Idiots vs. Brainers

smokealotabud · Post by **smokealotabud** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 2:08 pm

my fighter has 18 intelligence i odnt thin kthat qualifies as an idiot, actusally my fighter could dual class to anything and be as good as a normal class of that nature, i got awesome rolls with him

str: 18/73 = 19 with tome
dex: 18 = 19 from tome
con: 18 = 19 from tome
int: 17 = 18 from tome
wis: 15 = 18 with all 3 tomes
cha: 11 = 12 with tome

so my character could dual to practically anything and actually be good at it, except bard but who would want to be a bard, honestly

King Leoric · Post by **King Leoric** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:47 pm

Ok rail, i really must stop to idolize mages, but i was checking some of the things you wrote, and there were a few mistakes

1)If you have prot from magic on, you STILL are not immune to Time Stop (if somebody else casts it, you WILL be frozen), and if it's the wizard who has in on himself, he obviously won't be able to sucessfully cast the TimeStop until the prot from m wears off

2)The staff of the magi keeps turning you invisible even if you have prot from magic on

3)A fighter cannot know when he is being spotted by the wiz or by the eye (it's invisible (i guess...)), and his inv potions will eventually end (12 h), but the mage can just keep walking invisible forever. In this way, the mage could just keep walking around invisible, until he sees the fighter(this may take a couple of days, until the potions invisibility end), THEN, he'd go out of sight (the fighter won't realize he was spotted), and...

I'm not trying to be boring or to offend any character class, etc. The problem is that i just can't imagine a way to escape that strategy in a large area... Please, if somebody can, write back, 'cause the discussion is getting interesting, and also, post other "infalible" strategies on a duel that you may have...

[ 07-25-2001: Message edited by: King Leoric ]

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:59 pm

I dislike Staff of Magi's constant invisibility. IMO that's the most biasing thing in the entire game. Remove the constant invisibility and you've got a decent and fair weapon.

King Leoric · Post by **King Leoric** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 12:12 am

In his even i have to agree. The "invisibility on equip" is just too Uber Powerful...

Of course that there are other very powerful weapons, but the staff of the magi is IMHO, the most "combo-friendly" of them all.

Dimensional · Post by **Dimensional** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:08 am

King Leoric Wrote

In his even i have to agree. The "invisibility on equip" is just too Uber Powerful...

I have to agree while amage is able to auto pause and re equip this is just to unbalancing - however without a pause feature and no pause in inventory it would be less so

Personaly i do not like the pause in inventory feature it is just a bit cheesy for me(oh my a dragon/undead etc. let me just get my wepon of dragon slaying/undead slaying quickly ) i kind of liked the unpause in inventory in BG1 - although it did result in a couple of deaths without me noticing. but it felt real and added that tension where you just had to change somthing in combat.

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:15 am

Originally posted by Dimensional:
I have to agree while a mage is able to auto pause and re equip this is just to unbalancing - however without a pause feature and no pause in inventory it would be less so

Not really. All you would have to do is click on the weapon's icon on the bottom of the screen and it would re-equip it. No need to pause.

A better thing to do would have allowed the staff to cast invisibility 3 times per day. Doesn't make it so unbalancing then.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 3:45 pm

Originally posted by Rail:
All magical effects and spells fail. You can't cast, and you can't be effected by magic.

You mean using the thing on the Mage, right? That might be hard, since the Mage is unlikely to just stand there while you walk up to him and read the scroll... Very boring, but suppose the Mage aborts casting and drinks an invisibility potion (or perhaps even casts a really fast spell like Mislead instead), thus wasting your scroll...

Originally posted by Rail:
Down an invisibility potion and wait out the wizard eye. Back to square one.

This invisibility stuff should be taken out of the discussion somehow. Any idiot can drink a potion (except for pre-ToB Wizard Slayers

) and wait for such-and-such to wear off. By that reasoning, all classes would be balanced. This is not the case. There is difference, so there is unbalance. It may be too small or vague to be seen in many cases, but it is still there.

