Idiots vs. Brainers

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:04 pm

Drizzt is a drow, he have a natural resistance to magic.
He have fought against TWO experainced mages before leaving the underdark.
Of couse that Elmister is a chosen of mystra and can call for the other chosen for help if needed.
Also most mages dont have a +16 Int score, 16 is a good score for most mages.(they dont say "geez, I dont like my roll, let me make another", the use what they have)

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 1:36 pm

I think with the realease of ToB, this thread needs to be re-opened, and re-discussed. All the new gear, and the Wild Mage offers some new options to it all as well. Have fun.

Bernacass · Post by **Bernacass** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 2:22 pm

There is no possible way a fighter, any fighter, no matter what his tactics, could beat my sorcerer... in Baldur's Gate 2. Why?

Improved haste.
Time stop.
Shapechange: Mind Flayer.
Dead fighter (intelligence drain).

There is no defense against this. Unless the fighter has over twenty intelligence, he's dead. In Pen and Paper there's probably a way to defend against this, but not in BG2.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 2:34 pm

Originally posted by Bernacass:
There is no possible way a fighter, any fighter, no matter what his tactics, could beat my sorcerer... in Baldur's Gate 2. Why?

Improved haste.
Time stop.
Shapechange: Mind Flayer.
Dead fighter (intelligence drain).

There is no defense against this. Unless the fighter has over twenty intelligence, he's dead. In Pen and Paper there's probably a way to defend against this, but not in BG2.

Well one hit while you are casting your Timestop will interupt the spell.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 3:30 pm

Thats one thing people always forget about in this topic. They always forget that a well placed arrow/aword/axe/bludgeon/knife/rabbit will always disrupt the spell.

Personally, I'd take a fight over a mage almost any day of the week.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 4:02 pm

Imprisonment hits the field now. Dunno if there are scrolls in ToB, but Sorcerers could just pick it anyway. Can it be stopped?

The idea that a Fighter could beat a Mage would imply that the classes are totally out of balance. Why use Mages when Fighters are more effective without even needing rest?

As ever, my vote goes to the Mage. Even if the Fighter had the choice of terrain, had the equipment of his choice and the Mage didn't have any, and the Mage didn't have trigger spells prepared, I'd still give the Mage a chance. Reason: Chain Contingency casts instantly.

Inquisitors are clearly superior to Fighters. Ironically, they would probably be most effective throwing Potions of Explosion (mimicing what Mages do best).

King Leoric · Post by **King Leoric** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 4:27 pm

There are a lot of ways to cast a spell like timestop without being hit:

Considering no environmental damage, stoneskin, mantle and it's variations are great!

Even considering env. damage, mirror image works great, or the mage could cast an (invisible!!) wizard eye to follow the fighter, go out of sight (invisible, with THE staff of the magi) and then cast the timestop (lasts for 6 rounds, i think), then, he could run to the fighter and suck his brains out (imagine the scene: an improved hasted, equiped with boots of speed mind flayer, running like crazy, with 10 (!!!) attacks/round, with each attack draining 4 (or 5?) points of int).

Besides, to truly kill a mage, the fighter would have to beat 6 or 7 mages equal to the original mage, due to projected images, wich doesn't end the 2nd level spell invisibility (the mage can just stand invisible and keep casting projected images, wich can go far away with their own wizard's eyes)

*Number of Projected Images = 6 or 7, because there is 3 from a 17th level mage, one from specialist, one from the ring of wizardry (as a matter of fact, you can have two of them, but i never made my apprendices make one for me) and, for last, the mage himself)

I won't even consider that each of this 7 mages can cast a couple of simulacrums and summon HUNDREDS of monsters (the game doesn't count them in the 5 limit if they are summoned from the simmys/projected images)

As for a 9/17 Kensai/mage, i can make my AC go to -28 (!!!), 9 attacks/round (impr hasted tensored slayer), a THAC0 of -13, immunity to dispelling, improved invisibility, multiple stoneskins/mirror images, and, if i am not the slayer, i can have more than 300 HP

This can kick a fighter's butt any day of the week, all contained within the 3 triggers the game allows you to have (i don't like to turn into the slayer: he makes the char *much* weaker):

Minor Spell sequencer: Blur+Mirror Image

Sequencer:Spirit Armor+Stoneskin+Impr. Inv

Trigger:Spell Immunity(bye, bye Inquisitor)+Improved Haste+TENSOR's

So, you can see that even fighting with his muscles the mage can win easily!!!

