I've played around a LOT with hybrid classes (other than prestiges) and I have to say, the game treats them like brutal rejects.
I've played a Wizard/Shadowdancer, Sorcerer/Rogue, Paladin/rogue, and a successful Fighter/Sorcerer, Fighter/Rogue/Shadowdancer and I'm working on a Fighter/Bard/Weapon Master.. I've gotten a good grip on how to multiclass effectively, if you want to mix things up to keep the game going, but don't want to be left with something impotent.
One thing to remember while multiclassing is that you do not suddenly gain twice as many skills to use. In reality, you really only have half. If you are a fighter/rogue, then chances are you will only want to invest in 5 skills, not 10.. it is too easy to water down your skills by investing in everything. High intelligence and human racial bonus can expand that list slightly.
Rogue Cheese:
Reccomended Races: Human, Halfling, Half Elf, Dwarf (Fighter), Half Orc (barbarian)
This is probably the best class you can ever multiclass with, and typically with only 3 levels, because of how the skill cap behaves when compared to your overall level.
Very simply, you can do a few things: develop a 'minor' in 3 skills by level 8, or have a single full powered skill.
the Dungeoneer basically has you take Rogue for your 5th, 6th, and 7th levels. You can invest all skill points into the chosen skills, such as Search, Disarm Traps, Pick Locks, or whatever you find useful.
Alternately, at levels 5 (+int bonus) and ten levels thereafter can boost a single skill (tumble is a likely candidate for the armor boost)
Furthermore, with 3 levels of rogue, you develop +2d6 damage against enemies that are casting, knocked down, or not attacking you directly, Evasion (no damage on reflex save), and at a cost of -1 base attack when compared with 3 levels of Fighter.
Sorcerer
Reccomended Races: Human, Halfling, Dwarf (fighter), Half Orc (barbarian), Elf (as Fighter/Wizard, similiar principle), Gnome (as fighter/Illusionist)
This is the most difficult class to multiclass as if you are going melee. I suggest sorcerer over wizard if you want arcane spells because you will be less potent to begin with, you may as well have extra spells/day to make up for it.
This usually doesn't have significant conflicts with ranged-based characers, but the traditional, long standing problem is when you want to mix it with a melee class, like Fighter. This paradox of the fighter/wizard dates back to Gygax, and is probably the most crippled hybrid that has ever existed.
However, it doesn't have to be like that anymore. If you want to multiclass as a Sorcerer, plan on taking at least ten levels since a lot of spells cap damage at 10. If you have HotU you are lucky, take 12 levels of fighter -before- you hit level 21, and you should be okay with your base attack bonus (3-4 attacks base).
Spells that should interest you the most are typically Defensive Spells, and NO SUMMONS. Don't bring a boar to Morag, she will beat you up for being stupid. Early on, these will be Shield and Mage Armor. Later on, seriously look at spells like True Strike, Stoneskin, elemental defensives, Cats Grace, etc. Offensively, a lot of the fire spells work great, like Firebrand and Combust, for instance. The ONE spell you WILL want is Flaming Weapon. This will make a man out of your warrior, and open many a chest.
Okay, now the conundrum.. This hybrid doesn't like armor, obviously. Early on, you will want medium/light armor.. a chain shirt will do. This is not a strength-based warrior. This isn't a charisma based caster (in fact, you will never have more than 16 base charisma).. this is a dexterity based fighter. Once you have enough in Charisma, boost your dexterity with bracers, belts.. everything you can get your hands on. This will keep you safe, and later on you will want to be wearing not more than 'bits of cloth +x" so your spells don't get interrupted. Your spells will make up for the rest, and Expertise can help, as well as cross-skilling into Tumble.
Weapon wise, stay away from shields if possible, and go two hander or dual wield (exotic two handed weapon, or finesse with two light weapons). In combat, take advantage of the Combat Casting mode so you can cast in melee effectively (concentration is a must-have skill).
Bard
This is more a mix between a rogue and sorcerer hybrid, and you should plan on taking around 11 levels of this class if you seriously want to benefit from it.
Generally, you will probably not work with much heavier than a chain shirt, and you may want to either go two hander, dual wield, or simply a single handed weapon with no shield. You have room to play, such as hide/studded armor + small shield may yield better bonuses.
Pick 2 skills you want to work with.. the third, obviously, will be perform. Typically, Tumble makes a good choice for the extra armor to make up for the fact that you won't be casting anything in plate, and it's a class-friendly skill ^_^.
The only main draw from this class is in the bards song, and limited spellcasting ability. Generally, you won't be relying on heals, as much as defensive spells like Mage Armor, and, later, Iron Horn still gives a good kick. Feat Wise, if you aren't building to a prestige class (in my case, weapon master), take a look at feats like extra songs, lingering song, and Curse song. Iron Horn and a lingering Curse song I fully expect to be a really good 1-2 combination.
