Spanish political upset

Gilgalen · Post by **Gilgalen** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:42 am

Maybe if you vow to stamp out terrorism and make a unilateral decision to invade and occupy not one but two countries in effort to do so, you shouldn’t be surprised that the public gets miffed when they find out that a) you willingly embraced sketchy information before taking action, and b) due to ‘a’ and a whole bunch of other reasons you have been wholly ineffective.

Spain won’t be the last country to change its course. Expect Italy to be next. Naturally Spain and Italy will be joining France, Germany, and Russia. Maybe in about 5 years the US will be able to repair its relationship with European allies.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:54 am

The Spanish backed a ‘war on terror’ and yet it’s pretty clear that it was ineffective.

I know many who would argue that case to death. America and its allies have been effective in our efforts. I will list some things but i do believe in do time fable will correct me, willingly I accept this because he is normaly right. Afghanastan was full of terrorist camps and Al queada. Well According to what I hear and read and its not all convservative American media we've crippled at least the high levels of leadership in that terrorist group. I know we have captured lots of weapon cache's that would be used for terror (my friend in the Air Force was on duty in Afghanastan and they found, amung many others, a cave full of weaponary ((Missles and junk I cant remember). We have ousted a dictator, we can debate why all day but no one can deny we removed an evil man from a place of power he was abusing.

Spain, Poland, Britain and our other allies all have helped and we have achieved. If you think the bombing of spain recently is something of proof of this not working I'd argue the ETA has been at this for years and well you cant stomp out fanatics like this over night, in a year or even five.

@Fable my intentions are not to declare the terrorists goals have been achieved as in political or actuall tactical manuevers. My belief is any change of your daily life because of fear of something that might happen for instance me moving because i think North Korea might nuke LA. Thats terrorists getting thier way.

Oh btw if anyone wants to argue the Iraq war had nothing to do with terrorism, from what I gather, that is wrong. Saddam had no links to the big Al queda but he had ties to other terror groups and he was a terror too.

Gilgalen · Post by **Gilgalen** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:38 am

I know many who would argue that case to death.

Well, when you argue with Americans, you have to be prepared to argue to the death! Ok, ok, I’m mostly kidding. You can put away your six-shooter.

I know we have captured lots of weapon cache's that would be used for terror.

Yes, these were state of the art weapons in the 80’s when the US govt. gave them to the Afgan rebels to use against the Soviets.

If you think the bombing of spain recently is something of proof of this not working…

Well, it certainly isn’t proof that it is working. I think when you make a commitment as massive as the invasion of two countries, it’s fare to expect a certain level of unmitigated success. But I’m just a silly schoolgirl. Don’t take my word for it.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:12 am

Yes, these were state of the art weapons in the 80’s when the US govt. gave them to the Afgan rebels to use against the Soviets.

You can kill thousands with fertalizer. It is not the fight to argue who gave who but to stop those from using them for evil.

And yes it sometimes comes down to arguments to the death with Us Americans and I credit that to our stubberness and your stubberness (Your being everyone else). I think weasel said it best in a thread long ago, let me mis quote him, If there were forums during roman times, everyone would be talking smack about Rome.

Well, it certainly isn’t proof that it is working. I think when you make a commitment as massive as the invasion of two countries, it’s fare to expect a certain level of unmitigated success. But I’m just a silly schoolgirl. Don’t take my word for it.

My only issue with this is well what else are we to do.

smass · Post by **smass** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:17 am

Well, it certainly isn’t proof that it is working. I think when you make a commitment as massive as the invasion of two countries, it’s fare to expect a certain level of unmitigated success

I thought I read somewhere that the totalitarian regime of Saddam Hussein was overthrown and that he and many of his cohorts have been captured and are awaiting trial. I also understand that the Taliban is no longer running Afganistan. Seems like a decent measure of success - but hey I am just a silly American.... *puts away his six gun*

Gilgalen · Post by **Gilgalen** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:37 am

You can kill thousands with fertalizer.

The whole thing smells strongly of fertilizer. So why the huge campaign against WMDs if manure is the enemy?!

