I like to add a lot of realism to my campaigns, but the HP system makes that a little difficult. Fighter gets wonked on the head with a great-club and walks away from it, 10min later a lizard licks him and he plops over dead. Also the HP system, because you never deal with wounds, makes combat seem non-dangerous. Without further adeu, let me propose an alternative.
Upon each combat action, the attacker makes an attack roll and the defender makes a defensive roll. Attack roll is 1d20 + base attack bonus + damage, and defensive roll is 1d20 + dex bonus + armour bonus + any other modifers.
The difference between the attack roll and defensive roll determines severety of the blow. For example, if defensive roll wins, the blow is deflected, if offensive roll wins by 4 perhaps a scratch, a win by 20 may be an incapacitating wound.
Each character, human or otherwise can tolerate a certain amount of damage. For example, a human's damage set may be [ 3 scratches, 1 light wound, 1 moderate wound, 1 severe wound, 1 incapacitating wound]. And for a medium characters, the "damage increment" may be 4 or so. For every "damage increment" which an attack roll exceeds a defense roll, an increasingly more severe blow would be dealt. And if a person takes a wound which he has already received his limit in, the wound spills over to the next more severe type. For example, after 3 scratches, the next scratch is a light wound.
Each wound type would carry its own penalties, scratch may be nothing, light wound may be -1 to all rolls, moderate may be -2 to rolls, severe wound may be -3 to all rolls, and affects would be cumulative. For example, a person who has taken a light, moderate, and severe wound will have -6 to all rolls.
Larger creatures would have a larger "damage increment", like 5 or 6 for an ogre in addtition to different damage capacities. For example, a knife cut 1 cm deep on a human is more severe than it is to a dragon ( who probably won't even notice ). Thus damage capability is determined by WHAT you are, not WHO you are. Fighters who can take more combat can do this not because they can take more knives in the gullet, but because they can defend themselves, and so this should be reflected in their defensive rolls. That lets them both block blows, and make hard blows less severe.
This adds danger back to combat and realism to a game, so that if you're unarmed and attacked by a disgruntled peasant with a pitchfork while half drunk in the bar, you're ACTUALLY in danger.
The idea is incomplete and could use some addons, like perhaps people add 1/2 their base attack bonus to their defensive roll. But it really opens the doors for description of combat, danger, new feats/spells, etc.
Your thoughts?
P.S. There sure are a lot of goons on the official D&D forums.
Possible alternative to HP system
Constitution
I forgot to mention, without HP you may think constitution becomes worthless. Constitution would be used for damage recovery (healthier people bounce back easier). Each week or so, a person rolls to recover from wounds, each type of wound has a DC. For example, a scratch may have DC 5 while a severe wound may have DC 20. You roll and add 2 x ( Constitution modifier ), and if you win then the damage type is decreased by 1. For example, fighter got a knife in the stomach and has a severe wound. He rolls a 15 (not high enough), but his constitution of 16 gives him +6 to his roll. The severe wound becomes moderate and he's on the road to recovery.
Constitution is great because who care if you have the biggest meanest weapon or spell if you always walk into battle a cripple? ( No offense to crippled people
)
I forgot to mention, without HP you may think constitution becomes worthless. Constitution would be used for damage recovery (healthier people bounce back easier). Each week or so, a person rolls to recover from wounds, each type of wound has a DC. For example, a scratch may have DC 5 while a severe wound may have DC 20. You roll and add 2 x ( Constitution modifier ), and if you win then the damage type is decreased by 1. For example, fighter got a knife in the stomach and has a severe wound. He rolls a 15 (not high enough), but his constitution of 16 gives him +6 to his roll. The severe wound becomes moderate and he's on the road to recovery.
Constitution is great because who care if you have the biggest meanest weapon or spell if you always walk into battle a cripple? ( No offense to crippled people
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Rudar Dimble
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boo's daddy
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Sounds a bit complicated; I like the D&D system because it's simple.
Of course, it gives rise to some ridiculous scenarios. For "realism" the best system I've played was RuneQuest. Here, an attacker has a base chance to hit, you then determine which part of the body is hit, armour absorbs damage rather than affecting "to hit" chance, and you can be killed before you've lost all your HP because you've taken a spear in the chest.