Multiclassing
Perhaps you haven't been doing it properly? You don't have to take large levels of both classes. For example: Sorc 37/Pally 3. You take the Paladin levels for the hige bonuses from divine shield etc. Or Druid 9/Monk 1/Shifter 30. You take monk for the WIS bonus to AC.
Though it is true that hybrid characters are treated a lot worse then prestige classes, you can still make a better build by using things in common (like two classes that use CHA).
Though it is true that hybrid characters are treated a lot worse then prestige classes, you can still make a better build by using things in common (like two classes that use CHA).
"Heya! Have you been to Baldur's Gate? I've been to Baldur's Gate... Oops, stepped into something. Have you stepped into something?"
True, but I wanted to address some more unconventional hybrids, rather than one level wonders like the paladin or monk..
I have found one completely unsuccesful hybrid in the wizard/sorcerer. That was a waste of time.
I honestly don't think that Prestige classes are any better than the normal classes.. the benefits they recieve are minimal, albeit unique, and can detract from the potency of your main class (eg, sorcerer/dragon disciple). The only prestige class that I ever found useful was the Shadow Dancer, and that was for Hide in Plain Sight. I rarely ever used shapeshifting with my druid (suddenly, equipment becomes useless), I rarely see much benefit from my Weapon master abilities, and the Dragon Disciple is not entirely worth delaying Time Stop or Epic spells (works okay for melee bards, perhaps).
I haven't touched the assassin, arcane archer, dwarven defender, or Palemaster, so I won't speak for them (I wonder.. sorcerer/wizard/palemaster..)
So far, my favorite has to be my Fighter/Sorcerer who can deal insane levels of melee damage in just a few rounds, and can hands down solo any pure caster or melee NPC yet encountered (and do it pre-30). My Fighter/Bard/Weapon Master is coming close, but i'm waiting to see epic with that one.
I have found one completely unsuccesful hybrid in the wizard/sorcerer. That was a waste of time.
I honestly don't think that Prestige classes are any better than the normal classes.. the benefits they recieve are minimal, albeit unique, and can detract from the potency of your main class (eg, sorcerer/dragon disciple). The only prestige class that I ever found useful was the Shadow Dancer, and that was for Hide in Plain Sight. I rarely ever used shapeshifting with my druid (suddenly, equipment becomes useless), I rarely see much benefit from my Weapon master abilities, and the Dragon Disciple is not entirely worth delaying Time Stop or Epic spells (works okay for melee bards, perhaps).
I haven't touched the assassin, arcane archer, dwarven defender, or Palemaster, so I won't speak for them (I wonder.. sorcerer/wizard/palemaster..)
So far, my favorite has to be my Fighter/Sorcerer who can deal insane levels of melee damage in just a few rounds, and can hands down solo any pure caster or melee NPC yet encountered (and do it pre-30). My Fighter/Bard/Weapon Master is coming close, but i'm waiting to see epic with that one.
Originally posted by D.Windsor
I honestly don't think that Prestige classes are any better than the normal classes.. the benefits they recieve are minimal, albeit unique, and can detract from the potency of your main class (eg, sorcerer/dragon disciple). The only prestige class that I ever found useful was the Shadow Dancer, and that was for Hide in Plain Sight. I rarely ever used shapeshifting with my druid (suddenly, equipment becomes useless), I rarely see much benefit from my Weapon master abilities, and the Dragon Disciple is not entirely worth delaying Time Stop or Epic spells (works okay for melee bards, perhaps).
I haven't touched the assassin, arcane archer, dwarven defender, or Palemaster, so I won't speak for them (I wonder.. sorcerer/wizard/palemaster..)
So far, my favorite has to be my Fighter/Sorcerer who can deal insane levels of melee damage in just a few rounds, and can hands down solo any pure caster or melee NPC yet encountered (and do it pre-30). My Fighter/Bard/Weapon Master is coming close, but i'm waiting to see epic with that one.
Obviously you haven't been using prestige classes properly. Post your Fighter-Sorc and I post a build that will decimate it. If it's about half-half I can't see how you can possibly use spells well and have a decent BAB. Most builds can easily beat the HOTU campaign easy solo.
