Restrictions (possible SPOILERS)

Iyke · Post by **Iyke** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 2:23 pm

I recently finished a heavily modded game BG2+ ToB. When I play again, I want to impose some restrictions to make the game more challenging and fun.

The first thing im going to do is Rest every night, as far as the plot allows. This isnt really a restriction, but it seems to be good RP to want to rest each night. In previous games I would always delay resting as much as possible, until spellbooks are almost empty, or fatigue sets in.

Inventory:
One plan is to go without Bags of Holding completely. Scroll cases would still be allowed, but getting rid of the bags seems a good way to restrict some *very* tempting exploits, aswell as indirectly limiting the abundance of available cash.

No inventory screen during battle (I loved the 'Unpause' in BG1). No more sifting through a bottomless bag of holding for that non-magical sword to hit a protected mage. No more swapping in the Ring of Fire Protection, the instant before the fireball hits me.

Stealing:
Plundering things from merchants is fun at first, but it can kill off some of the challenge later. I was thinking of limiting shoplifting to scrolls *only*. Certainly no mace+2s. Pickpocketing is OK (very hard to leave Ribald's shop without that ring), but no save/loads allowed. To guarantee success costs usually 3-4 potions of thievery, because i dont put any points in the thieving skill.

Items:
Cloak of Cheese is out. I usually keep it in Bag of Holding and equip only seldomly. Next game I'll just leave it in the Sahaugin City. All loots from the mods I will either use or leave behind, ie NO SELLING that stuff. Item upgrade mod is fun, but certain obvious ones are banned. (The scimitar is way overpowered, improved kithix also, and others). Even in my last game, I did without Boots of Speed. The game is better without those.

Scrolls:
A nice rule here bans projects and simuls from using scrolls for spells that they could not have memorised. If mage isnt levelled-up enough to memorise Time Stop, then her Project is not allowed to use a Time Stop scroll. Once mage hits level 18, she is free to memorise any level 9 spell, and the Project is free to use Time Stop scroll.
Mage will have to reach appropriate level for her Simuls to *have memorised* black blade of disaster, before her simuls are allowed to use that scroll from quick item slot.

Smite:
I loved this ability, and although i didnt find it cheesy, it was maybe too overpowered for me. Example fight: the tough party that spawns as you open the final seal in Watcher's Keep. No reloads for me there, because the 2 nastiest enemies were smited off the screen at the very start. This still left a lot to do, but relatively little danger in doing it. GWAs need a limit of 2 per day. I would say 1 per day, but i think you need 2 at the last fight in ToB

Wearing Protection Items:
There is a mod that allows you to equip various items together (rings / amulets of protection etc) which you couldnt in the Vanilla game. I regret using that mod- the game was BETTER when you had to think more carefully about which to equip. When Jaheira breezed to -18AC or so, I realised this mod had to go for the next game.

Ranged Weapons:
My last game was a full party of 6, and no ranged weapons allowed throughout. When i got to high levels, I did use energy blades... these were amazing, but simply reminded me of why I had banned all ranged weapons. Perhaps I will reconsider this for the next game, as I wont be allowed to steal infinite bolts of biting etc. Generally I think ranged weapons are for wimps.

Carsomyr:
I think next game will be better without this sword of dispelling. After just completing the game with PC inquisitor, its already going to be really hard next time thru to fill in for the various dispells and truesights he cast so quickly. Getting rid of this sword from my game - I hope - will allow for more balanced magical battles.

Im hoping to make it more of a challenge, without increasing the frustration too much. Im very excited about the 'no bag of holding rule' (seen that on this forum somewhere i think) and I welcome the tough decisions about what to carry or not to carry, as a result.

If anyone has more suggestions for self-imposed restrictions, please post your ideas. I wont be starting new game for a little while, and when I do it will likely be my last game of BG2+ToB. I want to make it just right

Hesperus · Post by **Hesperus** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:12 pm

Seems like some fun role play restrictions, for BG to be PnP-ish. I end up restricting how many potions of healing we pick up, leaving them (and other loot) in the streets for the common folk or whatever. You end up with TONS of them from tactics (as so many well equipped baddies go after your party). It's easy to fix some of this overall issue by selectively installing components from item upgrade.

Another realistic limit is to avoid rods of resurrection, or recharging wands.