Of course, it gives rise to some ridiculous scenarios. For "realism" the best system I've played was RuneQuest. Here, an attacker has a base chance to hit, you then determine which part of the body is hit, armour absorbs damage rather than affecting "to hit" chance, and you can be killed before you've lost all your HP because you've taken a spear in the chest.
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SwordfortheLord
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I like the idea of getting away from straight HP numbers. If you wear a helmet that gives you extra HP, it should only affect your ability to defend/absorb damage to your head, not to your arm. I was thinking about damage amounts to each body part, all of which have their unique strength/weaknesses. If you target a sword-arm, requiring more accuracy, but still hit, then you should be able to damage their sword-arm and thus affecting their ability to wield and swing their sword.
Oh, and a note on graphics and roles. I notice that BG uses generic animations. If you miss your target (Thac0), then nothing happens. They should break it down. If the number is really low, and the target was able to avoid the attack with just the dex modifier, then the animation should show the target dodging out of the way or something. If the Thac0 is just blow that, falling to the shild AC bonus, then it should show the shield being used, blocking the blow. Then you could go on to the armor, etc. That would make the rolls more descriptive instead of a generic hit/miss.
Oh, and a note on graphics and roles. I notice that BG uses generic animations. If you miss your target (Thac0), then nothing happens. They should break it down. If the number is really low, and the target was able to avoid the attack with just the dex modifier, then the animation should show the target dodging out of the way or something. If the Thac0 is just blow that, falling to the shild AC bonus, then it should show the shield being used, blocking the blow. Then you could go on to the armor, etc. That would make the rolls more descriptive instead of a generic hit/miss.
All of this can be resolved by the DM using descriptors. One way my old campaign used to do this was that the dm would roll a d6 1 = head 2 = right arm 3 = left arm 4 = torso 5 = right leg 6 = left leg. Then he'd describe the action. There was a whole section on this in the Player's Options Series for 2ed that was released right before 3ed was released. It gave modifier's and alternate rules and everything.
Really I think the best (and cheapest) solution is having a creative DM. He/she can sort of make it up on the fly giving minuses and such due to hardcore damage....... and it can all be used with the HP system.
Really I think the best (and cheapest) solution is having a creative DM. He/she can sort of make it up on the fly giving minuses and such due to hardcore damage....... and it can all be used with the HP system.
Yeah, I usually create penalties for the players when I think the situation demands it (like trying to fight waist deep in the water, or when walking on knees in a very small tunnel). For other combat effects, I use critical miss or hit to create startling results such as a person losing his blade as it gets stuck in the wall. It all depends.
But I agree about the hp thing. It's one of the things that make no sense realistically. A 20th level fighter can approach a thief and give his back to him...and it would take like 1 hundred backstabs before the fighter dies. Hehe.
Common sense says that hit points (should they be used), should not vary so much as it does. It should be like 1-50 hps by the time you go from level 1 to 20. Of course, then you'd have to change spell damage, and all that. But I think that, as a whole, having lots of hps and spells of big damage satisfies most of the players. This is particularly true in computer games using the D&D system.
But I agree about the hp thing. It's one of the things that make no sense realistically. A 20th level fighter can approach a thief and give his back to him...and it would take like 1 hundred backstabs before the fighter dies. Hehe.
Common sense says that hit points (should they be used), should not vary so much as it does. It should be like 1-50 hps by the time you go from level 1 to 20. Of course, then you'd have to change spell damage, and all that. But I think that, as a whole, having lots of hps and spells of big damage satisfies most of the players. This is particularly true in computer games using the D&D system.
Check it out! One of my earliest, and certainly, more creative threads!
Fantasy Football - Pick a Side
Fantasy Football - Pick a Side
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Rob-hin
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Keep in mind that hit points are not simply life points.
A high level fighter also has armor wich absobs some damage (but it's not called damage reduction!), he knows how to take hits better and he has a pain resistance.
It's the sum of all things that make him more capable of taking damage then low level fighter.
A high level fighter also has armor wich absobs some damage (but it's not called damage reduction!), he knows how to take hits better and he has a pain resistance.
It's the sum of all things that make him more capable of taking damage then low level fighter.
Guinness is good for you.
Gives you strength.
Gives you strength.
[QUOTE=Rob-hin]Keep in mind that hit points are not simply life points.
