Confusion about some weapon damages.

[Black_Paladin]

I am wondering about how to determine the damage of certain weapons. For instance, I got the flame tongue and the description says that it is a +4 weapon. Interestingly enough however, if you look at the damage, it says 1D8+2 and then an extra +2 ONLY for regenerating creatures, +3 vs ONLY cold/fire creatures and +4 vs ONLY undead.

So, if I understand this right, the weapon is actually nothing more than an +2 weapon against "normal" (if there is such a thing as normal in BG) enemies and it's +4 only and only against undead (and +3 against cold/fire and +2 against regenerating).

Now, this makes me wonder about what would happen if you were to fight Kangaxx with this weapon. Kangaxx is both undead AND regenerating and as a result, would this weapon count as a +7 weapon against Kangaxx (which would surely turn him to dust faster than he can blink). Or does the undead +4 damage override the regenerating damage and just makes the sword +4 against undead, no matter what?

What if you were to fight a regenerating cold/fire creature? What then?

There is more: Since the damage is described as +2 and then +something against undead, regenerating, etc., does the sword then perhaps hit as a +6 against undead (the +2 of the weapon against "normal" enemies combined with the +4 against undead)?

This question I have of course applies to several more weapons. For instance, I got Foebane + 3 and also daystar +2 and I can't decide which to use. On the one hand, foebane is +3 and it also gives + 6 against undead, demons and other things. On the other hand however, daystar, while +2, gives +4 vs evil creatures (and I think every single monster that I face is considered evil, no?) and plus does DOUBLE damage against undead.

In the end, I am baffled as to which weapon I should use for my off hand. I am a Kensai for the first time ever (I always play magic users but wanted something different this time). I got Celestial Fury +5 in my main hand (with the Item Upgrade mod) and consider this the best weapon my character can use by far. As in nothing even comes close (I have grandmastery in katanas, hehe), but for the life of me, I can't decide what to use for my off hand. Flame tongue, daystar and foebane all look great to me for an off-hand weapon but I wonder which would benefit me more overall. Currently, I have the Dak'kon Zerth blade in my off hand which is a very nice +2 katana with +1 armor bonus. Granted, this blade is best for kensai/mages but it works great for a pure kensai as well.

I have only a single point in long sword proficiency so far and therefore katanas give me a lot better thaco in my off hand but I am thinking that it might be better for me to have something that is maybe not so low in thaco in my off hand but gives nice elemental damages or bonus damages against certain creatures. Right now, my main hand thaco is -10 and my off hand thaco is -5 which means I can hit pretty much anything with both weapons. If I change the Dak'kon Zerth blade with a long sword though, my thaco drops down to -1 because of my lack of proficiency in lond swords. Foebane makes this even worse as it is a bastard sword (if foeband is worth keeping however, I will put proficiency points in bastard sword). Finally, I have 3 points in duel wielding.

What do you recommend for this lost soul?

[lompo]

You are making confusion between Enchantment, Thac0 bonus and dmb. bonus:
enchantments determine what you can hit, Tach0 modifier increase your chance of hitting something you "can" it and dmb increase dmg you deal when you hit something.
Flametongue has +4 enchantments (thus can hit anything that need a weapon higher than +3, i.e. Kangax), and is a base +1 sword with extra different Thac0 and dmg modifiers depending on the kind of foe you are fighting (the bonuses don't stack, you only get the higher), so against a goblin count as a + 1 sword;
Daystar has +2 enchantments (thus you can't hit Kangax with it, but with spell you can damage him), has Tach0 and dmg mod. of 2 vs. neutral/good foe and 4 vs. evil, plus does double dmg to undead;
Foebane is +3 enchantments, ahas +3 Thac0 and dmg mod. exept vs. demonts etc. against wich dmg mod. (only!!) is +6;
similar is the case of MoD +1 and +2, they have enchantments of +4 and +5, but their Tach0/dmg mod are +1 and +2.

As for the choice of weapon, if you have tactics mods installed, having CF you will soon meet somebody that will "offer" you your ideal off-hand Katana.
Daystar is nice to keep as secondary main-hand weapon (in the slot close to CF), this way you can still use the spell;
For the moment as off-hand weapon choose a weapon that grant some benefical effects to your char., being a kensai I would suggest the flail DoE, it gives you +1 AC plus 20% res. to fisical dmg that is not bad for somebody that can't wear armour.
Remember that is not your off-hand weapon the one that will deal the real dmg (it only hit once/rnd).