I'd have a hard time doing it, but you could stick to vanilla magic weapons, like a good old longsword +3 over Blackrazor, for example. I've used Flametongue almost exclusively in SoA with one character g/m in longswords (elvish kensai/mage multi, heh), I find it fun for characters to wield their fav weapons only.

I like to have what a character could realistically carry in their backpack (4 halberds, 2 sets of platemail, 3 2-handed swords, and 40 potions of healing yeah right

).

Avoiding reloads at all costs but having the PC die is fun as well.

Yeah, the scimitar Water's Edge is soo powerful. Total solo tool and makes Ascension Yaga-sura (and most anything else for that matter) a snap with all the poison damage... I have a HARD time passing it up, at least for Jan to use for the good old poison backstab... (things get crazy if you give it to Chloe or Sola while improved hasted for instance).

Another old way to help things "fair" is to keep the difficulty cranked up.

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:26 am

Mostly I agree with you, if you want to roleplay as much as possible, then this is the way to go (although the multiple rings, etc. I dont consider as cheese either)

But im having a sligh disagreement with one of your points:

Originally posted by Iyke
Ranged Weapons:
but simply reminded me of why I had banned all ranged weapons. Perhaps I will reconsider this for the next game, as I wont be allowed to steal infinite bolts of biting etc. Generally I think ranged weapons are for wimps.

Could you please elaborate why ranged weapons are for wimps ??

Iyke · Post by **Iyke** » Sun Mar 07, 2004 2:44 pm

Thanks for the replies so far

4 halberds ...2 sets of plate mail...three 2handed swords...
LOL yes exactly. And you should have seen my bag of holding after wiping out that 'Ritual' map. Never again.

You are right about healing potions too. In the last game i had so many of these i think i sold 100 of them for another stack of cash i had no use for. A lot of the time I avoided using healing potions (except as lifesavers in battle), and instead swapped the various regen rings around my party to let them heal up gradually after a fight. So on the one hand, i will use them more liberally next time (knowing how many are available); on the other hand i will not build up great big stacks of them, and leave some behind for the peasants.

Ribald's Ring. Many moons ago, I played the game a couple of times without reading forums or spoilers ... and i did just fine without even knowing about Ribald's ring. Since i learned about it, i steal it every time. Next game: Im not going to steal it!! OMG

Ranged Weapons:
Note this is nothing to do with Roleplaying (where ranged weapons have their place of course), but about the engine for the computer game. I have used them before, and just felt they make too much too easy. If I was going to solo the game, i probably would love them, but I like to generally have a party of six. My experience from long ago (and also from IWD) is that enemies can be taken down very quickly with people shooting arrows or bolts from way across the screen, out of harms way... like wimps. Im not saying its cheesy, but it is not to my taste. (Also, too many instances of: 'oh well, no point casting any spells here, Jan can just fire the crossbow')

Hesperus's suggestion about using just basic magic weapons might improve the Ranged Attack system for me. Too many of those uber magic (cross)bows act like MACHINE GUNS, even if they are not called that. If i found an item called 'chain gun' in BG2 I wouldnt want to touch it for the sake of my game.

When Jaheira shouts 'Fall Creature!! and feed the Earth!' it is because she is charging across the battlefield to go toe-to-toe with her enemies, not cowering out of sight somewhere loading up rocks into a sling. Anyway; to do that with any pace and accuracy, how many shots could you fire in a minute?

Water's Talon: Game is better without this. The poison never seems to end, the extra hitpoints pile on too quickly and last too long. If enough enemies used this weapon, I would too. As it stands, it seemed to me just an elaborate way to CTRL-kill selected enemy, which I dont want to do.

Rod of Resurrection: I bet there are many other players like me, who reload instantly a party member dies. Thats right, if Nalia or Jan get backstabbed or nuked to death, thats MY personal failure, and I reload and do the battle again. So ive never used the rod of resurrection even once, although strangely I always keep it in bag of holding throughout the game

Perhaps the way to go is a cross between the two ideas: If Jan or Nalia (swoon) ever get killed, I should accept that they are gone FOREVER, and neither resurrect nor reload. More I think about this, the more attractive the idea sounds, although its always easier said than done. And what if they get turned to stone then smashed into little pieces along with MY robe of vecna / ring of wizardry etc ? ........ /reload

Reloads: Someone on here recommended playing through with PC wild mage with NO reloads, just for the gaming experience. Im not up to that challenge yet (dont much like wild mage), but I really like this idea. Cutting out as many reloads as possible, and accepting fate in the spirit of this Wild Mage, will increase the STAKES of my gaming. I dont want to lose Nalia forever (sob) so that will make me play extra carefully and precisely. Cutting down on, or cutting out reloads raises the stakes, and thus the challenge. This is definately the way to go.