A high level fighter also has armor wich absobs some damage (but it's not called damage reduction!), he knows how to take hits better and he has a pain resistance.
It's the sum of all things that make him more capable of taking damage then low level fighter.[/QUOTE]
Well said Rob-hin. To many times most players (myself included) look at hp as "Life Points" The hp system takes most things into consideration. The idea is that a first level fighter dosen't know how to aviod attacks as well as a high level fighter would. He's not as tough as a high level fighter. You could have a level advancement require HUNDREDS of number changes or you could roll ye old d10!!
(I'm extreamly tired as I have been awake now for 28 hours!! if none of this makes any sense, please forgive me, I'll try to re-explain it later! lol)
l8r.
A high level fighter also has armor wich absobs some damage (but it's not called damage reduction!), he knows how to take hits better and he has a pain resistance.
It's the sum of all things that make him more capable of taking damage then low level fighter.[/QUOTE]
Well said Rob-hin. To many times most players (myself included) look at hp as "Life Points" The hp system takes most things into consideration. The idea is that a first level fighter dosen't know how to aviod attacks as well as a high level fighter would. He's not as tough as a high level fighter. You could have a level advancement require HUNDREDS of number changes or you could roll ye old d10!!
(I'm extreamly tired as I have been awake now for 28 hours!! if none of this makes any sense, please forgive me, I'll try to re-explain it later! lol)
l8r.
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DeathLich
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[QUOTE=Madric] Also the HP system, because you never deal with wounds, makes combat seem non-dangerous.[/QUOTE]
Actually the DM Guide does provide certain wounds with different consiquences. Example: You are disarmed by an orc during a battle and the spiked chain tore up your wrist pretty bad. The DM Guide states a list of possible penalties to this or almost any other injury.
Actually the DM Guide does provide certain wounds with different consiquences. Example: You are disarmed by an orc during a battle and the spiked chain tore up your wrist pretty bad. The DM Guide states a list of possible penalties to this or almost any other injury.
So I offer you respect, and it will take much for you to lose it. But if you do, if you choose to see it as weakness and seize upon your perceived advantage, well...perhaps I'll then let you talk with Guenhwyvar.
-Drizzt Do'Urden
-Drizzt Do'Urden
Sorry for not reading the whhole post but an alternate system is here: https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d ... 06a&page=3
Its a Wounds and vitality system.
Its a Wounds and vitality system.
make hp work for you
To a large extent, I agree with the original post. HP can be severely unrealistic - like a tank of gas you just need to fill up every so often. I mean, even on some short campaigns I've done, pc's would in all fairness have come away decrepit cripples, barely able to get the morning paper... What I mean is, there are little or no ways to incorporate permanent damage. For example, a character takes a hit that consumes, say, 1/2 or more of their HP. They were nearly killed by a single blow!! You don't just sleep that off!!
Enough of my rant, here's what can be done to ameliorate the problem (While sticking to the time-honored HP system):
1) Be imaginitive! Break bones, create scars, give a concussion, sever nerves... I realize it sounds graphic, and that may be some of the reason the HP system was first implemented, but for those who want realism, this is an easy fix. You can make your own table, which will, based on damage taken (maybe a % of total HP), randomly attatch a type of wound - DM of course manipulates to fit the particular battle - e.g. clubs break bones, spears puncture organs/arteries.
2) Explain healing! Once you've decided what kind of wound the character has recieved, make them take the necessary steps to fix it. Gashes need stitching, bones need a splint, etc. Also, with regard to magic (potions & spells), they can still work the same (recovering HP), but they are more detailed/realistic. A potion of greater healing might close a knife wound that would need stitches otherwise. This will make it so that you can pay little or no attention to all but the most grevious of wounds - and get back to playing!
All in all, I'm saying it doesn't take an entirely new system to enhance the damage system, just an imagination and a couple easy charts.
To a large extent, I agree with the original post. HP can be severely unrealistic - like a tank of gas you just need to fill up every so often. I mean, even on some short campaigns I've done, pc's would in all fairness have come away decrepit cripples, barely able to get the morning paper... What I mean is, there are little or no ways to incorporate permanent damage. For example, a character takes a hit that consumes, say, 1/2 or more of their HP. They were nearly killed by a single blow!! You don't just sleep that off!!
