, for example.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
As has already been mentioned, a non cliche-ish plot would do wonders for any game. Take Torment for example. No other game made by Black Isle (except the Fallout series) had as much of a hold on me when I was playing as it did. Sure there's plenty of pointing and to a degree, linearity. But it had a story that can be entrancing and epic. That's all I would like more of in future RPG's. A story that could be made into a book or film and has unparalleled originality.
"It's not whether you get knocked down, it's if you get back up."
- Dorian_ertymexx
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I don't understand why all main-plots must involve divinities and mega-powers. What's wrong with a moderately powerfull but DANG influential bad-guy? Someone with a lot of power, like a king or high-merchant. No gods, no, demons... Just one man's greed, delusion of grandeur, or even better - fanatic belief that what he does is right (and who knows, it just MIGHT be right as well). More open-endedness and choice is more fun, less predictable and more interesting for those of us who haven't forgotten the concepts of philosophy, morality and headache over tough choices. No pure good, no pure evil, only differences in world-view. I think that many games (and their designers) seem to back away from such sensitive concepts. Better to let the kids go bashing without a second thought on their victims.
Do I sound old right now?!?
Allow more choice to the games and their plots.
If nothing else, it is a bit catharsic to chose the red lightsaber from time to time, and end the game with the Dark Side. ;>
Do I sound old right now?!?
Allow more choice to the games and their plots.
If nothing else, it is a bit catharsic to chose the red lightsaber from time to time, and end the game with the Dark Side. ;>
- fable
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I don't understand why all main-plots must involve divinities and mega-powers. What's wrong with a moderately powerfull but DANG influential bad-guy?
Good one. That's actually what you are (at the end of Betrayal at Krondor. The relatively new (and unknown) Anito is similar in that respect, too.
The problem is that many people read/play fantasy with the tacit understanding that they'd like to escape from their lives and become someone "special," with a "destiny" that singles them out despite the billions of other people who are equally special and have a lot less going their way. It's a very youthful, almost infantile wish fulfillment, entirely ego-centered. Planescape: Torment is one of the few games that I've played which makes this work, by twisting the idea is something dark and ironic: sure, you're special, but only by dint of becoming a murderer. King of Dragon Pass manages it by transferring the "specialness" to your tribe, whom you lead behind the scenes, rather than you, personally.
Good one. That's actually what you are (at the end of Betrayal at Krondor. The relatively new (and unknown) Anito is similar in that respect, too.
The problem is that many people read/play fantasy with the tacit understanding that they'd like to escape from their lives and become someone "special," with a "destiny" that singles them out despite the billions of other people who are equally special and have a lot less going their way. It's a very youthful, almost infantile wish fulfillment, entirely ego-centered. Planescape: Torment is one of the few games that I've played which makes this work, by twisting the idea is something dark and ironic: sure, you're special, but only by dint of becoming a murderer. King of Dragon Pass manages it by transferring the "specialness" to your tribe, whom you lead behind the scenes, rather than you, personally.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
- Dorian_ertymexx
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Yes... But alas, what's wrong with the Babylon 5-esque kind of intrigue? Oh yeah, the vorlons are the good guys, and the shadows are pure evil. Really. They are. Promise.
Well, I guess that the mature kind of plots will be rare as long as there are few mature players making demands of the game-designers. It is easier to sell flashy graphics and yet another pseudo-naked-boobed game with Destiny and Deathgods than a good intrigue. As someone allready pointed out above, I believe.
Well, I guess that the mature kind of plots will be rare as long as there are few mature players making demands of the game-designers. It is easier to sell flashy graphics and yet another pseudo-naked-boobed game with Destiny and Deathgods than a good intrigue. As someone allready pointed out above, I believe.
- fable
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Well, I guess that the mature kind of plots will be rare as long as there are few mature players making demands of the game-designers.
It's a matter of what they *believe* sells. BaK sold phenomenally well, yet it had the most complex puzzles yet seen in an RPG. Ultima VII sold extremely well, yet it had a very interactive universe with few clues--you had to figure out what combinations of objects did things, and experiment with potions to find out their effects. Complexity worked, because it wasn't complexity for its own sake, but part of the evening's entertainment.
It's a matter of what they *believe* sells. BaK sold phenomenally well, yet it had the most complex puzzles yet seen in an RPG. Ultima VII sold extremely well, yet it had a very interactive universe with few clues--you had to figure out what combinations of objects did things, and experiment with potions to find out their effects. Complexity worked, because it wasn't complexity for its own sake, but part of the evening's entertainment.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.