Difficulty Level: Setting this on INSANE makes monsters do double damage. Everything from squirrels to yaga-shura. Its just cheesy, and no doubt provokes more cheese from the player. I play on the level below which gives them a 50% bonus to damage i think.

I find I can talk about BG2 all day long, so I'll stop here before i embarrass myself. Any other comments and suggestions always gratefully recieved. Happy gaming

Squee · Post by **Squee** » Sun Mar 07, 2004 3:13 pm

You guys are nuts

Adahn · Post by **Adahn** » Sun Mar 07, 2004 4:41 pm

I agree with some of the stuff but... One thing. How are you going to make this mode happen? ^_^ I mean.... it's not like in Morrowind that you just open the editor and do whatever, and then select the plug in you want hehe. Besides, this realistic thing would be more complexe than a Mod, since you'd acctualy be restricting the player from reloading or saving when he pickpockets. What if he's not pick pocketing? o.o

nephtu · Post by **nephtu** » Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:31 pm

Whatever floats your boat!

One of the nice things about the game thing is that you can easily season to taste. Enjoy!

Numinor · Post by **Numinor** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 4:47 am

Originally posted by Adahn
I agree with some of the stuff but... One thing. How are you going to make this mode happen? ^_^ I mean.... it's not like in Morrowind that you just open the editor and do whatever, and then select the plug in you want hehe. Besides, this realistic thing would be more complexe than a Mod, since you'd acctualy be restricting the player from reloading or saving when he pickpockets. What if he's not pick pocketing? o.o

You misunderstood, they are not planning a mod with those restrictions, they want to restrict themselves in their next game.
All you need is a bit self-control

Iyke · Post by **Iyke** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:41 pm

Its the opposite of cheese. Just like the player is free to introduce any amount of cheese as they wish, they are also free to follow the path of 'anti-cheese' as much as they want.

So the bag of holding is cheesy, I'll just leave it on the floor. No mod needed for that

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 6:14 am

Originally posted by Iyke
Ranged Weapons:
Note this is nothing to do with Roleplaying (where ranged weapons have their place of course), but about the engine for the computer game. I have used them before, and just felt they make too much too easy. If I was going to solo the game, i probably would love them, but I like to generally have a party of six. My experience from long ago (and also from IWD) is that enemies can be taken down very quickly with people shooting arrows or bolts from way across the screen, out of harms way... like wimps. Im not saying its cheesy, but it is not to my taste. (Also, too many instances of: 'oh well, no point casting any spells here, Jan can just fire the crossbow')

Hesperus's suggestion about using just basic magic weapons might improve the Ranged Attack system for me. Too many of those uber magic (cross)bows act like MACHINE GUNS, even if they are not called that. If i found an item called 'chain gun' in BG2 I wouldnt want to touch it for the sake of my game.

Then you just cant control yourself

If you try to get every uber weapon in the game, with every uber ammo that’s with it, then its your fault. Ranged weapons are just useful. Most bows are not uber, and neither are most arrows. Ranged fighters are very weak against spell casters with some protections up, or against fast fighters.

I cant remember there are bows that act like machine guns. maybe the Tugan bow with extra attacks per round (that’s the tugan Bow, right??

Correct me if I’m wrong here), but that isn’t a strong bow.
Now on the other hand you got that Big metal unit. That is an example of an overpowered crossbow. But you don’t need to make/get it. Perhaps you are just to tempted to use cheese with ranged weapons (although I don’t consider many attacks per round as cheese), but they are definitely not overpowered IMO...

And yes, ranged weapons are used by the less "strong and powerful in close combat" but to go and call them wimps then because they shoot from a distance, not really.
If you go in that direction you can go and call mages wimps to, for they just shoot magic from a distance.

But its all own opinion, I don’t mean to attack you in anyway, I’m just not agreeing with ure opinion and arguments

Iyke · Post by **Iyke** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:01 pm

Thanks for the debate!

'If i try to get every uber weapon and uber ammo in the game'

Its not a case of trying. If i go into a store and theres an uber bow for sale, and one of my party has been using a lesser bow, then they are going to want to buy the upgrade. Same if I kill a monster and it drops a crossbow, which is an upgrade for Jan, then of course Jan is going to want it.