Enough of my rant, here's what can be done to ameliorate the problem (While sticking to the time-honored HP system):
1) Be imaginitive! Break bones, create scars, give a concussion, sever nerves... I realize it sounds graphic, and that may be some of the reason the HP system was first implemented, but for those who want realism, this is an easy fix. You can make your own table, which will, based on damage taken (maybe a % of total HP), randomly attatch a type of wound - DM of course manipulates to fit the particular battle - e.g. clubs break bones, spears puncture organs/arteries.
2) Explain healing! Once you've decided what kind of wound the character has recieved, make them take the necessary steps to fix it. Gashes need stitching, bones need a splint, etc. Also, with regard to magic (potions & spells), they can still work the same (recovering HP), but they are more detailed/realistic. A potion of greater healing might close a knife wound that would need stitches otherwise. This will make it so that you can pay little or no attention to all but the most grevious of wounds - and get back to playing!
All in all, I'm saying it doesn't take an entirely new system to enhance the damage system, just an imagination and a couple easy charts.
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Rob-hin
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We are thinking about a new HP system too and the star wars HP system caught my eye.
Check it out.
Have you tried it and/or what do you think of it?
Check it out.
Have you tried it and/or what do you think of it?
Guinness is good for you.
Gives you strength.
Gives you strength.
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boo's daddy
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[QUOTE=Maeglor]You can make your own table, which will, based on damage taken (maybe a % of total HP), randomly attatch a type of wound - DM of course manipulates to fit the particular battle - e.g. clubs break bones, spears puncture organs/arteries.[/QUOTE]
If you want to do this, I think the RuneQuest system was great. Roll a d20 for hit location:
1-4 = right leg (33%)
5-8 = left leg (33%)
9-11 = abdomen (33%)
12 = chest (40%)
13-15 = right arm (25%)
16-18 = left arm (25%)
19-20 = head (33%)
You can take it a step further using the percentages. If a character takes that proportion of their total hit points in that location, they lose the use of it. If that happens to the head, chest or abdomen, they are dead.
If you want to do this, I think the RuneQuest system was great. Roll a d20 for hit location:
1-4 = right leg (33%)
5-8 = left leg (33%)
9-11 = abdomen (33%)
12 = chest (40%)
13-15 = right arm (25%)
16-18 = left arm (25%)
19-20 = head (33%)
You can take it a step further using the percentages. If a character takes that proportion of their total hit points in that location, they lose the use of it. If that happens to the head, chest or abdomen, they are dead.
I don't take all this as seriously as some people.
I see it more as how good someone is at taking damage or getting away from damage.
A level 1 fighter has 10 hp..he takes 1 damage, he has a cut and it's all ouchie.
A level 10 fighter has 100 hps..he takes 10 damage, in relation is is the exact same amount of damage as he took as level 1.
1 hp of damage to a newbie in fighting can be a huge slash across his stomach..where 1 hp of damage to an expert fighter can be a hangnail or a splinter.
I also like using a crit system that allows you to either incapacitate a limb or do extra damage.
So you roll a crit and it is confirmed and I ask the PC "so, you just want to hit, or do you wanna take out an arm or something?" and if they want to attack an arm, then that creature can't use the arm anymore (atleast until it is mended and all that) unless it is a troll..then it will just heal in a couple rounds and be workable again.
And it may seem a little complicated by the way I type..but I actually don't really think about it at all when it is happening.
I see it more as how good someone is at taking damage or getting away from damage.
A level 1 fighter has 10 hp..he takes 1 damage, he has a cut and it's all ouchie.
A level 10 fighter has 100 hps..he takes 10 damage, in relation is is the exact same amount of damage as he took as level 1.
1 hp of damage to a newbie in fighting can be a huge slash across his stomach..where 1 hp of damage to an expert fighter can be a hangnail or a splinter.
I also like using a crit system that allows you to either incapacitate a limb or do extra damage.
So you roll a crit and it is confirmed and I ask the PC "so, you just want to hit, or do you wanna take out an arm or something?" and if they want to attack an arm, then that creature can't use the arm anymore (atleast until it is mended and all that) unless it is a troll..then it will just heal in a couple rounds and be workable again.
And it may seem a little complicated by the way I type..but I actually don't really think about it at all when it is happening.