[Black_Paladin]

Ah, thank you very much for the reply! Much appreciated.

You are correct in that I have confused enchantment and damage bonuses. I did know that the benefit of Thac0 bonuses from weapons only helped to lower your Thac0 so you have a greater chance of hitting what you can hit (which I am not paying much attention to at the moment because even without any Thac0 enhancing items or weapons, my Thac0 is about -5, hehe) but I didn't even really know the difference between enchantments and damage bonuses!

Does this mean then the "+something" right next to the names of the items always refer to their enchantments? I mean flame tongue says +4 right next to its name so that is referring to the enchantment, right? Not all weapons have the enchantment number right next to their name though. Daystar for instace doesn't have a number right next to its name (when you look at the description below, it DOES say "always considered to be +2 for the things it can hit" specifically).

I guess the short of this is that the enchantment determines what a weapon can hit (Kangaxx, etc) and the damage bonuses do not have anything to do with what you can hit, right? You see, part of confusion was that I had thought that if a sword said +4 right next to its name, it would also say xDx+4 in its damage description. Seeing that flame tongue said only 1d8+2 in its damage description, I thought it was a +2 sword. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I understand now.

You having given this explanation raised another question for me though.
If enchantment is only important for deciding what you can hit, why are there any +5 and +6 items in the game? If I am not mistaken, you can hit everything in the game with +4 weapons, you can not? What I mean is that there is nothing in the game immune to +4 weapons which would make you require a +5 weapon. If I am correct in this however, is there even a reason for Ixil's spike (+6) or Carsomyr +6? What good are they and why would you want to use them as opposed to a nice +4 weapon that can hit everything and have some nice damage and thac0 (not as important as thac0 can be increased by several items other than weapons) bonuses?

For my off hand weapon, I realized that it's a tough call. With Dak'kon's Zerth blade, I get +1 to my armor class which is pretty beneficial (just like the Defender of Easthaven flail you mentioned) and with a thac0 of -5, I can hit most of the creatures that can be hit with an +2 weapon and the damage this weapon causes is 1d10+2 which I think is pretty darn nice, single attack per round or not. If I used something else in my off hand, it might give me some bonuses against damage, etc. but with 5 proficiency slots in katana and only 1 in long sword (for now), I am unlikely to hit anything as my Thac0 rises.

Alos, what thac0 do you think is sufficient for being able to hit most enemies (bosses excluded) in SoA and Watcher's Keep?

[Mirk]

+5 and +6 weapons are requred for some ToB bosses, IIRC, and the spell "Abbsolute Immunity", which gives immunity to up to +5 weapons. Hence the +6 enchantement of some weapons in ToB.

There are no one-handed +6 weapons, only magically created-ones, like Melf's Minute Meteors, Energy blades, etc.

Now, how do you know the weapon's enchantment characteristic? You don't! Vanilla +X weapons are easy, but unique weapons don't show it, and you can never guess it. here's some examples:

Improved Mace of Disruption +2: +5 enchantment
Daystar +2, +4 vs. evil: +2 enchantement

A good way to test is to use the weapon on a mage having Mantle or Improved Mantle (protection vs. +3 and +4, respectievly).

Oh, and just to confuse you more , if a weapon has bonus to ToHit vs. certain creature type, or alignment, you get the bonus for all your attacks (with main weapon) even when the weapon is in the off-hand


Two other important characteristcs to consider when choosing a weapon are: effects on hit and elemental damage. elemental (fire, ice, etc.) is used to hit through stoneskined mages. the effects on hit are what makes the weapon really effective, as it usually makes your opponents less powerfull (stunned/slowed/levle drained/etc.), thus enabling you to kill them faster while getting hit less often. consider these effects very carefully, as this is not as straitforward as it looks (a good example here is FoA vs. Blackrazor, since when you think about it, Slow is MORE EFFECTIVE than level-drain!)


As to the ofh-hand weapon choice, all options discussed are solid. One other option to consider (my personal favorite) is extra-attack weapons: the extra attack is added to the MAIN HAND. thus, a katana-weilding kensai will be better off with CF and say Belm+2 than CF and Drakkon's Blade: he'll get another 1d10+3 attack + a chance to stun, AND 1d8+2 from the off-hand.

