Is Cheating OK?

Rodion Raskolnikov · Post by **Rodion Raskolnikov** » Sun Nov 19, 2000 2:53 pm

What do you think about cheating (create items, altering ability scores etc.)? Personally I did it after having played BG1 for a long time, but I found that it totally ruined the game by making it unchallenging. I think it's okay if you have obtained an item previously but seem to have misplaced it to create that particular item but apart from that - no.

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Cloud · Post by **Cloud** » Sun Nov 19, 2000 3:28 pm

i think that cheating can be a fun way to extend a games life. However it can also greatly reduce the enjoyment and fun of a game. I have completed bg2 and it not cheat at all but i may have a mess around with the exp cap remover and creating objects etc at a later date. After i have finished my second time through at least.

At the end of the day it is up to you, if you enjoy messing about with stats and stuff or you just want a laugh then go for it but I think you have to be careful not to completly destroy the fun factor of a game by ruining it, such as maxing out a characters exp with a cheat before you even start the game, thus removing all character progesssion and development from the game

Odin · Post by **Odin** » Sun Nov 19, 2000 3:42 pm

Its just as Cloud said, up to you. But I have some problems cheating, because...im cheating. So wether im gonna use it or not Im not sure of. Ill have to think a bit on that one.
But as for plain cheating like adding items and such, im not evene thinking of. I think it would ruin the game. you get very powerfull, but then you have to ask yourself, was this ment to happen?
If it where then Bioware would have made the game that way. There is always possible to finish a game without cheating, and if you do you say: im not a good enough player, and I have to cheat to do it.

Thats what I meen...

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"In the beginning Bioware created heaven and earth. The earth was without form and empty, with darkness on the face of the depths. But Bioware's spirit moved on the water's surface. Bioware said: 'there shall be gameplay', and gameplay came into existence. Bioware saw that the gameplay was good..."

Odin · Post by **Odin** » Sun Nov 19, 2000 3:55 pm

Hmmm I missed out the word exp cap there. In my first point. Its the exp cap remover Im refering too. For the record

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"In the beginning Bioware created heaven and earth. The earth was without form and empty, with darkness on the face of the depths. But Bioware's spirit moved on the water's surface. Bioware said: 'there shall be gameplay', and gameplay came into existence. Bioware saw that the gameplay was good..."

Hazim ibn Gorion · Post by **Hazim ibn Gorion** » Sun Nov 19, 2000 10:32 pm

Personally, I don't think removing the XP cap is cheating. You're just earning points for actions you should rightly receive points for.

But then there are different levels of stringency for the definition of "cheating." I knew a guy who refused to restart BG1 unless his main PC got snuffed. Anyone else dead in a tough battle had to be resurrected or (if resurrection was impossible) replaced. This applied to unexpected encounters, failed pocket picks, the works. I respect his sense of "realism," but I don't think I could ever get that extreme about it.

Chris Boney · Post by **Chris Boney** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 3:29 am

Cheating is ok when you do it to get more fun in the game. But some people are proud of their cheated characters, and those are who I really think who got a problem.

Chris (excuse my bad english please)

Sourced · Post by **Sourced** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 3:36 am

I finished BG1 and BG2 without cheating. I've just started on my second run through BG2. It's kinda frustrating that you lose all your hard earned equipment at the beginning, so i cheated them back (reinported my char).

I always found sequels beginning with: "You just lost al your equipment" kinda lame. (Apart from that BG2 is still an excellent game).

Odin · Post by **Odin** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 4:15 am

I think that the first time you play it, you should not cheat at all, nor using the cap remover. To see how good you are. However, the second time around it could be fun using the remover to see how powerfull you could get. Because you probobly allready know where everything are anyway, how to fight the bad guys etc.... The second time would also be a much quicker game.

But Hazim, even using the remover is cheating, and you know it. Everything that isnt put there by Bioware is cheating, unless its a bug fixer or something lakie that.
And no, the remover is not a bug fixer...

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"In the beginning Bioware created heaven and earth. The earth was without form and empty, with darkness on the face of the depths. But Bioware's spirit moved on the water's surface. Bioware said: 'there shall be gameplay', and gameplay came into existence. Bioware saw that the gameplay was good..."

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 6:03 am

Hey, Odin

"If it where then Bioware would have made the game that way."

But they made it that way, didn't they? I mean, the CLUAConsole didn't suddenly find it's way into the game by Godly intervention or something after it was completed, right? The folks of BI programmed the console into it, so the game is made that way.

But I get the point of what you were trying to say.

As for me, I always try to finish games first WITHOUT cheating. Unless, like mentioned above, something happens (losing an item, etc..) totally out of your control (computer crash?).