My only issue with this is well what else are we to do.

I don’t know… if in doubt, carpet bomb! And since every orphan is ripe to become a terrorist, we should start with the orphanages.

I thought I read somewhere that the totalitarian regime of Saddam Hussein was overthrown

No one would argue that Saddam was a good guy. In fact, he showed himself to be pretty sinister at the very moment he seized power decades ago and executed the opposition. Why not deal with him then? Don’t tell me this is some ultraistic freedom mission. The US was very clear prior to the war that they wanted to kill terrorists and take away their WMDs. Mission Accomplished!?

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:54 am

Now, there's a point...

What else are we to do....

The cause. The symptom. The cure.
Sometimes back in during the Cold War era, the world, apart from the US and the USSR, took a pretty dim view on solving murder with murder, or violence with more violence. It got sort of unfashionable. Not anymore.

It was argued after 9.11 that the US had it coming to them. After 50 years walzing around the planet dropping bombs on anyone who didn't agree with their way of life, someone finally struck back. No matter how grotesque that statement may seem, it has a lot of truth in it. There are millions of people out there who's had their worlds turned to ashes because of the West, and our impossibly inflated sense of democracy and what's a decent way of living and what's not. We, by the power we've got, have become the in nomina executors of what we call a "civilized humane way of life." Now, if you take a sober look (and it's actually quite enlightening) at what's left of our well-intended bombings, incursions and general bossing around of other people in for instance Kossovo or Zimbawe, you wake up to a different reality. Fable mentioned something important: The acceptance of, and wish for totalitarian(sp?) religions and regimes all over the world is on a frenetic rise. People in for instance Russia, where "democracy" has led to mob-rule, dream about the days of yore when their lives followed a set pattern. People in Kossovo, where the great alllllmighty NATO came, didn't see, and bombed anyway, are left under the rule of the so-called victors, who're doing the same crimes every day as was the reason for the incursion in the first place. It's been forgotten by the world, and we "free, democratic" knowitalls move on to bomb another farm where we feel they need "liberation & democracy."

78% of the people in Spain went to the urns. Of course the bombing made a difference, but I have enough belief in the people of Spain to think that they needed a change regardless of the senseless massacre.

Oh, what a rant. Pardón my crap English, but I'm on a rebound.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:06 pm

After 50 years walzing around the planet dropping bombs on anyone who didn't agree with their way of life, someone finally struck back.

I dont have time to address your whole issue so I'll just hit this. My issue with that is that you make the assumption America has been alone in these "Planet dropping of bombs". As if others haven't supported us, probably your country too. We may have been the guns but we weren't alone. The fact is we represent something the terrorists want gone, regardless of what we have done the West can not exist in thier perfect world. If the US had nothing ever to do with Iraq/Afghanastan no investment in Isreal whatever, they would still bomb us. It's thier way to make the world the way they want it. America hasn't been walzing around shaking its big (Censored) around, untill recently we've been doing the damn work. My problem is that everyone (Untill Bush really) wanted us to help, expected us to come. Everyone expects America to be there to help but when the outcome isn't what you want, well we deserve it.

Argh busy cant think.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:12 pm

Originally posted by Moonbiter

Sometimes back in during the Cold War era, the world, apart from the US and the USSR, took a pretty dim view on solving murder with murder, or violence with more violence. It got sort of unfashionable.

I take it China (with what 1/4 of the worlds population) saw this light your talking about. Tibet might disagree..

Should I move on,

India and Pakistan?

Even more?

How about the countries of Africa? Have they seen this light?

Seems to me your "the world" comes down to Europe maybe?

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:16 pm

Originally posted by smass
I thought I read somewhere that the totalitarian regime of Saddam Hussein was overthrown and that he and many of his cohorts have been captured and are awaiting trial. I also understand that the Taliban is no longer running Afganistan.

No, the Warlords are (again). Time and probably Newsweek did a nice layout on the territory they control. Taliban is reportedly making a comeback. We continue to lose troops. If that's success, I'd hate to see failure.