[Black_Paladin]

Originally posted by Mirk
+5 and +6 weapons are requred for some ToB bosses, IIRC, and the spell "Abbsolute Immunity", which gives immunity to up to +5 weapons. Hence the +6 enchantement of some weapons in ToB.

Hmmm, interesting stuff! I'll see what the ToB bosses are like when I finish SoA I guess but for now, I seem to be able to hack through *anything* with my Celestial Fury +5 (I just LOVE this weapon). I just wish that they hadn't changed the color of the weapon from the beautiful red to blue when you upgrade it. I wonder if there is a way to get the old look back (I like the new item description, just not the new color)?

Originally posted by Mirk
There are no one-handed +6 weapons, only magically created-ones, like Melf's Minute Meteors, Energy blades, etc.

Hmmm, sounds like mages are better suited to handle this absolute immunity spell than fighters then, eh?

Originally posted by Mirk
Now, how do you know the weapon's enchantment characteristic? You don't! Vanilla +X weapons are easy, but unique weapons don't show it, and you can never guess it. here's some examples:

Improved Mace of Disruption +2: +5 enchantment
Daystar +2, +4 vs. evil: +2 enchantement

A good way to test is to use the weapon on a mage having Mantle or Improved Mantle (protection vs. +3 and +4, respectievly).

Arrrrrghhh!!!! Now this blows! Why are players not allowed to know the enchantment levels for all items???!!!! It makes no sense to me. Besides, neither of my NPCs are high enough level to cast Mantle or Improved Mantle yet so there is no way for me to test! Grrrrr (Aerie actually knows the spell but she can't cast it yet).

Originally posted by Mirk
Oh, and just to confuse you more , if a weapon has bonus to ToHit vs. certain creature type, or alignment, you get the bonus for all your attacks (with main weapon) even when the weapon is in the off-hand

In which case, it seems like it should be a lot more beneficial to me to stick that +4 flame tongue with its bonus damages against them creatures to my off hand than that Dak'kon Zerth blade. After all, I am in the second level of Watcher's Keep where there are PLENTY fire/cold creatures (after all the level is composed of fire/cold/air/poison labs with their respective summons) and finally the flame tongue sounds invaluable against the demon in this level that can change its form (I pity the creature if it changes into its fire or cold forms!

Originally posted by Mirk
Two other important characteristcs to consider when choosing a weapon are: effects on hit and elemental damage. elemental (fire, ice, etc.) is used to hit through stoneskined mages. the effects on hit are what makes the weapon really effective, as it usually makes your opponents less powerfull (stunned/slowed/levle drained/etc.), thus enabling you to kill them faster while getting hit less often. consider these effects very carefully, as this is not as straitforward as it looks (a good example here is FoA vs. Blackrazor, since when you think about it, Slow is MORE EFFECTIVE than level-drain!)

Aye, I have to admit that I never considered the Flail of Ages to be such a good weapon before coming to this board. Slowly but surely, I am beginning to see the wisdom in the weapon choices people are making in this forum. Right now, Minsc and Boo are in charge of the Flail of Ages and they are kicking much butt with it (for GOODNESS of course!!!!) I even gave Minsc 2 proficiencies in Flail just becase of Flail of Ages.

Originally posted by Mirk
As to the ofh-hand weapon choice, all options discussed are solid. One other option to consider (my personal favorite) is extra-attack weapons: the extra attack is added to the MAIN HAND. thus, a katana-weilding kensai will be better off with CF and say Belm+2 than CF and Drakkon's Blade: he'll get another 1d10+3 attack + a chance to stun, AND 1d8+2 from the off-hand.

Hmmm, yet again I learn something new. I read MANY posts on this forum where people were saying Belm was such a great weapon but I thought that was silly as I didn't understand what was so great about an extra attack as opposed to having a bunch of elemantal damages, spell effects, etc. Now, from your explanation, I see that the advantage of Belm comes from the fact that it gives an extra attack to your MAIN hand (which really makes no sense whatsoever if you think about it) . I thought that it gave an extra attack to your off-hand where you only get a single attack per round with any other weapon.

It looks like I'll be selling that Dak'kon Zerth blade back to Deidre and put the Belm on my off hand. With Celestial Fury being such an **incredibly** powerful weapon (I can just about chunk *anything* that gets in my way with this weapon), an extra attack with it from the use of Belm should be like candy.

As a matter of fact, from what you explained, Celestial Fury + Belm seems like the best combo EVER.