'Most bows are not uber'

Yes you are probably right. Its likely that I exaggerated here. However, a *whole party* of six equipped with 'half-decent' bows, all firing from across the screen ... is just artless. Thats not saying its cheesy.

'Big Metal Unit....'

No surprises here - I never made that, wanted it, nor wished that I had seen it. Sure sounds fun, but not the kind of fun I want from BG2 / ToB. I never even knew about it until I read spoilers and walkthroughs, which was after my 2nd full game.

'Wimps....'

I will retract the statement about wimps

(better part of valor!! better part of valor!!)

A lot of this comes down to 'seasoning to taste'. Those people who are not so strong in close combat, have the option to fire their range weapons, and its a sensible decision, not a wimpish decision. HOWEVER, they also have the option to do other things.... eg: cast Chant, cast Improved Haste on Jaheira, cast Doom on selected enemy, coif invis potion and go backstab, cast buffs if magic attack is expected ... and so on. When i took ranged weapons out of my game, I had to find these things for my party to do, instead of just 'Oh well, no point casting any spells here, Ill just shoot crossbow'. (by Uncle Spanky's thumb!)

'Mages shoot magic from a distance...'

I take your point, but I disagree that it would make mages wimps in any case. Mages in my party have a habit of 'wading in'. Not all the time, but with combinations such as protec/magic energy + point blank skull traps, or sunfires, or one of my all-time favorites
Vampyric Touch.

Nalia - Vampyric Touch: Assassin
Assassin: Death
'Vita ... Morrrrtis ... Careo!'

'Ranged Weapons are just useful.'

Indeed, I never really meant to overly criticize ranged weps. Merely saying that removing them from my game adds to the challenge in some ways, which is all im trying to do.

PS Tuigan bow+improved haste = machine gun. or am i wrong?

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:37 am

Originally posted by Iyke
Thanks for the debate!
Its not a case of trying. If i go into a store and theres an uber bow for sale, and one of my party has been using a lesser bow, then they are going to want to buy the upgrade. Same if I kill a monster and it drops a crossbow, which is an upgrade for Jan, then of course Jan is going to want it.

You already said with this:
'Most bows are not uber'
Yes you are probably right. Its likely that I exaggerated here.

So you already gave an answer for me here...

Originally posted by Iyke
However, a *whole party* of six equipped with 'half-decent' bows, all firing from across the screen ... is just artless. Thats not saying its cheesy.

Again, personal taste. Having every character with bows can either be very effective, or very weak. Facing powerful mages and fighters can be very tough with only archers.
I know that equipping every character with a ranged weapon isn’t RP'ing (you gave a good example with Jaheira here) but to give not 1 character a ranged weapon, because ranged weapon are so strong or for wimps is the total opposite.

Originally posted by Iyke

'Wimps....'

I will retract the statement about wimps

(better part of valor!! better part of valor!!)

Nice to hear that

Originally posted by Iyke
When i took ranged weapons out of my game, I had to find these things for my party to do, instead of just 'Oh well, no point casting any spells here, Ill just shoot crossbow'

Point taken, but I agree to a certain extent. Having Jan only firing his crossbow is not the wisest decision IMO. His THACO isn’t great, and neither is his damage. He does more damage with his magic then bolts. It all comes down to the player. Letting Jan firing only his crossbow instead of magic, is IMO the fault of the player, since hes to lazy then to select a magic missile.

Originally posted by Iyke
I take your point, but I disagree that it would make mages wimps in any case. Mages in my party have a habit of 'wading in'. Not all the time, but with combinations such as protec/magic energy + point blank skull traps, or sunfires, or one of my all-time favorites: Vampyric Touch.

Just like with ranged weapon users, I think using magic from a distance isn’t wimpy either. But you said that ranged weapons are for wimps (shooting from afar, out of harms way, etc). So I gave in reply that mages or clerics can be wimps for the exact same reasons: they also fight from a distance. Unless of course you let them go melee. You are taking things in your own hand then, the same as you could do with ranged weapon users. Its all in the way you handle them...

Originally posted by Iyke

PS Tuigan bow+improved haste = machine gun. or am i wrong?

Probably, but so is a fighter with IH, Belm (scimitar) or Greater W.
The same goes for mages with IH, Tensers, melfs Meteors, etc.

But we could go on and on like this forever

Its all about personal taste and how you play the game I guess.