After finishing it once, I always like to see what the possibilities really are. What's the potential you can achieve by messing around with some of the data of a game? What did the creators want to do?? For example, the rules.ini file you can extract for Red Alert (I & II) or Tiberian Sun, and edit it to your liking. Inside those files are usually also commentaries of the people who created it, notes on work, and such ... that actually were for internal development use only. It's kinda nice to see what they tried, and what worked/didn't work.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 6:29 am

It's fine by me, we had this conversation once before and like Maurice says it is okay if you have a decent reason or have finished the game

Memnoch · Post by **Memnoch** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 7:51 am

Cheating completely depends on the individual. It's your game, you create the rules. If playing a superpower character that can mow everyone in the game down is your thing then do it! If you enjoy the challenge of coming up with strategy to beat powerful foes then don't. Enjoy it the way you want to, and don't let anyone tell you how to best enjoy the game.

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My name is Memnoch...Memnoch the Devil. I have been waiting for you for a VERY long time...

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 8:08 am

Say, everyone always thinks of cheating of gaining unfair advantage over whoever you're playing with (computer, girlfriend(s), parents ...

), and I think this is the common variety of cheating.

But there's an opposite to this coin: how about cheating to make a game HARDER? I admit, you don't see this often, but I know it happens sometimes ...

Do you consider such inverse-cheating the same way?

Hazim ibn Gorion · Post by **Hazim ibn Gorion** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 10:33 am

Odin's signature line signals to me that he thinks Bioware is without fault. But, even though I love BG2 (maybe my favorite game ever), I'm a bit annoyed by the way they fiddled with the rules to make things convenient, and the XP cap is but one example of this. Two more:

The kensai kit is very different from how it appears in the PHB. A PnP kensai is more like a monk. His AC is supposed to decrease gradually as he gains in levels. Also, and here's the kicker, he's supposed to be unreliant on magic. He's not supposed to be able to use magic weapons, because he considers them cheating. Instead, he gets thac0 bonuses over time that allow his non-magical weapon to hit creatures that can only be hit by +whatever. In short, to dual a kensai into a mage is just plain incorrect...except that Bioware changed the kit so that he seems specificially designed to be dualed to mage. And the kensai/mage fad goes on and on...

There are NPCs who's very make-up is against the rules. Jan uses all kinds of stuff a thief/mage shouldn't be able to use. And Anomen's wisdom is nowhere near what it should be to be able to dual class from a fighter to a cleric. What gives?

So, as for the XP cap, just because Bioware says it should be so doesn't mean it should be so. I consider a design flaw of the game, and removing it is just like downloading a patch to remove a bug.

my $0.02

bullions27 · Post by **bullions27** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 10:36 am

Personally removing the xp cap is cheating. The game was structured around a certain set of levels and being able to go beyond that is like saying you're 25 yr old competing in a 10-15 yr old competition. Bad analogy but you get the gist.

Hazim ibn Gorion · Post by **Hazim ibn Gorion** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 9:34 pm

I understand what you're saying, but I still don't buy it. The game is also structured with the opportunities to earn more XP than the cap allows. Players willing to explore every nook and cranny and do every quest they can find should be rewarded for that, not shoehorned in to the deadend design for lazier folk.

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 4:09 am

The fact that cars can reach speeds up to 200 miles an hour doesn't mean they SHOULD reach those speeds ...

But I sort of agree with you. It's is *VERY* lame that almost every spellcaster you encounter can cast a plethora of level-9 spells, while your wizards will never be able to, because they lack 50.000 POINTS!!

How many level-9 would a wizard get if he could only gain ONE additional level? One? Two?? So what!! He then has to carefully decide not only WHICH spell to memorize, but also WHEN to use it best. He can't become a chaingun-of-level-9-spells with this, anyway. This is just FRUSTRATING!

Phew ... blew off some steam here ...

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 6:54 am

Explain to me why you want these LVL 9's so badly, i can appreciate timestop, but name some of the others you are annoied at not having.

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 7:07 am

It doesn't really matter for the actual spells, it's just the whole idea behind it.

I mean, they give you scrolls of those spells, usually only 1 for every level 9 spell in the game. So you can choose: Do I write them in my book, so I *might* be able to use them in possible expansion(s)?? Or do I cast them from the scroll, thereby ruining any chance of ever getting it again in this game??

They show you candy, but place it just out of your reach. That's what bugs me.

I should have to check the spell list for what spells are contained in level 9, I don't have the booklet (or game) here at my disposal.

[This message has been edited by Maurice (edited 11-21-2000).]

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 7:44 am

You make a good point, i don't know why they would do such a conceited thing, it doesn't make any sense

[This message has been edited by Mr Sleep (edited 11-21-2000).]

Hazim ibn Gorion · Post by **Hazim ibn Gorion** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 7:53 am

uuuhh...how 'bout "Black Blade of Disaster," "Chain Contingency," "Gate," "Spellstrike," "Spell Trap." Call me nutty, but I'm a'thinkin' these are some pretty handy bits of magery.