I used to like Weapon Master but I soon found that its preequisites were too much and very annoying to meet. Go to the Bioware Forums and search up 'Puff' in the archives and you'll find a pretty good build (though it doesn't use the shifter class). Red Dragon Desciple is part of my posssibly most powerful build since it grants my character a devastating critical DC of 49, let's see your fighter/sorc make that save! And of course, I almost always for non-pvp build take ten levels of RDD just for the wings
. You can now also get items that grant HIPS making Shdow Dancer a lot less appealing. Arcane Archer is all about reliability as it has the highest enhancement bonus and BAB. A Shifter/Dwarvan Defender is extremly powerful because of the possibly huge damage reduction (21/-) and shapechanging abilities (turn into undead and be immune to criticals as well. Sorc/Wiz/Palemaster does NOT work, it's just a waste of time like Sorc/Wiz. Admittedly Palemaster caster tend to be weaker then pure, but they can still cast 9 level and epic spells and summon a lesser demilich (sure it's weak, but it's a DEMILICH).IMHO Prestige classes are FAR stronger then basic classes for multi-classing.
"Heya! Have you been to Baldur's Gate? I've been to Baldur's Gate... Oops, stepped into something. Have you stepped into something?"
It's easy to 'beat' any particular build. My fighter-sorc build has his weaknesses, and the island of the maker was a pain in the butt. Right now those weaknesses stand at fire/magic immune, critical immune, and anything with an exceptional attack and armor rating.
Strength wise, is probably the best anticaster I've ever seen, throwing dispels and breaches, as well as having a supply of spell mantles. Meleewise, True Strike + flaming weapon decimates nearly everything within seconds, and is my favorite combo.
Here's the specs at level 25 (I went 12 fighter/ 8 sorc by level 20, then all sorc once 'epic')
Half Elf
Fighter 12, Sorcerer 13
Hit Points: 183, (208 buffed)
Strength 10, Dex 18 (28 w/ gear), Con 10 (12-15 w/ buff), Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18 (24 w/ cloak +6)
Base attacks: (7) 20/15/10/5 + 20/15 offhand.
Armor Class: 42 (combat-buffed)
Fort/Refl/Will: 13/17/12
Primary Skills:
Concentration 26, Discipline 15, Spellcraft 30, Tumble (cross class) 22, Lore 10 (forget why I bothered)
Standard Feats:
Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Exotic Proficiency, Weapon Focus: Two Bladed Sword, Weapon Specialization: Two Bladed Sword, Improved Critical: Two Bladed Sword.
Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Combat Casting
Dodge, Toughness, Expertise
Resist Energy: Fire (I could have gone improved expertise,but i had a whole fire-based theme going on at the time)
Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Penetration
Improved Combat Cast (I cast in melee a lot)
Spells
Level 1: Identify, True Strike, Mage Armor, Protection vs Alignment, Shelgarn's Persistant Blade or Magic Missile (forget which)
Level 2: Flaming Weapon, Bulls Strength, Endurance, Cats Grace, Combust (or Balagarn's Iron Horn)
Level 3: Haste, Protection (elements), Dispel Magic, Displacement
Level 4: Lesser Spell Breach, Isaac's Missile Storm, Elemental Shield, Stone Skin
Level 5: Firebrand, Lesser Spell Mantle, Acid Sheathe (or Hold Monster)
Level 6: Bigby's Forceful Hand, Isaac's Greater Missile Storm (pick up Shadow Shield, Spell Breach, & Spell Mantle later)
With Haste, That's 8 attacks per round with my specialized weapon/flaming weapon properties that are nearly guaranteed to hit, and I use it a lot in combination with Expertise to maintain the extra defense rating. ~20+ damage per hit can add up to around 160 hp in 6 seconds, forcing most to retreat/heal immediately on the first round. I took down the half orc assassin in chapter 2 in two rounds at level 6 or 7, and only one round was spent casting True Strike. (edit: might have been 9.. been a while) =D
In the 'battle of the two-bladed swords' in the Underdark (you know who i'm talking about ^_^) He actually lasted a couple of rounds. He got the better part of me the first few times simply because I kept trying to cast Hold Monster on him. Wasn't working, so I got down and dirty, and he buckled and fell.
Strength wise, is probably the best anticaster I've ever seen, throwing dispels and breaches, as well as having a supply of spell mantles. Meleewise, True Strike + flaming weapon decimates nearly everything within seconds, and is my favorite combo.
Here's the specs at level 25 (I went 12 fighter/ 8 sorc by level 20, then all sorc once 'epic')
Half Elf
Fighter 12, Sorcerer 13
Hit Points: 183, (208 buffed)
Strength 10, Dex 18 (28 w/ gear), Con 10 (12-15 w/ buff), Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18 (24 w/ cloak +6)
Base attacks: (7) 20/15/10/5 + 20/15 offhand.
Armor Class: 42 (combat-buffed)
Fort/Refl/Will: 13/17/12
Primary Skills:
Concentration 26, Discipline 15, Spellcraft 30, Tumble (cross class) 22, Lore 10 (forget why I bothered)
Standard Feats:
Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Exotic Proficiency, Weapon Focus: Two Bladed Sword, Weapon Specialization: Two Bladed Sword, Improved Critical: Two Bladed Sword.
Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Combat Casting
Dodge, Toughness, Expertise
Resist Energy: Fire (I could have gone improved expertise,but i had a whole fire-based theme going on at the time)
Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Penetration
Improved Combat Cast (I cast in melee a lot)
Spells
Level 1: Identify, True Strike, Mage Armor, Protection vs Alignment, Shelgarn's Persistant Blade or Magic Missile (forget which)
Level 2: Flaming Weapon, Bulls Strength, Endurance, Cats Grace, Combust (or Balagarn's Iron Horn)
Level 3: Haste, Protection (elements), Dispel Magic, Displacement
Level 4: Lesser Spell Breach, Isaac's Missile Storm, Elemental Shield, Stone Skin
Level 5: Firebrand, Lesser Spell Mantle, Acid Sheathe (or Hold Monster)
Level 6: Bigby's Forceful Hand, Isaac's Greater Missile Storm (pick up Shadow Shield, Spell Breach, & Spell Mantle later)
With Haste, That's 8 attacks per round with my specialized weapon/flaming weapon properties that are nearly guaranteed to hit, and I use it a lot in combination with Expertise to maintain the extra defense rating. ~20+ damage per hit can add up to around 160 hp in 6 seconds, forcing most to retreat/heal immediately on the first round. I took down the half orc assassin in chapter 2 in two rounds at level 6 or 7, and only one round was spent casting True Strike. (edit: might have been 9.. been a while) =D
In the 'battle of the two-bladed swords' in the Underdark (you know who i'm talking about ^_^) He actually lasted a couple of rounds. He got the better part of me the first few times simply because I kept trying to cast Hold Monster on him. Wasn't working, so I got down and dirty, and he buckled and fell.
How do you have Spellcraft 30 at level 25? (And, btw, the best 'Anti-spellcaster' is pure monk)
Well, off the top of my head, here are some simple builds that will beat yours.
25 Sorc/Wiz (Think Greater Sanctuary + Black Blade of Disaster). It will possibly have higher AC (Epic Mage Armour), has access to Time Stop + Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, death spells will most likely kill you (Wail of the Banshee DC = 10 + 9 + 7 (CHA) = 26 vs. fort 13) among others. In fact, I can kill you in a single maximised Isaacs Greater Missile Storm!! Clerics and Druids would probably also defeat you because of their far superior casting skills.
Monk 25. Spell Res. Turns the fight into 16 (approx) fighter vs. 25 Monk. Will also probably have higher AC. I have empty body (not that I need it), and I may even be able to kill with a Quivering Palm (though admittedly I will have trouble defeating your AC). And never underestimate a hasted Monk running around with a bow with unlimited ammo .
[Half-Orc] Bard 15/RDD 10. Two words: Devastating Critical (STR 42 with items but no buffs). It only gets better at higher levels (Palemaster). It can also dispel your spells.
A good Pally/CoT build could beat you quite easily with thier Divine (Shield, Wrath etc.) abilities. It will have higher saves, AC and BAB.
If you want some more feel free to ask !
Well, off the top of my head, here are some simple builds that will beat yours.
25 Sorc/Wiz (Think Greater Sanctuary + Black Blade of Disaster). It will possibly have higher AC (Epic Mage Armour), has access to Time Stop + Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, death spells will most likely kill you (Wail of the Banshee DC = 10 + 9 + 7 (CHA) = 26 vs. fort 13) among others. In fact, I can kill you in a single maximised Isaacs Greater Missile Storm!! Clerics and Druids would probably also defeat you because of their far superior casting skills.
Monk 25. Spell Res. Turns the fight into 16 (approx) fighter vs. 25 Monk. Will also probably have higher AC. I have empty body (not that I need it), and I may even be able to kill with a Quivering Palm (though admittedly I will have trouble defeating your AC). And never underestimate a hasted Monk running around with a bow with unlimited ammo
.[Half-Orc] Bard 15/RDD 10. Two words: Devastating Critical (STR 42 with items but no buffs). It only gets better at higher levels (Palemaster). It can also dispel your spells.
A good Pally/CoT build could beat you quite easily with thier Divine (Shield, Wrath etc.) abilities. It will have higher saves, AC and BAB.
If you want some more feel free to ask
!"Heya! Have you been to Baldur's Gate? I've been to Baldur's Gate... Oops, stepped into something. Have you stepped into something?"