UNFORTUNATELY, I have this problem where my attacks right now are 9/2 and from what I just read as a reply to another post I made, the maximum I ca n get without improved haste or greater whirlwind is 5. In this case, Belm would only give me half an attack.

[lompo]

The general rule for dual wielding is to have on your main-hand a weapon (for wich you have the maximum proficiency possible) that deals the max. damage and/or effects that reduce your opponent effectivness (slow, stun, lev. draining, elemental damage etc.): you choose katana and improved C.F. is a great choice.
For off-hand the choice is for something that add good effects either to your main weapon and/or to your defensive capabilities; you don't need to be master in those weapon (a single * is normaly enough) because you will hit omly once/rnd with that weapon (even when hasted): weapons that enhance the offensive capabilities are Belm/Kundane that add an extra attack to your main weapon and Crom that will increase your base damage; weapons that enhance your defensive skill are DoE for the Ac and damage resistance (don't discard that), Dackon for Ac and the extra spell (great for F/M), Equalizer for immunities to charm and confusion (very useful), blade of Balduran (magic resistance), Arbane (immune to hold), Axe of U. +3 (you can find in WK) for AC and high regeneration, MoD (immunity ti level drain).
Which to choose depends mostly on the rest of your equipement and on your class/style; having already 4,5 attacks/rnd means that an Belm/Kundane are not going to add too much (give them to Minsc that has FoA).
Having already a +5 weapon on your main hand means that Flametongue in off-hand wan't add any bonus.
Finally remember that weapon that can cast spells aloud you to cast them also if you are not equipping them, as long as you have them in your weapon slot: so is good to have Daystar (sunray), Ilbratha (mirror image) etc. in your weapon slot.

[lompo]

I'm also realizing that you have the item upgrade mod, thus you can get your hand on some very nasty weapons: either Pitchwife +5 (best for me) or Fulcrum +4 clubs are awesome, Daystar +4 is very good and also Water Talon (scimitar) is grat, plus you can get upgraded some of the NPC own weapon (all with enchantments of +4 or +5).
Also remember that resistance to slashing dmg is more common than res. to crushing (blunt weapons).

[Black_Paladin]

Lompo,

Thanks for your suggestions again. Right now, my Kensai has the Belt of the Inertial Barrier which gives 25% to missile damage and 50% to Magic Resistance, Boots of the Hornet which gives +5 AC against Missiles and Cloak of Displacement which gives another +4 AC against missiles (in my character info sheet, the missile AC is now showing a godly -9) so I am thinking about putting the Sword of Balduran like you said in my off hand for even better magic resistance. Like you said, Kundane or Belm won't do much since they would only give half an attack more. Perhaps I should just go with the Defender of Easthaven for damage resistance though.

For slashing vs. blunt resistance, when you say it's more common to find slashing resistance, do you mean that it's better to use slashing resistant equipment? Right now, Minsc has got the belt against crushing damage (gives +4 against crushing) and he also has the belt against piercing damage in reserve just in case but I haven't found the belt that gives against slashing damage yet. Where do I find that? At the moment, Mincs has -4 to crushing damage and -3 to slashing damage. He is also my only tank (I am the kamikaze). I can charge and slash without worrying about missile weapons and Minsc can hold an enemy while soaking the damage. One tactic that works well for me is to send Minsc in first with his armor class of -10 and start taking fire, send my Kensai right after him and start picking off the guys attacking Minsc (that way they are not attacking me and even if they switch from Minsc to me, I can manevour my guy really fast with the Boots of the Hornet. I got Mazzy with the Tuigan bow and Firetooth for support at the back with Aerie using Sling of Seeking +2 and Gauntlets of Ogre power (hey it's only fitting since she WAS an Ogre in the Circus! ) and Kelsey is toting the Sling of Everard.

I got some better tactics involving Minsc and me. One is to give both me and Minsc Free Action with Aerie, use web with Kelsey (or use the web device I got from Nai'Pa) and go into the web to slaughther the opposition. The Kithix and spider spawns also help here.

Another tactic is to equip Minsc with elemental resistant stuff so that he has 100% lightning resistance and 90% fire resistance and charge him in while unloading fireballs and lightning bolts on the targets. In the case of ligthning bolts, I can send in Jaheira in to the fight easily as well because with her Harper Pin and Citadel Helmet, she has 127% resistance to lightning (max) which means that she gets healed with lightning! In these last scenarious however, I have to sit back and watch. I wish had equipment I could wear to make me immune to lightning or fire as well. Oh well, can't have everything I guess.

