Idiots vs. Brainers

[Goof]

Did ice wind dale have familars?

also, you could use shadowkeeper to do such things, thats what they claim to be there for right?

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Goof ]

[Rail]

Originally posted by Xyx:
<STRONG>How about: Characters at the cap, no magical equipment whatsoever, do all the preparation you like, huge dungeon for arena.

That would favor the mages...</STRONG>

Agreed! That would favor mages just a bit! Okay, you'd have to have no knowledge of spellcasting to loose this one.

On that same note, I'd like to see invisibility taken out of the fight. I don't like limiting what items you can use, because I like playing the game with it's current balance (or unbalance). However, Invisibility tends to make the matches boring. Here's what I mean:
Mage begin's casting Time Stop.
Fighter begins casting Prot from Magic scroll on mage.
Mage aborts spell and goes invisible.
Fighter casts True Sight from Book of Infinite Spells.
Mage begins Imprisonment spell.
Fighter down potion of invisibility.
Mage begins casting True Sight
Fighter attacks and somehow damages mage, interrupting spell in process.
Mage down invis. potion. and waite to regenerate to full HP before proceding to cast another spell that the fighter will just go invisible for.

It goes on and on and on and...

I like Hide in Shadows, cuz it's hard to abuse that, but anyone can have LOADS on invisibility potions in their inventory, and it could make any match VERY boring.

No invisibility would hurt thieves, but we thieves are resourceful. So go ahead and underestimate us.

[Kovi]

Just a bump and some new idea on a very old topic (much older than this thread).

With the Staff of Magi the mage/sorcerer or rogue (use any items in ToB) has an edge, as he can make invisible ANY time. A fighter or clearic can't go immediately invisible after using an item or enabling an ability, so there is a vulnerability gap.

Even within invisibility, spellcasters/thiefs have an edge over warrirors, as they can use area effect spells. They can even summon creatures which see the invisible.

Still I totally agree that the extensive use of invsibility (especially with Staff of Magi and/or Cloak of Non-Detection) makes this a "no-game". The weaker character won't risk going visible and they will stand invisible all day.

[Xyx]

Originally posted by Kovi:
<STRONG>Even within invisibility, spellcasters/thiefs have an edge over warrirors, as they can use area effect spells.</STRONG>

Warriors can use Potion of Explosions if the spellcaster isn't protected from fire.

Originally posted by Kovi:
<STRONG>They can even summon creatures which see the invisible.</STRONG>

You mean Devas and Planetars? Are there other summons that see the invisible?

[Aegis]

@Xyx: A lot of summons see invisble characters. Joolon for one.

Hmm... My gem is still being brought up. It's probably one of the best references for Fighter and Mage techniques on the board though, so..

I think ToB stuff should be left out of this thread, for two good reasons. One, this is the SoA forum, and posting stuff from ToB in here is the same as posting spoilers. If this thread gets moved to ToB, then a new quation is opened. Second, The stuff from ToB is insanly uber-powerful, and can unbalance the game tremendously.

Now, against all these timestop, mindflayer spell things, here's my thoughts. What if a fighter had five stars in Longbow (Which I always do). When he saw the mage casting timestop, you could easily disrupt them with a single arrow (I usually have plenty of +1 arrows, and a bunch of fire arrows) That makes the mage useless with the high level spells. Now, here is where the actual strategy comes in. Why not, instead of loading up tons of high level one-shot kill spells, load a mage up with tons of low level annoyance spells. Spells like Magic Missle can be a bain on a fighters. It may not hit hard, but on average, your pelting him with about 15 damage/casting. It slows him down, and gives time for you to kick in some contingencies, and other such things. Or, why not load a sequencer up with 3 fireball spells? There is a lot of damage there, even if a save is made! It's a potential of 180 damage! Thats enough to kill almost anyone! On average, your probably going to be getting about 90 or so, but that's still damn good.

[UserUnfriendly]

Its all a question of mage disruption and equipment. the major advantage of a fighter high level in soa is all the nice equipment he she has, which can DUPLICATE' to a certain extent a spell. even better, in many cases. example...cloak of mirrors, spell turning. Belt of inertial barriors, prot from magic energy. etc.

so any mage can duplicate and exceed all the magic prot a warrior has, thus negating to a very high extent the edge the fighter has in weapondry.

The smae does not hold for the fighter. he/she must painfully aquirethe good loot to have parity with the mage in protections, and will never reach it. tha mage can make himslef invulnerable for a clash, no question. and the offensive weps are not too shabby, either. most battles will be settled by the trigger going off on 3 delay action fireballs, if the mage has but a good idea of where the fighter is, 3 inc clouds if you have no clue.

the fightrer has mage disruption. wiz slayers and assassins really rock in that regard, but arrows of biting, and a stock of plain mundane arrows will go thru prot from magic weps like scalpel thru buttermilk.

me? I play a class I made up...the shadow sorceror. I hack myslef twice the spells of a regular sorc per level, but allow no cont. or chains of any kind. makes your tactical planning and spell selection very interesting.

[King Leoric]

A mage can cast many spellswithout being interrupted with stoneskin, mirror image or mislead (a really great spell!)

[UserUnfriendly]

well, slight problem with mislead....we are talking about humans in multiplayer, not the computer ai. that is why mislead and mirror image on a computer opponent is pretty much useless to the skilled player. I always aim for the center of a mirror cluster, and once I know by the message board that the computer opponent has cast mislead, I ignore the decoy and fire up some area effect spells.

[Xyx]

Spell disruption is easily avoided... Mirror Image alone will catch weapons and elemental damages, and Potions of Explosion.

Mislead is tricky. Other players can see your presence on the screen whether invisible or not anyway, but their Fighter cannot target you with weapons. They can chuck Potions of Explosion at the ground near you, though.

Fireballs, Skull Traps and other damage spells are easily negated with the Cloak of Mirroring. It makes anyone totally invulnerable to spell damage, with the exception of Finger of Death (which, for some strange reason, is not qualified as a damage spell). The Cloak will (for some other strange reason) even bounce Power Word Kill.

I think that, invisibility and hiding games aside, a Mage's best bet is simply running up to the Fighter and casting a Robe of Vecna'd Imprisonment (which is instant). No save, no Magic Resistance, no Cloak of Mirroring, no Ring of Spell Turning (which casts Minor Spell Turning and only works on level 7 or lower spells). No need for Time Stops or preparations, as long as the Mage isn't disabled or killed before he reaches the Fighter (shouldn't be too hard).