Well.. I've got you with a close match vs wizards. Spell Mantles soak up your level 9 spells easy, crossed with dispels/breaches to eat the wards in the meantime, and I do believe that dispel affects Black Blade, and I may think of investing in Dismissal. It would be a tight fight, but if I can dig through your defenses (using Mantles to soak up your worst), there isn't much you can do but run around in circles. Eventually, I hope to have time stops of my own (20 sorc/12 fighter), which puts me back on par with most casters. As a half elf, I can do so with some impunity (human would be better with the extra feat/skills). Don't forget that I can still access high end spells via scrolls.
Vs Monks, easy kill if I get into melee. Give me a few rounds, you're dead, give or take some for AC/hp. I don't need to beat your spell resistance, I only count on your lack of direct fire resistance vs Flaming Weapon. Trueshot gives me all the edge I need against your armor class, and I have no need to versus your saving throws or spell resistances. I come packed with plenty of Trueshots at level 13, and i'm not using my level 1 spells for much else (I'm planning on taking autoquicken at level 30, to add insult to injury). Lets throw on the damage shield damge from Elemental Shield and possibly Acid Sheathe in case you plan on knocking me down.
Devastating Critical, you've got me beat. This build can deal out the pain on spades, but can't take it quite as well against anything that can hit through the defenses with any certainty, or has an astounding armor class (eg, clerics/paladins). I can only hope that I can dish out pain fast fast enough via Isaacs and Elemental/Acid shields, plus my trueshots before you land that crit. Paladins are melee gods in their own right, and I'm ususally glad I don't versus them for the most part. I played both a pure paladin and a paladin/rogue, so I'm aware that they are the 'safest' class to play, generally speaking.
Suffice to say, I did have trouble with the golems on maker isle, since they were effectively immune to the improved criticals/flaming weapon/two bladed sword combo. The Mithral Golems were next to impossible, and the demilich took a lot of work and luck.
Vs Monks, easy kill if I get into melee. Give me a few rounds, you're dead, give or take some for AC/hp. I don't need to beat your spell resistance, I only count on your lack of direct fire resistance vs Flaming Weapon. Trueshot gives me all the edge I need against your armor class, and I have no need to versus your saving throws or spell resistances. I come packed with plenty of Trueshots at level 13, and i'm not using my level 1 spells for much else (I'm planning on taking autoquicken at level 30, to add insult to injury). Lets throw on the damage shield damge from Elemental Shield and possibly Acid Sheathe in case you plan on knocking me down.
Devastating Critical, you've got me beat. This build can deal out the pain on spades, but can't take it quite as well against anything that can hit through the defenses with any certainty, or has an astounding armor class (eg, clerics/paladins). I can only hope that I can dish out pain fast fast enough via Isaacs and Elemental/Acid shields, plus my trueshots before you land that crit. Paladins are melee gods in their own right, and I'm ususally glad I don't versus them for the most part. I played both a pure paladin and a paladin/rogue, so I'm aware that they are the 'safest' class to play, generally speaking.
Suffice to say, I did have trouble with the golems on maker isle, since they were effectively immune to the improved criticals/flaming weapon/two bladed sword combo. The Mithral Golems were next to impossible, and the demilich took a lot of work and luck.
I'm not going to say that the fighter/sorc is invulnerable, it's effective in it's own right, and plain fun to play, particularly trying to survive the lower levels is remarkably fun (you have to progressively take some spells and do a lot of swapping as you go).
There are ways to make it better, and ways to custom-fit it. I didn't quite design it for min/max purposes. For instance, rather than take Exotic feat, I could have taken Finesse and focused in Rapiers or short swords and dual wielded them, thus raising my attack bonus with my Dex.
Alternately, i could have given up dual wielding feats entirely and gone with a small shield (sucking up the 5% penalty) and gotten a lot of extra AC in the long run.
by level 30, I'll fight nearly as good as a level 20 fighter (only 4 BAB short of the full 20), plus the spellpower of 18 levels of sorcerer.
My question is.. what should I do once I go past level 32? (12 Fighter/20 Sorc). I'm having trouble deciding on either epic sorc for whever bonuses it may bring, finishing off my fighter levels for more feats, or take levels in RDD or Palemaster
((as for the Spellcraft, i believe the skills take into account ability bonus, so it would be 28 ranks and 2 int))
There are ways to make it better, and ways to custom-fit it. I didn't quite design it for min/max purposes. For instance, rather than take Exotic feat, I could have taken Finesse and focused in Rapiers or short swords and dual wielded them, thus raising my attack bonus with my Dex.
Alternately, i could have given up dual wielding feats entirely and gone with a small shield (sucking up the 5% penalty) and gotten a lot of extra AC in the long run.
by level 30, I'll fight nearly as good as a level 20 fighter (only 4 BAB short of the full 20), plus the spellpower of 18 levels of sorcerer.