[lompo]

Originally posted by Black_Paladin


For slashing vs. blunt resistance, when you say it's more common to find slashing resistance,

I was referring to the fact that enemies tond to have resistance to slashing mor frequently than to crushing (actually I think that nobody has resistance to crushing weapon), so with blunt weapon you will always do dmg.

[/b][/QUOTE]
I haven't found the belt that gives against slashing damage yet. Where do I find that? [/b][/QUOTE]

You can get it if you are a mage, its a reward of the mage stronghold.

Straight kensai are damage dealing machines but are very vulnerable (not many option of using protective gear), thats way usually is better to dual a kensai, so you have the kensai bonus and you can wear something.

[Iyke]

CF+5 is indeed a wonderful weapon. Avoid the other weapon upgrades from that mod, as they are overpowered.

Sanchudoku is a katana mentioned earlier which is also overpowered, but comes with its own fantastic lore and cult status. Well worth seeing, and youll just LOVE the struggle to get hold of it

however - as you have already upgraded Celestial Fury to the +5 version, you may never trigger this quest.

[Black_Paladin]

Originally posted by lompo I was referring to the fact that enemies tond to have resistance to slashing mor frequently than to crushing (actually I think that nobody has resistance to crushing weapon), so with blunt weapon you will always do dmg.

Hehe, Minsc is indeed doing pretty good with the Flail of Ages +3 (crushing damage) and I let my Kensai do the slashing damage.

Originally posted by lompo Straight kensai are damage dealing machines but are very vulnerable (not many option of using protective gear), thats way usually is better to dual a kensai, so you have the kensai bonus and you can wear something.

With boots of the Hornet, I found out that not having armor is not that bad for a Kensai. I can send Minsc and Jaheira (she actually proved to be a much better tank than Minsc believe it or not!!!) and while the enemies target them, my Kensai suddenly comes out of nowhere and slashes all the enemies to pieces before they can understand what is happening. At the moment, my main hand Thac0 is -14 and my off-hand is -8. With the Celestial Fury +5, there is practically NOTHING that gets away unscathed from my blade

[Black_Paladin]

Originally posted by Iyke
CF+5 is indeed a wonderful weapon. Avoid the other weapon upgrades from that mod, as they are overpowered.

Sanchudoku is a katana mentioned earlier which is also overpowered, but comes with its own fantastic lore and cult status. Well worth seeing, and youll just LOVE the struggle to get hold of it

however - as you have already upgraded Celestial Fury to the +5 version, you may never trigger this quest.

The Sanchudoku is coming from the tactics mod, right? I am not using the tactics mod right now. I don't really like the this mod and I also find it a bit ridiculous. I had it installed earlier and I thought that the only things it added to the game were mages that fire 58 defensive spells with contingencies as soon as you enter an area (surveilance cameras installed in all areas? )and monsters that you meet in later parts of the game placed into the earlier areas. I was able to get through pretty much everything with enough melee power and mage disabling spells like Insect Plague but I found the game tasteless with having to do the same exact things to every enemy.

For the other upgrades from the Item Upgrade mod, I don't think I even need anything more powerful. Moreover, I can't imagine what weapon I could possibly have better than Celestial Fury +5. With 4.5 natural attacks (without haste) and grandmastery in Katana, with the Celestial Fury the stun ability kicks in REAL fast against any enemy.

Heck, let me tell you what I did about half an hour ago.

SPOILER









I went into the Gityanki compound in Watcher's Keep (on the level where the machine of the Lum The Mad is) and took on the Demi-lich (just like Kangaxx) without any protections. I hasted my characters and charged into the guy and when the stun ability of Celestial Fury kicked in, he wasn't able to imprison anyone. With Minsc and Jaheira, I basically bashed the skull to death without him damaging us!

This being the scenario, I can't see what could be more powerful than Celestial Fury +5. This weapon is too overpowered as it is!

[araknid70]

i didn't install the tactics mod, but i got sanchuudoku, even when cf was at +5. not sure what triggers it. but kuroisan (means mr. black or black mountain in japanese, not sure if its intended or not) is a lousy prick...... with absolutely irritating abilities. I cast haste and ran all over the place waiting for his protections to expire.