DM in need of help....

Mattaeus · Post by **Mattaeus** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:36 pm

Okay so here is my story.
Iv just started DMing again after a 2 year break and started up an old campainge with 2 friends; we also brought 3 more people into the world that had been asking me to DM for a while. I start the old characters off in familliar suroundings and bring in the new characters.
First problem was the characters that where brought in....I told them to make up lvl 4 characters with no experiance and had them us E-tools to do it. I thought I was clear on terms and what I expected...Insted I get 3 characters (one that was accualy 4th lvl) a 5th lvl and a 5th lvl with 1exp point from 6th (wtf eh) and they bought magic magic magic!! Once of the characters had insainly high stats and he said he rolled till he got what he wanted; I looked at the DM stats on Etools and seen that he rolled once (meening he enterd in the stats manualy)...Long story short! he died...in a most uncomfotable way.
Second, the part members start fighting amungst themselfs! Mostly because I was forcing them to play there alignment and 1 of the characters thought he could play a neutral evil with a group of goods. But I never told them to start ploting to kill each other...wich they did.
Third, They have no clue how to play there alignments! I already forced 3 of them to make alignment changes and penilized then exp for the 3 game sesions we had. and made it clear that if they do it again it will resalt in the loss of lvl.
Four, they start to split up into faction and start ploting against each other AGAIN....Im getting tired of this by then, I spent weeks writing up a game for then to play and they spend all there time fighting with each other. Now the old characters in the game are getting fed up with it but are just as bad as the noobs and are in no way trying to help them learn the game. I sit them all down and tell them strait out to either get along with each other in game play while mantaining your porly chosen alignments or everyone will be writeing up new characters.
Five! Now usualy in my campains I like to through a little bit of mistry and suspence, in this one I wrote up a mystry. One of the characters (my NPC) has been kidnaped and whats worse is that they killed everyone in the main floor of the Inn where he was (the characters bought an Inn in my game) and left behind a bloodbath as well as a few well place clues and witnesses that have to be sought out...Im thinking GREAT! it will give them something to do besides acting like ass's! WRONG, what I forgot is that they are all a bunch of idiots and in one day of my adventur managed to get themselfs arested twice by the guard and have a warrent put out for the 2 evil people because they thought that killing guards where fun! They litraly played out every hour of the day in my game over 3 days and screwed not only the hole game plan but there reputations.
I am TRYING to salvage the game for the sake of the older players but Im at my wits end with them. We have only been playing for 2 months and they make me want to burn my books....and I would if I didnt pay so freeken much for then...That and I do enjoy DMing, just not with these guys...and it just so happens that they are all good friends and have all contrabuted to the game finacualy so that we have everything that we need......

help??

boo's daddy · Post by **boo's daddy** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 4:27 am

It's a familiar story - DM spends ages painstakingly creating an adventure, but sadly the players haven't read the script.

My general advice would be to remember that it's really their game, not yours (they're the players after all), and let them take the consequences of their actions. If they act like *******s, let them die like *******s, as they would in real life.

Getting more specific, if they don't stick to the script, wing it. Don't be afraid to make changes to your storyline as you go along.

As for the dodgy character creation thing: what's wrong with good old-fashioned dice? Get 'em to roll their stats in front of you. No re-rolling allowed.

Rudar Dimble · Post by **Rudar Dimble** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 5:44 am

You should talk to your players and tell them: "stop this kind of things or I'll stop DM-ing". Just be straight forward with it.

You should create a story that the players want to play and make changes if that's what they want.

Mattaeus · Post by **Mattaeus** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:59 pm

Iv tryed to give that speech...its just that I dont really want to stop DMing, I like it and USUALY enjoy myself. I was trying to resolve this withought discoraging them, but its come to a point where I dont think theres anyway to do that. We played again last night and where missing one person; amazingly enough they actualy did something and we had fun....with only a few altercations....Unfotunetly the one that was missing was my friends girlfriend....Dont think I can tell her to piss off withought offending my friend.

Oh well!

Madric · Post by **Madric** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:15 pm

My solution

I had a similar problem a while back, and tried everything I could to make it work. I made the campaign as free-formed as possible and allowed them to control the game, hopefully each would find out what they wanted. This didn't work, the lack of direction and the more leniency I gave just made them wander more aimlessly and with no coherent structure, they each wanted to adventure on their own or just kill each other.

After talking to the player and having some more experience myself, this is my solution. To start off the game, let them all make new characters, but you should probably at first restrict to non-evil alignments ( that can change later ). Secondly, use 25-point buy, this gets rid of the characters outragously powerful, and makes racial bonuses useful. This also eliminates munchakins which you seemed to have a problem with.

Also, to start the game off, TELL the players how they met up, or what peril called these people ( maybe unwillingly ) together. As the game develops, they can add more back-story and depth to their characters. Giving them a common task to start just makes things cohesive.

Once things start working out, they should get back in order. Make sure your challenges have aspects that require each of the members and their unique abilities in order to overcome.

Hope this helps.

Mattaeus · Post by **Mattaeus** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:22 am

Good advice, and thanks. If finaly realized tonight that joining these people into the middle of this campange just wont work. The old players refuse to let the newer CHAOTIC players to ruin there "world" and the new players refuse to let the old players tell them what to do. I did try to give them a common task and even though rushed into, a background. It was just after the first day of gameing that they devoloped the "your not the boss of me" attitude.

This just in! I told my party that we where all gong to make up ne characters and one just left and said hes not going to because its STUIPID.....sheesh, cant win for losing.