My question is.. what should I do once I go past level 32? (12 Fighter/20 Sorc). I'm having trouble deciding on either epic sorc for whever bonuses it may bring, finishing off my fighter levels for more feats, or take levels in RDD or Palemaster
((as for the Spellcraft, i believe the skills take into account ability bonus, so it would be 28 ranks and 2 int))
You seem to have the impression that I will neither move, nor use tactics at all!
Allow me to present you with a hypothetical situation, I'll even allow you to win the initiative roll!
You: Either you move towards me or cast defensive spells.
I: If you cast mantle, I cast Quickened Dispel, then Maximised Isaacs. You die.
If you have access to +10 items AND high level scrolls etc. if isn't a very realistic duel (+10 items need something like 30 levels).
Here you are under the impression that I will ignore every spell you cast. If I see you casting a defensive spell or True Strike (or more likely, because of my non-existant Spellcraft, running from all spells), I will simply run away (I'm faster then you) until the duration runs out. I would be extremly stupid to continue to attack you if you have Acid Sheath etc. when I could run away until the duration runs out. Your 20 AB will have 5% chance of beating my AC.
Sorceror. Your melee skills will be pitiful at such high levels (even with +8 STR from RDD).
Well.. I've got you with a close match vs wizards. Spell Mantles soak up your level 9 spells easy, crossed with dispels/breaches to eat the wards in the meantime, and I do believe that dispel affects Black Blade, and I may think of investing in Dismissal. It would be a tight fight, but if I can dig through your defenses (using Mantles to soak up your worst), there isn't much you can do but run around in circles.
Allow me to present you with a hypothetical situation, I'll even allow you to win the initiative roll!
You: Either you move towards me or cast defensive spells.
I: If you cast mantle, I cast Quickened Dispel, then Maximised Isaacs. You die.
If you have access to +10 items AND high level scrolls etc. if isn't a very realistic duel (+10 items need something like 30 levels).
Vs Monks, easy kill if I get into melee. Give me a few rounds, you're dead, give or take some for AC/hp. I don't need to beat your spell resistance, I only count on your lack of direct fire resistance vs Flaming Weapon. Trueshot gives me all the edge I need against your armor class, and I have no need to versus your saving throws or spell resistances. I come packed with plenty of Trueshots at level 13, and i'm not using my level 1 spells for much else (I'm planning on taking autoquicken at level 30, to add insult to injury). Lets throw on the damage shield damge from Elemental Shield and possibly Acid Sheathe in case you plan on knocking me down.
Here you are under the impression that I will ignore every spell you cast. If I see you casting a defensive spell or True Strike (or more likely, because of my non-existant Spellcraft, running from all spells), I will simply run away (I'm faster then you) until the duration runs out. I would be extremly stupid to continue to attack you if you have Acid Sheath etc. when I could run away until the duration runs out. Your 20 AB will have 5% chance of beating my AC.
My question is.. what should I do once I go past level 32? (12 Fighter/20 Sorc). I'm having trouble deciding on either epic sorc for whever bonuses it may bring, finishing off my fighter levels for more feats, or take levels in RDD or Palemaster
Sorceror. Your melee skills will be pitiful at such high levels (even with +8 STR from RDD).
"Heya! Have you been to Baldur's Gate? I've been to Baldur's Gate... Oops, stepped into something. Have you stepped into something?"
good PvP stuff, although I'm not so absorbed by the game to care about power builds, and we could go back and forth all day about double-casting mantles and bow-swapping, etc. If I had cared about maxmizing power, I'd have rebuilt it around short swords and Finesse for more attack bonus, kept Keen Weapon in my 2nd level spells, and taken improved expertise instead of
I just found it effective in general, yet fun as hell to play, combining high level arcane spellcasting with melee combat.
Since the base attack bonus 'freezes' at level 20, going 12 fighter/8 sorc to start means I slip in my 4th attack per round just under the wire. After that, it doesn't matter what I raise, the BAB advancement is the same across all epic-level classes.
The only point being, it's perfectly viable to hybridize large quantities of caster in almost 50/50 fashion if done right. Short of a pvp savvy wizard/monk or munchkin build, the character can still hold up to quite a bit.
Try it out before you knock it too hard.
I just found it effective in general, yet fun as hell to play, combining high level arcane spellcasting with melee combat.
Since the base attack bonus 'freezes' at level 20, going 12 fighter/8 sorc to start means I slip in my 4th attack per round just under the wire. After that, it doesn't matter what I raise, the BAB advancement is the same across all epic-level classes.
The only point being, it's perfectly viable to hybridize large quantities of caster in almost 50/50 fashion if done right. Short of a pvp savvy wizard/monk or munchkin build, the character can still hold up to quite a bit.