King Leoric · Post by **King Leoric** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 10:31 pm

ooops some mistakes!!

Tensor's is the most bugged spell in the game!!! I don't know if it's just me, who cast DOZENS of spells and use potions and itens over it, so you never know what to expect from the interactions of tensor's and other magical stuff

I noticed that the slayer can't cast spells, but he can special abilities, such as triggers, so i was making tests with the ultimate killing machine with my K/M, but you apparently get different results depending on the order that you cast the spels:

In a battle:
1)cast a spell sequencer containing
Stoneskin + Spirit Armor + Impr. inv.
(now few people will see you, and therefore attack you)

2)Minor sequencer,with:
Blur + Mirror Image

3) Go Slayer (now i have 100 HP)

4)Spell trigger, containing
Impr. Haste+Spell Immunity +Tensor's -> He becomes visible, and therefor targetable only now!!!

Now, These are the Results i have obtained:

=> 298 HP (i really don't know where the hell this number came from)

=> THAC0 of -13 in main hand and -15 in off-hand (strange, my main weapon is Cel. Fury (+3), and my off-hand is Dakkon's (+2)), but a slayer only uses his fists

=> AC = -25 (Should be -29, but my game is not patched, and improved invisibility isn't giving the 4 point bonus to AC and Savings)

=> VERY negative saving trows

=> 10 Attacks/round !!!!!!

It's a kensai9/mage17 from bg1, with st19, dx18, con19, int 19, wis12, cha 8

I'm using the pale green ioun, Fury and Dakkon, robe of vecna, ring of gaxx, ring +2, amulet of power, boots of speed, golden girdle.

The main problem is that tensor's won't allow me to use the special abilities, so i have to wait until it wears off to become human again, what can be very deadly!!!!

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sun Jul 22, 2001 12:06 am

Originally posted by Aegis:
Thats one thing people always forget about in this topic. They always forget that a well placed arrow/aword/axe/bludgeon/knife/rabbit will always disrupt the spell.

Personally, I'd take a fight over a mage almost any day of the week.

Also something most people debate when setting up these "Who-is-better"-scenarios is that the mage with their sequencers go into combat-speculations prepared.
For instant, I'll just place this and this in a seqencer before - well of course, and the fighter will just go into combat protected from magic etc.

There are alwasy moves and counter-moves.
(IMO)

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sun Jul 22, 2001 3:28 am

Originally posted by King Leoric:
even fighting with his muscles the mage can win easily!!!

I don't think anyone claims that Fighter/Mages (brain and brawn) have anything to fear from the brainless.

Originally posted by Xandax:
There are alwasy moves and counter-moves.

How 'bout we shift the discussion to an unprepared, unequipped Mage versus a prepared and equipped Inquisitor or Berserker? The Mage still has options to win this one. Try that the other way around and it won't be pretty...

King Leoric · Post by **King Leoric** » Sun Jul 22, 2001 3:36 pm

Ok, ok, there may be many variables, but i just can't imagine any solution to a hopeless fighter in an area that isn't just too small to defeat a wizard who spotted him, became invisible, made an wizard eye to keep following the fighter, then the wiz could go out of sight, cast impr. haste, then cast shapechange to mindflyer, and finally read a timestop scroll (maybe a clone could do this...) to go suck the fighter brain.

So, can anybody find a solution for ANY FIGHTER to escape the mindflayer strategy in an not-too-small area?

Even invisibility effects will end someday for a fighter, but not for a wiz with the staff of the magi, and anytime when the wizard eye sees the fighter getting too close to the wizard, he could run away invisible...

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Jul 22, 2001 3:57 pm

I'm pretty sure there is an item that protects againest mind drain effects. Might have to look it up though...

