.
just checked the in-game help:
the effect of improved critical and keen shouldn't stack !
...heard in this forum that it does stack...
hmmm...-...little confused now...
...can anybody please confirm that it definetly stacks !
...is this a bug or just a scrappy documentation ?
.
improved critical and keen ?
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silverdragon72
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silverdragon72
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According to the pencil & paper rules, these should stack. Whether they do in the game is of course a different question since there are so many bugs present it wouldn't surprise me if this was bugged. I'll try to do some experimenting on it.
Note - for those not familiar with how the pencil&paper rules behave, it probably is worth explaining. Keen doubles the crit range and Improved Critical also doubles the crit range. So what happens when you have both? Does it quadruple? The answer is no. What happens is that they add. So if a weapon has a crit range of 1 (only on a 20), then keen or improved crit makes it score a threat on a 19-20. Having both extends the range by 1 more, so the crit range is then 18-20.
For weapons with a crit range of 19-20 (swords, xbows, etc), the range extends to 17-20 with one of those two, or 15-20 with both.
For weapons with a crit range of 18-20 (rapier, etc), the crit range extends to 15-20 with one, or 12-20 with both.
Note - for those not familiar with how the pencil&paper rules behave, it probably is worth explaining. Keen doubles the crit range and Improved Critical also doubles the crit range. So what happens when you have both? Does it quadruple? The answer is no. What happens is that they add. So if a weapon has a crit range of 1 (only on a 20), then keen or improved crit makes it score a threat on a 19-20. Having both extends the range by 1 more, so the crit range is then 18-20.
For weapons with a crit range of 19-20 (swords, xbows, etc), the range extends to 17-20 with one of those two, or 15-20 with both.
For weapons with a crit range of 18-20 (rapier, etc), the crit range extends to 15-20 with one, or 12-20 with both.
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silverdragon72
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- Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:53 am
- Contact:
improved critical & keen ?
Hi to both silverdragon72 & Kalendraf
According to the TOEE manual, the in-game help AND the 3.5 PHB/DMG rulebook, Improved Critical feat & Keen effects should NOT stack.
Kalendraf:
The description for the Improved Critical feat, page 95 in PHB say:
....This effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell).
The description for the Keen Edge spell, page 246 in PHB say:
....Multiple effects that increase a weapon's threat range (such as the keen edge spell and the Improved Critical feat) don't stack.
The description for the Keen enchantment, page 225 in DMG say:
....This benefit doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell and the Improved Critical feat).
So if they don't stack that is way it's supposed to be, and if they DO stack that's the bug.
If anyone could actually confirm how TOEE implements this it would be nice, since Improved Critical is a wasted feat if you use a wizard to make Keen weapons.
I vagualy remember that they stack (from my first game) but i am no longer sure. Now i only take Imp. Crit. for Scather/Fragarach and make Keen weapons for the rest of my group.
Glad to shed some light
Hi to both silverdragon72 & Kalendraf
According to the TOEE manual, the in-game help AND the 3.5 PHB/DMG rulebook, Improved Critical feat & Keen effects should NOT stack.
Kalendraf:
Here you have listed the general rules for stacking, but the 3.5 PHB rulebook says different.According to the pencil & paper rules, these should stack. Whether they do in the game is of course a different question since there are so many bugs present it wouldn't surprise me if this was bugged. I'll try to do some experimenting on it.
Note - for those not familiar with how the pencil&paper rules behave, it probably is worth explaining. Keen doubles the crit range and Improved Critical also doubles the crit range. So what happens when you have both? Does it quadruple? The answer is no. What happens is that they add. So if a weapon has a crit range of 1 (only on a 20), then keen or improved crit makes it score a threat on a 19-20. Having both extends the range by 1 more, so the crit range is then 18-20.
For weapons with a crit range of 19-20 (swords, xbows, etc), the range extends to 17-20 with one of those two, or 15-20 with both.
For weapons with a crit range of 18-20 (rapier, etc), the crit range extends to 15-20 with one, or 12-20 with both.
The description for the Improved Critical feat, page 95 in PHB say:
....This effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell).
The description for the Keen Edge spell, page 246 in PHB say:
....Multiple effects that increase a weapon's threat range (such as the keen edge spell and the Improved Critical feat) don't stack.
The description for the Keen enchantment, page 225 in DMG say:
....This benefit doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell and the Improved Critical feat).
So if they don't stack that is way it's supposed to be, and if they DO stack that's the bug.
If anyone could actually confirm how TOEE implements this it would be nice, since Improved Critical is a wasted feat if you use a wizard to make Keen weapons.
I vagualy remember that they stack (from my first game) but i am no longer sure. Now i only take Imp. Crit. for Scather/Fragarach and make Keen weapons for the rest of my group.