But now, we're moving off-topic.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:28 pm

@Soj the damn country has always been run by War Lords, his comment was about the taliban not the war lords. Spinner!

Gilgalen · Post by **Gilgalen** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:48 pm

No matter how grotesque that statement may seem, it has a lot of truth in it.

Finally! Someone knows what the al qaeda demands are. And here I was thinking they didn’t have any. Please, tell us! You should start a new topic…. No a whole new web page!

I don’t know about anyone else, but I’d love to know the ‘truth’ behind mass murder.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:51 pm

Originally posted by RandomThug
@Soj the damn country has always been run by War Lords, his comment was about the taliban not the war lords. Spinner!

Watch those personal attacks!

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:55 pm

Let me start with this one:

I dont have time to address your whole issue so I'll just hit this. My issue with that is that you make the assumption America has been alone in these "Planet dropping of bombs". As if others haven't supported us

Noooo, like I said WE. Period. Read again, please.

Next:

I take it China (with what 1/4 of the worlds population) saw this light your talking about. Tibet might disagree..

I'm still talking about our "western way of life" here. And to make one point remarkably clear here: It's a part of the "democratic free way of life" that WE've been pushing, that it gets inside your brain in a strange way. This has become a mess of a thread, but I'll bite. What about China? What have they done against the world of "freedom and democracy" that the Chimp keeps nagging on about lately? Huh? They, like the Serbs, live in a world that THEY CONQUERED. The Serbs did it in the battle of Kossovo Polje from the islamic invaders with so much blood shed, you can hardly imagine it. It's a part of their soul! Y'Know Dracula? The Impaler? His father, Vlad 1, fought and won in that battle. So a couple of years ago Mister West shows up with our bombs and our "freedom and democracy," bombs the beejeez out of the place, and gives it back to the losers from Kosovo Polje. Who can't run a country worth F'**.

The Cause. The Symptom. The Cure.
Stop messing with each other. Focus on yourself. The splinter... and all that. We, "The West," have developed a perch unequalled since the Crusades. The moment everyone! can sit down and dig his team without feeling bad about "the other guys," you'll have a party.

Not that I think that's ever gonna happen....

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:22 pm

Originally posted by Moonbiter
This has become a mess of a thread, but I'll bite. What about China?

"the world" This was my point, who is "the world" your talking about? You gave the impression that the US and the USSR were the only two countries in the "World" who didn't take a pretty dim view on solving murder with murder, or violence with more violence.

As to the chimp remark,

I take that in the same vein as an American calling a French a Cheese Surrendering Monkey...This American would be a Uneducated Moron From the Hills. UMFH for short.

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:53 pm

Originally posted by RandomThug
@Soj the damn country has always been run by War Lords, his comment was about the taliban not the war lords. Spinner!

But the (real) question was: did we make a difference? Did we accomplish something good? The answer seems to be no.

I'm not a pacifist. Sometimes ther may be need for violence. The trouble is, in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kosovo, Somalia, etc. that same violence, well intended or not, didn't accomplish much. Nothing longlasting, nothing stable.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:02 pm

IT's really just a cycle of violence. Big country comes in, oppress people (to varying degrees), revolt happens (form of terrorism, or full out of rebellion), short time frame of peace, and then the process repeats. Granted, it's a tad more complicated when you examine the individual aspects of it all, but it can be broken down to that.

I see this as one of many steps taken in this cycle of violence and political change, as I view the same for the people of Haiti. It won't stop, but that is our nature. Hell, we're our own biggest threat.

Anyway, I'm gonna stop right now, because I'm starting to not even make sense to myself. Maybe I'll be able to say it more clearly later.

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:39 pm

Every country should mind their own bussiness. Mixing it up will just kill everyone a whole lot quicker.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:10 pm

@Soj I am sorry really, kinda was thinking I was coming off funny, then I re read and well sorry. No personal attack meant.

Gilgalen · Post by **Gilgalen** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:51 pm

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the—the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice."—Washington, D.C., Oct. 27, 2003