Anyways, thanks again

Valthonis · Post by **Valthonis** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 12:44 pm

I used to DM a lot back in 2nd ed and would never let the players roll up their characters without me being there to suoervise.
I know this may be a bit harsh on the whole group but i would say to start over completely with first lvl characters for all and have them do it all together. Have one session devoted to making up new characters so that way you can see the rolls and the choices.
If the group is going inot factions and plaotting to kill each other, the game has gotten out of control and you need to hit the rewind button or the clear button. Either way, start over is my suggestion.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:02 pm

Character creation is a matter of trust, I trust my players.

Valthonis · Post by **Valthonis** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 5:20 pm

I would say thats great if you can trust your players but from what the opening post stated, some of these players either didnt listen to the way they were supposed to do the PC creation process, or they just didnt care and went about it their own way. So, they are not showing that they are trust worthy right from the begining.

taltamir · Post by **taltamir** » Sun May 09, 2004 5:56 pm

trust is precarious thing...

People new to the DnD would should be guided in slowly and treated as newbies at first...
Examples will be, point buy, but players on their very first dnd game get 2 extra points.... players on their very first game are restricted to non evil alignments... etc

Also the dmg specifically sais how much starting cash players get based on level, find the value, tell them it etc... and besides noone should ever be set to making their first character by themselves, on my first character (which joined an existing group)
The DM sat with me and helped me design a character, took 4 hours, but it was fun... if you sit them down and walk them through it once then they will learn it...
I then sat down through a whole session (6 hours) as a spectator, and also as a slight dm helper, to see how it is played, i made some mistakes, said things i should, etc, but it was explained to me (so i dont do things like make a suggestion like saying, hi dont you wanna search this room as a co-dm).
After that I redsigned my character (druid instead of wizard), but I could do it now since i saw how it was done... point buy basis, 2 extra points since it was my first character (everyone were on 32 point buy anyways so that 2 extra meant very little, and i actually put one into charisma for an 11 charisma, which is basically a wasted point)...

Dont throw newbies into deep plots!!!
So you got some newbies? give them a few sessions of dungeon crawling to get some of the basic downs, use cliche plots and simple things, also wing it... dont spent alot of time and effort on their first few sessions, because they arent gonna go smoothly with newbies... its like everything else, first time is kinda bad, but once you do it you can finally start getting better at it!
After those few sessions (can even be one or two), then you start the main plot... and again start mild

Also give advice to the noobs, or an actual guide... so tell them I wouldnt do that because so and so...

Also give them alittle break aswell, if the noobs bit more then they could chew give alittle nerfing or advice.. but remember to make it clear its not gonna be a habbit, make them still work hard for it, and lower the amount of leeway as they become more proficient in the game, after a few sessions it shouldnt be a problem anymore.

Explain to them about alignment, and lay down some base rules for alignment, you can take that to a vote...
Some hold alignment to be black and white, strict actions, killing is bad, poison is bad, giving money is good...
Some hold it to be more vague, using others in a way that harms them somehow to further yourself, bad, acting altruistically, good... doing some of both, neutral
also dont be too quick on shifting people's alignments to extremes, but be severe about it, a monk isnt likely to change to chaotic, that will require alot of extremely chaotic things, instead he shifts into neutral and tends to stay there, also XP and level penalties should only apply on certain situations, for example never for a wizard or a fighter, but for clerics who left their god's alignment, or for classes like monk or druid who do things against their alignment, thats a level hit or complete loss of power... maybe even smiting from their gods if they break too many rules...

Also i would highly recommend that you enforce (in your troublesome group) that all newbie pcs be no more then a single alignment away from another pc, or maybe even that they must use an alignment which is already being used by an experienced player, that way they get someone to immitate and learn from.

And remember, just cause they are your friends doesnt mean they arent arses!

ApplesFromMars · Post by **ApplesFromMars** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:04 pm

personally i've never dm'd but what my DM does do whe nwe are being f***s he usually will usaully just give us one of those speeches the nhe'll continue, usually if he are doin stupid things (like plotting againsto ne another) its usually becasu the adventure hasnt been that exciting so we've gone to make our own excitment. So waht im trying to say is try to add in some more excittment into your adventures (im not saing u rnt a good Dm)

Lost One · Post by **Lost One** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 5:21 am

Hard part about being a DM are the players. The first party I used to DM was great...just 4 of us, we used to have a lot of fun, I respected the players, they respected my opinions and leadership role, and we had lots of fun as a result.
Then two of them left (one left the state, the other, the country), and I had to find other people to play with.
Well, let's just say the last party I've been playing with have been an absolute nightmare. First of all, everyone wants to DM their own adventures, so that there is lack of consistency from one adventure to another. One of them is a rich guy whose house we usually use to play (conveniently large and better situated), which means, to him at least, that he can make demands over the DM and bicker & complain as much as he wants.
Another likes anime rpg, and tries to mix it with our medieval setting. Then there is the quiet one, the annoying one, the one who sleeps after but 1 hour of adventure, and when we had a girl playing...well, let's just say we had no idea why she was playing.

So basically, my point is, sometimes it doesn't work out, despite the best intentions from everyone. Which is why I stopped playing...(until I can find a better group that is).

As for rolling a character, it's always more fun to do it together using real dice than on some etools. Nothing like rolling 3 sixes and going 'oOoOoOoh!'

taltamir · Post by **taltamir** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Sometimes groups indeed done fit, just make different groups, if they are all your friends, try splitting them into two different groups going at diff times, and get a few more that will fit with each group...

So the anime freak guy for example, would likely enjoy an oriental setting adventure, and if you find another guy for that, well it fits.

The other guys, they might need another kind of rpg, maybe chainmail or dnd modern is even whitewulf...