Glad to shed some light
Oh, When all else fail, put the Dwarf up front!Mulligan,
I just confirmed that you are correct. I was unaware of this change. Back in 3rd edition, these did stack, and I didn't know they changed this for 3.5. BTW, a lot of people house rule this to function as it did back in 3rd edition where they stacked, and even some of the designers like Sean K Reynolds have written articles about why it should stack. It's not unbalancing to allow them to stack. Turns out that if you don't let them stack, then the wide crit range weapons like rapiers and scimitars are poor investments.
Back to ToEE. I just did some testing and have verified that Keen Edge does stack with Improved Critical. I had 2 characters with swords (one a bastard sword, one a great sword) and saw them both score crits on 15-20, but not on rolls below that.
So it looks like ToEE is using the old 3rd ed rules here. Looks to me like a lot of the early development on ToEE happened with the 3rd ed rules, and they got burned by some of the changes. For now, just consider it like ToEE has a house rule and live with it.
I just confirmed that you are correct. I was unaware of this change. Back in 3rd edition, these did stack, and I didn't know they changed this for 3.5. BTW, a lot of people house rule this to function as it did back in 3rd edition where they stacked, and even some of the designers like Sean K Reynolds have written articles about why it should stack. It's not unbalancing to allow them to stack. Turns out that if you don't let them stack, then the wide crit range weapons like rapiers and scimitars are poor investments.
Back to ToEE. I just did some testing and have verified that Keen Edge does stack with Improved Critical. I had 2 characters with swords (one a bastard sword, one a great sword) and saw them both score crits on 15-20, but not on rolls below that.
So it looks like ToEE is using the old 3rd ed rules here. Looks to me like a lot of the early development on ToEE happened with the 3rd ed rules, and they got burned by some of the changes. For now, just consider it like ToEE has a house rule and live with it.
Thanks Kalendraf
I guess this is a bug i can live with, so for now i too will call it a house rule.
I think threating a crit on a 12 is a bit strong in Pnp games but i like to build powerful PC's in CRPG's. After all it's only me against a PC DM that don't show any mercy.
Great to know they stack for future character developments, now it's gonna be hard not to chose the crit. feat.
Thank you for replying back so soon.
Onwards, for victory
I guess this is a bug i can live with, so for now i too will call it a house rule.
I think threating a crit on a 12 is a bit strong in Pnp games but i like to build powerful PC's in CRPG's. After all it's only me against a PC DM that don't show any mercy.
Great to know they stack for future character developments, now it's gonna be hard not to chose the crit. feat.
Thank you for replying back so soon.
Onwards, for victory
Oh, When all else fail, put the Dwarf up front!There's only a few weapons with the 18-20 base crit range, and each of them has a smaller than usual die size for their weapon category. For example, the rapier is a medium weapon, but only does a d6 while most other weapons of this size do a d8. So you wind up paying a penalty on the base damage you deal just for the increased chance to deal double damage (2d6 + bonuses). Meanwhile, the other weapons land a few less crits, but when they do, they pack an even bigger punch (2d8 + bonuses).
Also, the wider crit ranges can be wasted, since rolling a threat doesn't mean it even scores a hit. For example, if the monster has an AC of 25, and you roll a 12 and have +12 on your roll due to other bonuses, that's only a 24. Sure it's a threat with keen & improved crit, but it's still a miss. So at a certain point, the wider crit ranges become useless.
Also, the wider crit ranges can be wasted, since rolling a threat doesn't mean it even scores a hit. For example, if the monster has an AC of 25, and you roll a 12 and have +12 on your roll due to other bonuses, that's only a 24. Sure it's a threat with keen & improved crit, but it's still a miss. So at a certain point, the wider crit ranges become useless.
I agree with you again, but there are three extremely powerful normal weapons in the game, the 3 Great Cleavers.
They start as +1 weapons, counts as Hand Axe for Wpn:focus purposes, wielded one handed and has 1d10 dmg, threat 17-20 x3.
According to your above post Keen should make them threat at 13-20 and Improved Crit:Hand Axe make them threat at 9-20.
BTW they CAN be enchanted with keen, already done that.
Threating a crit at 9-20 is over 50 %, and in the hands of a rouge this is way too powerful IMO. I made a rouge3/ftr7 just to exploit this weapon and its awesome .
My favorite Great Cleaver is now +3, holy, axiomatic, icy burst, shocking and is by far the weapon that deals the most damage, much better than the Scather/Fragarach swords except for the "always hit" part.
My rouge has a normal light hand axe, (similary enchanted) in the off-hand. Imagine utilizing all 3 Cleavers ? True powergaming IMO.