Then again, potions wear out. If both parties keep up the Run & Hide, someone will run out of potions. Moreover, how fast can you drink a potion? Before an (up to that moment) invisible Mage finishes casting Imprisonment on you?

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 3:03 am

Originally posted by Xyx:
You mean using the thing on the Mage, right? That might be hard, since the Mage is unlikely to just stand there while you walk up to him and read the scroll... Very boring, but suppose the Mage aborts casting and drinks an invisibility potion (or perhaps even casts a really fast spell like Mislead instead), thus wasting your scroll... <snip>

Yes, I am talking about using the scroll on your opponent, the mage. The scroll has a very short casting time. I doubt you'd be able to interrupt casting and switch to a potion before the scroll fired. Once you start casting a spell, in order to begin casting another spell you have to wait till the next round. And, of course, how would you know what the fighter was doing? Besides, if you did interrupt your own casting, you'd waste a timestop spell, almost as precious as a scroll of prot from magic scroll, depending on what level were talking about.

@King- I am surprised to hear the invisibility from the staff still works while the scroll is on the mage. IIRC, the prot. from evil doesn't work, so I assumed the invisibility wouldn't either, but I don't mind being wrong. It's happened many times befoer and it'll happen again. Most items' effects, though, don't function under the effects of the scroll, do they?

Originally posted by Xyx:
This invisibility stuff should be taken out of the discussion somehow. Any idiot can drink a potion (except for pre-ToB Wizard Slayers )

Moreover, how fast can you drink a potion? <snip>?

Casting time of 1, IIRC.

What I was trying to say is that there are too many variables to declare a strategy to be invulnerable to failure. For example, scrolls of prot. from magic, potions of invisibility, book of infinite spells, thieves' traps. Imagine if the aforementioned strategy (timestop/shapechange to mindflayer/INT drain, for those not scoring the game at home.

) was used on a Bounty Hunter who was using himself as bait. Do traps still go off during a timestop spell? I don't rightly know, but that could kill a mindflayer before it arrived.

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Rail ]

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 4:05 am

Well invisibility is worthless toward a little item one of my fighters carries - "Book of infinity spells" -> True Seeing.

Futhermore a fighter can still hit a mage that is Improved invisible, because he becomes partial visible when trying to cast a spell, and a normal invisibility is dispelled when casting spells.

I would still say, that the mage has many spells that would be able to defeat a fighter (Shapechange -> mindflayer, Energydrain, timestop etc.) but most of these spells can/will be interupted if/when a fighter gets in close. So I'd still say that they are pretty evenly matched - and it is mostly the players strategies that is the main factor.

(don't get me wrong though, I mainly prefere spellcasters

)

Garcia · Post by **Garcia** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 4:17 am

also when we are talking sorceres it does make a diffrence who is behind the steringwheel a mage has many more options than a fighter. If the fight don't start close and the sorc. can cast just one spell I find it hard to belive how the fighter will stand a chance. just haste will provide a lot of trouble. one haste and you can make all the hit and runs that you want...timestop...

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 1:09 pm

Originally posted by Rail:
if you did interrupt your own casting, you'd waste a timestop spell, almost as precious as a scroll of prot from magic scroll, depending on what level were talking about.

Uhm... since invisibility lasts so long, the Mage could just lie down in a quiet corner and rest to regain his spells. Only if we are talking about a big area, of course.

Superiority in battle is not really proven by avoiding battle, IMHO. Perhaps we should limit our discussions to idiots and brainers carrying only ten magic items or so. That would put an end to the "I use this! I use that!" stuff.

Originally posted by Xandax:
Well invisibility is worthless toward a little item one of my fighters carries - "Book of infinity spells" -> True Seeing.

Sorry to bust your bubble

, but Spell Immunity - Divination protects against that...

Originally posted by Xandax:
Futhermore a fighter can still hit a mage that is Improved invisible, because he becomes partial visible when trying to cast a spell, and a normal invisibility is dispelled when casting spells.

There's this nice, overpowered level 6 spell called Mislead, that actually keeps you invisible while casting spells. Just keep the decoy far away from the battle...