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 2:08 am

Aegis, of course we could bring up the Protection from Magic scroll. Fighter casts it while the mage is trying to cast Time Stop. Then fighter hacks mage into little bits. But we won't go there, will we Aegis.

I still maintain this old debate hinges far more on the player than the character. All your contingencies mean nothing when I down a potion of invisibility and run off to wait them out. Yes, you can find me, but then we start out from scratch. Without contingincies. Thrust and counter-thrust. It's the player, not the character. No class is all powerful. All can be beat with the right player.

Dimensional · Post by **Dimensional** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 2:34 am

Personaly i think an archer should be able to take a mage

Reason

stealth + cloak non detection you have an undetectable archer

eqip with tuigan bow + arrows of dispelling + ring of gaxx (for improved haste)

sit quiet wait for mage to cast anything - mage becomes vissible - activate gaxx - shoot at mage 10 shots per rnd disspelling =dead mage (arows of dispelling are able to dispell stoneskin/prot for normal wepons/prot missile /mantle/prot magical wepons - normaly 2-3 arrrows = unprotected mage also at 10 hits /rnd it is very difficult to do anything as knockback keeps dissrupting movment etc.

add potions prot magic scrolls prot magic to suit.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 4:05 am

Originally posted by Rail:
<snip>
All can be beat with the right player.

My sentiment excatly

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 7:39 am

I have always agreed with the fact. But sometimes luck gets the better of you.

King Leoric · Post by **King Leoric** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 12:19 pm

@Dimensional

Just wondering what is the "level" of the arrows of dispelling.

Also, for the archer trying to beat the wizard, if you turn the auto-pause option for the char being hit, only the first arrow will hit the wiz, and then the staff of the magi is activated...

Again, even with the cloak on non-det, once your stealth ends for some reason, you couldn't hide in shadows again, 'cause the mage could keep following you invisible...

@Rail

Protection from magic doesn't make you imune to timestop

Even if the prot from magic is cast on the wizard, this won't stop the staff of the magi from working until the effects wear off...

Also, remember that a mage can start casting only when he knows that the fighter is far away (wizard eye)...

So, in many cases, this just ISN'T up to the player, at least under certain conditions...

But, apparently, it's almost a dogma from some sort of religion in here (no offense) that it's always up to the player...

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 12:28 pm

Get a fight use stratigys come action action

King Leoric · Post by **King Leoric** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 6:31 pm

Craig...

huh?

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 9:54 pm

Originally posted by King Leoric:
@Rail

Protection from magic doesn't make you imune to timestop <snip>

I believe it does. All magical effects and spells fail. You can't cast, and you can't be effected by magic. Sucks if you're a spellcaster.

Originally posted by King Leoric:
Even if the prot from magic is cast on the wizard, this won't stop the staff of the magi from working until the effects wear off... <snip>

Same as above comment. I'll freely admit that I have not tested the staff of magi out, but no other magical item's effects will function while under the effects of this scroll. Try it out. If I'm wrong, I have no problem with that. My mistake.

Originally posted by King Leoric:
Also, remember that a mage can start casting only when he knows that the fighter is far away (wizard eye)... <snip>

Same is true for a fighter. Down an invisibility potion and wait out the wizard eye. Back to square one.

Originally posted by King Leoric:
So, in many cases, this just ISN'T up to the player, at least under certain conditions...

But, apparently, it's almost a dogma from some sort of religion in here (no offense) that it's always up to the player...

Yeah, it does seem to be almost a religion in this thread. Keep in mind, many of us have seen several people come through here with several different characters and strategies, all claiming to be invincible and invulnerable. I think you have a very solid strategy. Period. There are chances an opponent would have to disrupt it, but not many. However, I also think you'd hate to face some of my characters in a fight. I'd certainly surprise you. On the same note, I'd hate to face your spellcaster in a fight.

I guess I've just seen the arguement go round and round about "I'll do this" and "well then, I'll do this" and it seems to get nowhere. I like the strategies presented, though, and I think they give several of us some new ideas and some new respect for another class.

No offense meant by any of this, of course, and I hope none was taken.