Spanish political upset

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:34 pm

Originally posted by RandomThug
@Morlock horrible spam right here but I have to say it.

A way out west there was a fella, fella I want to tell you about, fella by the name of Jeff Lebowski. At least, that was the handle his lovin' parents gave him, but he never had much use for it himself. This Lebowski, he called himself the Dude. Now, Dude, that's a name no one would self-apply where I come from. But then, there was a lot about the Dude that didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. And a lot about where he lived, like- wise. But then again, maybe that's why I found the places'durned innarestin'.

I don't know about you, but I take
comfort in that. It's good knowin'
he's out there, the Dude, takin' her
easy for all us sinners. Shoosh. I
sure hope he makes The finals. Welp,
that about does her, wraps her all
up. Things seem to've worked out
pretty good for the Dude'n Walter,
and it was a purt good story, dontcha
think? Made me laugh to beat the
band. Parts, anyway. Course--I
didn't like seein' Donny go. But
then, happen to know that there's a
little Lebowski on the way. I guess
that's the way the whole durned human
comedy keeps perpetuatin' it-self,
down through the generations, westward
the wagons, across the sands a time
until-- aw, look at me, I'm ramblin'
again. Wal, uh hope you folks enjoyed
yourselves.

And you're not spamming, you're out of your %#$@ing element!

P.S.-Big Lebowski is never out of place!

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:09 pm

Originally posted by Sojourner
Weasel, the Spanish have a long history of dealing with terrorism, in particular, the ETA. I would not call them terrorised. I see this as a case of the Spanish having little tolerance for deception on the part of their government, and that they see this as an excuse to pull out of an unpopular war that many feel has little to do with fighting terrorism.

If the polls had shown beforehand that the Socialist were ahead because of the stance of the Government in Iraq, I could believe the people of Spain were not swayed. Instead the polls had the popular party ahead.

In a little better news (at least for my view) the Poles have decided to step up and take Spains place as the "command of a stabilisation force" in Iraq.

Link to story

I just hope an attack doesn't happen in Poland and tests their will.......

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:28 pm

Originally posted by Weasel
I just hope an attack doesn't happen in Poland and tests their will.......

That I seriously doubt. Terrorist organisations, like everything else, have only a limited amount of resources at their disposal. Another major attack by al'queda would have to wait.

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:46 pm

This didn't cost much. That's the tragedy and the horror of it. You can do this kind of thing with $250 and the internet.
You people believe Spain is pulling out because of the bombs? Wrong. Spain is pulling out because they, like a large portion of Europe, are tired of supporting a war they were forced into because they're members of NATO and NATO has become a tool for the USA to use as they see fit. We're seeing the failure of a modern day crusade, created by a conservative body of governements who like to present themselves as "decent" christians out for justice and truth.

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:50 pm

They wouldn't have pulled out if not for the bombings. Terror changed the course of an entire country.

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:59 pm

Oh phooey! Has it made any difference in Belfast or Gaza?

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:15 pm

Originally posted by Moonbiter
You people believe Spain is pulling out because of the bombs? Wrong. Spain is pulling out because they, like a large portion of Europe, are tired of supporting a war they were forced into because they're members of NATO and NATO has become a tool for the USA to use as they see fit. We're seeing the failure of a modern day crusade, created by a conservative body of governements who like to present themselves as "decent" christians out for justice and truth.

No, Spain is not pulling out because of the bombings. Spain is pulling off because the opposition of the government that was supporting the war came to power. But it would have never made it into power without the bombings.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:22 pm

Originally posted by Moonbiter

You people believe Spain is pulling out because of the bombs? Wrong. Spain is pulling out because they, like a large portion of Europe, are tired of supporting a war they were forced into because they're members of NATO

Are we talking about Afghanistan or Iraq?

I'm pretty sure NATO was only involved in Afghanistan, not Iraq.

As to Spain pulling out, I tend to believe the same as Vicsun.

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:24 pm

Zapatero would not have won if not for the bombings last week.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:48 pm

The spanish are pulling out in order to do two things, one define thier newly elected political party as opposed to war on Iraq and two to bring more troops to protect thier own country. But Morlock's point is disturbing, this is all because of Terrorism.

Im proud of the Polish being of polish background (jussst a little. Mostly Sicilian and British).

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:20 pm

Originally posted by Morlock
Zapatero would not have won if not for the bombings last week.

And the government's perceived mismanagement of the situation.

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:32 pm

Originally posted by Sojourner
And the government's perceived mismanagement of the situation.

Which would not have happened if the situation had not occured. Whether the government should've been voted out is besides the point.
These bombings changed the election results.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:49 pm

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:50 pm

Terrorism's goal is being achieved, you bending to the thought of future threat.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:55 pm

Or perhaps they simply decided it was better to spend their resources on actually dealing with the terrorists.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:07 pm

Originally posted by RandomThug
Terrorism's goal is being achieved, you bending to the thought of future threat.

I don't think anybody on the national or international front has even remotely suggested that the goal of this kind of terrorist was to oust the Conservative Party and bring in the Socialists. The goal of the terrorists is what it has always been: to violently express complete disatisfaction with the socio-political status quo in their home nations. That's it. To even think that Al Qa'idah would have a strategic agenda completely misses the point of every single one of their previous actions. They're not bullies. They're nihilists.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:11 pm

Well, Fable, I think we're seeing the effect of years of the Bush administration propaganda.

Gilgalen · Post by **Gilgalen** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:45 am

Oh my. Rush Limbaugh would be proud of some of the things said here. So much knee jerk conservatism, including my favorite: “if you don’t vote conservative, the terrorists have won!”

The Spanish backed a ‘war on terror’ and yet it’s pretty clear that it was ineffective. The ruling conservative party also jumped to convenient conclusions and blamed the ETA before looking at the evidence, which rightfully angered many people. There were no demand to vote one way or another associated with the bombing, it was just hate and violence, and it still hasn’t been proven that it’s Al Qaeda.

Democratic elections took place, and the people voted. I suppose democracy isn’t enough – it has to be conservative democracy now? Sure, the bombings affected people’s feelings, but to call each individual voter a coward is beyond rude. I consider it a vote of no-confidence. One could just as easily say that the conservatives enabled terrorism by buying into an ineffectual ‘war on terror.’

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:57 am

Originally posted by Gilgalen
Sure, the bombings affected people’s feelings, but to call each individual voter a coward is beyond rude. I consider it a vote of no-confidence.

As far as I understand, it wasn't so much fear or cowardice that made people who would've voted Partido Popular vote for the socialists. It was out of anger towards the Partido Popular. Many people figured Aznar had been withhelding information about the investigations about the attacks.
That's probably true - at one point the Spanish secret service found out that the bombers were probably Al Qa'ida and not ETA. It's been said that Aznar didn't want that information coming out before the elections because he figured his party would lose votes because of that; after all, the socialists wouldn't have send soldiers to Iraq. Aznar did, which is why Al Qa'ida did what they did.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:10 am

According to the BBC, the Spanish Police have made a breakthrough in the case. Warrants have been issued for five Morrocans that are at large, and a sixth is in custody. They are all described as "suspects."