Someone with Potions of Explosions could still get to you, but then again, there are a zillion ways to protect against fire damage.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 10:53 pm

@Xyx: Yes - you could use "Spell Immunity - Divination" but all this adds up to that you must cast more and more spells - and again when fighting figther-types, time is very much of the essens.
And maybe somebody hadn't thought of using that spell - this is why I keep saying that it is as much the player behind the character as the character class that determines the outcome of such duels

KillerKid · Post by **KillerKid** » Mon Jul 30, 2001 3:35 pm

just posting to see if it will put this at the first page

Goof · Post by **Goof** » Mon Jul 30, 2001 7:38 pm

There will never be any resolution ot this, however it is very informative, but for starters, make some parameters that need to be set.

1. Time Frame for fight
2. Border/area restricking where they can go
3. Lvl
4. EQ

Actualy i thinkit should be tested say lvl 5, then again at 10, then 12, then 15, 17, 20, then might as well skip to 30+

King Leoric · Post by **King Leoric** » Mon Jul 30, 2001 7:55 pm

Everybody is talking about these tests made at the XP cap

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:52 pm

Let's talk using Core AD&D rules. In other words, were talking now about level 4 characters. Also, lets say it is a standered areana of about 40ft. in diametre. Basic equipment for both participents. So, none of this +12 hackmaster crap, or Robe of Vecna. Just regualar armour, weapons and robes. Let's say the Wizard has a Travelers robe on, and a ring of protection +1, giving a bit of an armour class boost. The fighter with his standerd crap, no potions, no nothing. The Wizard has a full spell book, a nice set of offensive, and defensive spells. Now, lets here some strat talk.

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Tue Jul 31, 2001 12:39 am

I actually get quite a kick out of this conversation once again. you begin casting timestop. I Begin casting Prot. from Magic on you. You abort spell and down an invis. potion. I use book of infinite spells for true seeing. You cast spell immunity- divination. Etc... and on and on and on. It proves one thing. It all depends on the player, how much strategy you know and how much you can guess what the other player is planning.

Sure, I think some classes are more powerful in general than others. If the players are equal, a kensai-mage should beat a skald, IMHO. An inquisitor should beat most spellcasters, IMHO. Most spellcasters should beat most fighters and thieves. However, all players aren't equal. A player who excells at playing one particular class above all others probably would have a better chance beating someone like me who likes playing all classes.

@Aegis- isn't it funny... I started out defending mages and I've ended up defending the fighters. I guess that's because I believe in the player and strategy, not just the character class. Every strategy has a counter move. I still say mages nave the advantage, but they're not unbeatable. Maybe Bounty Hunters would be the most interesting. Hmmmmm.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Tue Jul 31, 2001 2:12 am

Originally posted by Aegis:
level 4 characters. Also, lets say it is a standered areana of about 40ft. in diametre

Seems to favor the warriors... Still, Mirror Image and Invisibility cast fast, and Blindness means save or lose. Familiars would provide a real edge!

How about: Characters at the cap, no magical equipment whatsoever, do all the preparation you like, huge dungeon for arena.

That would favor the mages...

Goof · Post by **Goof** » Tue Jul 31, 2001 9:22 am

"no magical equipment whatsoever"

mage: stone skin, prot from normal weapons, summong something big that takes magic weapins to hit, then continue casting a few def/off spells. Or cast tensers tran or shapechange into something.

Should allow at least +1 weapons and maybe 1 pot of any type.

How much prep time would be allowed before they go into combat? The mage could cast armor/stone skin, inv, blur etc before.

I would like to see some battles from lvl 5-15 take place. And yes, the mage w/ a famailar at lvl 5 would be sweet. btw, was there familars in bg1?

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Tue Jul 31, 2001 11:21 am

Heh, just kidding there.

Fighters have no chance using only non-magical items. Any spell-less individual needs magic items to take on a spellcaster.

There were no familiars in BG1. You'd have to be at least level 7 to have a familiar, since that's the lowest Mage level available in BG2 (level drain exempted).