While flanking you will hit most of the time.
Just a thought...
Have Fun
They start as +1 weapons, counts as Hand Axe for Wpn:focus purposes, wielded one handed and has 1d10 dmg, threat 17-20 x3.
According to your above post Keen should make them threat at 13-20 and Improved Crit:Hand Axe make them threat at 9-20.
BTW they CAN be enchanted with keen, already done that.
Threating a crit at 9-20 is over 50 %, and in the hands of a rouge this is way too powerful IMO. I made a rouge3/ftr7 just to exploit this weapon and its awesome
.My favorite Great Cleaver is now +3, holy, axiomatic, icy burst, shocking and is by far the weapon that deals the most damage, much better than the Scather/Fragarach swords except for the "always hit" part.
My rouge has a normal light hand axe, (similary enchanted) in the off-hand. Imagine utilizing all 3 Cleavers ? True powergaming IMO.
While flanking you will hit most of the time.
Just a thought...
Have Fun
Oh, When all else fail, put the Dwarf up front!Originally posted by Mulligan
I agree with you again, but there are three extremely powerful normal weapons in the game, the 3 Great Cleavers.
/B]
In game terms, yes, stacking Improved Critical with Keen on the Great Cleavers seems pretty broken. I was looking at it from a 3.5 game rules basis where there isn't a weapon even comparable to the broken great cleaver.
A 1-hand weapon that does a d10? Well to get that, you need to burn a feat on exotic weapon(bastard sword).
A weapon with a base 17-20 crit range? Nothing even close, and the few that are have much smaller damage dice. I'd bet that something with that wide of a crit range would only deal about 1d3 damage in order to be balanced. IIRC, the kukri is 1d4 w/ 18-20, so I could see a 1d3 with 17-20.
Put them together, and it's more than sick. It's an item that simply won't exist in other normal 3.5 ed games. If you ignore the obviously broken great cleaver, then the analysis on stacking improved critical & keen is valid.
I have never tried to upgrade the enchantment on that weapon. I have an extra cleaver in someones inventory, so even if Fruella won't give me hers, I can probably get the other one enchanted and then hand it to her to use. FYI, my 3 main melee characters are using Bastard Sword, Great Sword and then fruella with her great cleaver. Sure, she's a nag, but my character did marry her, so I'm going to stick it out.
Hi again
Sure, the Great Cleavers is somewhat broken...
But, if you marry Fruella early and take care of her XP (monitoring her xp for maximum gain) she will be a strong figther late-game.
The problem with Fruella is that she starts with the Great Cleaver (only 3 in the game, can't be bought) but she has Weapon Focus: Battle Axe - and won't ever take Hand Axe feats.
So either She's bugged or the Cleaver is bugged, i dont't know.
The Great Cleaver count's as Hand Axe, i.e 2-wpn-fighting with this weapon in the hands of a Ftr or Finesse User is extremely powerful, as thy only need tofocus in one weapon
BTW Finesse works as Hand Axes for G. Cleavers in my game.
I read somewhere (Atari's or Co8's or here) , that future patches/mods would reduce the damage for the G. Cleavers to 1d6.
This would IMO be appropiate, but the threat range is still sick.
Sick, but extremely fun to abuse !
As for my rouge the difference of 1d6 or 1d10 doesn't really matter, it's all about sneak dmg and enchantment dmg.
Also, i've erad somwhere that G. Cleaver is supposed to be a Battle Axe. If it will be in the future, it's sure another reason to take Fruella as a Npc.
As Always
Sure, the Great Cleavers is somewhat broken...
But, if you marry Fruella early and take care of her XP (monitoring her xp for maximum gain) she will be a strong figther late-game.
The problem with Fruella is that she starts with the Great Cleaver (only 3 in the game, can't be bought) but she has Weapon Focus: Battle Axe - and won't ever take Hand Axe feats.
So either She's bugged or the Cleaver is bugged, i dont't know.
The Great Cleaver count's as Hand Axe, i.e 2-wpn-fighting with this weapon in the hands of a Ftr or Finesse User is extremely powerful, as thy only need tofocus in one weapon
BTW Finesse works as Hand Axes for G. Cleavers in my game.
I read somewhere (Atari's or Co8's or here) , that future patches/mods would reduce the damage for the G. Cleavers to 1d6.
This would IMO be appropiate, but the threat range is still sick.
Sick, but extremely fun to abuse !
As for my rouge the difference of 1d6 or 1d10 doesn't really matter, it's all about sneak dmg and enchantment dmg.
Also, i've erad somwhere that G. Cleaver is supposed to be a Battle Axe. If it will be in the future, it's sure another reason to take Fruella as a Npc.
As Always
Oh, When all else fail, put the Dwarf up front!