Try it out before you knock it too hard.
If you want to play with some really fun builds try out the Prestige Class Consortium. There are some 30 or so PRC's (all copied as closely as possible to pnp) and most of them are great fun (if a little unbalanced).
I thought that it 'freezes' at epic progression of classes? (not at level 20), i.e. a 20 Bard/5 Palemaster will use Palemster progression until 10 Palemster.
Quite a change eh?
I was personally extremely dissapointed at the way Bioware handled epic levels, removing many of the feats that made epic casters fun (Epic Spells). They also should of left Spell Knowledge in (learn two more spells, you can understand how important this could be for sorcs). Perfect Two Weapon Fighting would also have been a great addition.
Do you play online? If you do which server do you play on?
Since the base attack bonus 'freezes' at level 20, going 12 fighter/8 sorc to start means I slip in my 4th attack per round just under the wire. After that, it doesn't matter what I raise, the BAB advancement is the same across all epic-level classes.
I thought that it 'freezes' at epic progression of classes? (not at level 20), i.e. a 20 Bard/5 Palemaster will use Palemster progression until 10 Palemster.
The only point being, it's perfectly viable to hybridize large quantities of caster in almost 50/50 fashion if done right.
I've played around a LOT with hybrid classes (other than prestiges) and I have to say, the game treats them like brutal rejects.
Quite a change eh?
I was personally extremely dissapointed at the way Bioware handled epic levels, removing many of the feats that made epic casters fun (Epic Spells). They also should of left Spell Knowledge in (learn two more spells, you can understand how important this could be for sorcs). Perfect Two Weapon Fighting would also have been a great addition.
Do you play online? If you do which server do you play on?
"Heya! Have you been to Baldur's Gate? I've been to Baldur's Gate... Oops, stepped into something. Have you stepped into something?"
Yea, order matters in the first twenty levels.
If I go 10 fighter/10 wizard, I would be stuck forever at 3 main hand attacks. as far as BAB is concerned, there is no difference between wizard and fighter bonuses once you are epic, they both follow the 'epic' progression (+1 every other level)
This is why I went 12 fighter/8 Sorc.. I slip in the fourth main hand attack by level 20, so i'm only 4 points short of what a level 20 fighter would have. At level 25, hasted, that is +18/18/18/13/13/8/3. Assuming +2 bonus from Bulls and a +6 weapon, it comes out to +25/25/25/20/20/15/10. Sure, can't hit as hard as a strength-focused epic melee, but considering i'll have this plus 9th level spells by 30th, and Epic spells not too long after.
True Strike (+45/+45/+45/40/40/35/30) makes this really fun. I'm pondering sacrificing two feats for Disarm and Extend Spell (two rounds of True Strike)
After 20th, my sorc levels earn me the same BAB that any other class would, only i'm earning better sorcerer spells. As a half elf, or human, you won't take an XP hit for having the level gap.
While BAB freezes, abilities do not, so I had the choice of either continuing as a Fighter for more feats (2 per level still), or Sorcerer for better spell power. I went with the latter because I wanted AutoQuicken/Time Stop by level 30. After level 32, I could take more Fighter feats and possibly earn Burst of Speed before I hit 40, freeing me up to find a better equipment peice.
I don't play online much, I've little patience and haven't met a server that I've cared for. I only post my 2 cents here every so often while I wait for World of Warcraft.
Edit: Addendum
I redid the build a bit and tried to counter just about every point you made. I'm satisfied with the results.
Devastating Critical: I re-worked my feats and took Improved Disarm. Trueshot + Imp Disarm poses a ruthless skill check. No attacks of opporunity for spellcasting or the disarm attempt. This defeats weapon master bonuses (unless unarmed), Improved Critical, Weapon focus/spec, and enhancement bonuses that the weapon has.. plus, unless you have improved unarmed strike, I get an 8th attack on you if you don't notice your sword is gone. This reduces the chance for a critical hit down to a fairly safe 2%, and I'm sure it affects the DC of the save in case you get lucky.
Spellcasters: by level 30, I'll have access to almost the same spell lineup so it will almost be a close match in a war of casting/counter casting, and dispelling. Autoquickened Dispel Magic, Time stop, followed by Truestrike and a straight rush into melee might give me an edge, but it's still a fight for initiative and strategy. I'm still trying to tweak spells for better counter-cast capacity, but if my HP is anything to go by, a pure caster won't last terribly long if I can dig through the defenses. My loss here is AutoQuicken II and III.
What I do have to my advantage in this matchup is Thunderclap (stun/prone/deaf), Bigby's Forceful (knockdown), Bigby's Clenching (stun), and Time Stops. I win initiative? Time stop, Thunderclap, Bigby's Forceful. If that doesn't stick, well.. pooey.
Monk: Pfeh. At level 30, I've roughly a 50/50 shot at beating SR 34 if I want to chance a few Missile Storms/Horrid Wilting (Fort save for half, you -will- feel it ). If you fight, I trueshot. If you run, I whip out a bow and see how well you dance (my AB with a bow is superior to my two-weapon melee capacity because of Dex, and some numbers didn't reflect weapon/stat bonuses, just Base).
Also, with a pixie familiar, I come packed with a mobile rogue for utility purposes. ^_^
With level 31 comes Epic Mage Armor and Mords Disjunction. Black Blade at 32. lvl 33 brings Epic Warding. Btw, my AC above accounts for the fact that I typically don't wear an amulet of natural armor, preferring an Amulet of Greater Health instead.
Quite fun, very powerful, highly versatile, and I'm running out of hotkey slots to organize all the buttons..
If I go 10 fighter/10 wizard, I would be stuck forever at 3 main hand attacks. as far as BAB is concerned, there is no difference between wizard and fighter bonuses once you are epic, they both follow the 'epic' progression (+1 every other level)
This is why I went 12 fighter/8 Sorc.. I slip in the fourth main hand attack by level 20, so i'm only 4 points short of what a level 20 fighter would have. At level 25, hasted, that is +18/18/18/13/13/8/3. Assuming +2 bonus from Bulls and a +6 weapon, it comes out to +25/25/25/20/20/15/10. Sure, can't hit as hard as a strength-focused epic melee, but considering i'll have this plus 9th level spells by 30th, and Epic spells not too long after.
True Strike (+45/+45/+45/40/40/35/30) makes this really fun. I'm pondering sacrificing two feats for Disarm and Extend Spell (two rounds of True Strike)
After 20th, my sorc levels earn me the same BAB that any other class would, only i'm earning better sorcerer spells. As a half elf, or human, you won't take an XP hit for having the level gap.
While BAB freezes, abilities do not, so I had the choice of either continuing as a Fighter for more feats (2 per level still), or Sorcerer for better spell power. I went with the latter because I wanted AutoQuicken/Time Stop by level 30. After level 32, I could take more Fighter feats and possibly earn Burst of Speed before I hit 40, freeing me up to find a better equipment peice.
I don't play online much, I've little patience and haven't met a server that I've cared for. I only post my 2 cents here every so often while I wait for World of Warcraft.
Edit: Addendum
I redid the build a bit and tried to counter just about every point you made. I'm satisfied with the results.
Devastating Critical: I re-worked my feats and took Improved Disarm. Trueshot + Imp Disarm poses a ruthless skill check. No attacks of opporunity for spellcasting or the disarm attempt. This defeats weapon master bonuses (unless unarmed), Improved Critical, Weapon focus/spec, and enhancement bonuses that the weapon has.. plus, unless you have improved unarmed strike, I get an 8th attack on you if you don't notice your sword is gone. This reduces the chance for a critical hit down to a fairly safe 2%, and I'm sure it affects the DC of the save in case you get lucky.
Spellcasters: by level 30, I'll have access to almost the same spell lineup so it will almost be a close match in a war of casting/counter casting, and dispelling. Autoquickened Dispel Magic, Time stop, followed by Truestrike and a straight rush into melee might give me an edge, but it's still a fight for initiative and strategy. I'm still trying to tweak spells for better counter-cast capacity, but if my HP is anything to go by, a pure caster won't last terribly long if I can dig through the defenses. My loss here is AutoQuicken II and III.
What I do have to my advantage in this matchup is Thunderclap (stun/prone/deaf), Bigby's Forceful (knockdown), Bigby's Clenching (stun), and Time Stops. I win initiative? Time stop, Thunderclap, Bigby's Forceful. If that doesn't stick, well.. pooey.
Monk: Pfeh. At level 30, I've roughly a 50/50 shot at beating SR 34 if I want to chance a few Missile Storms/Horrid Wilting (Fort save for half, you -will- feel it
). If you fight, I trueshot. If you run, I whip out a bow and see how well you dance (my AB with a bow is superior to my two-weapon melee capacity because of Dex, and some numbers didn't reflect weapon/stat bonuses, just Base). Also, with a pixie familiar, I come packed with a mobile rogue for utility purposes. ^_^
With level 31 comes Epic Mage Armor and Mords Disjunction. Black Blade at 32. lvl 33 brings Epic Warding. Btw, my AC above accounts for the fact that I typically don't wear an amulet of natural armor, preferring an Amulet of Greater Health instead.
Quite fun, very powerful, highly versatile, and I'm running out of hotkey slots to organize all the buttons..