I'm amazed at the number of creatures in all the elemental nodes that may as well be bugbears and ogres for all that they do. What am I talking about? Compare and contrast:
Gorgons in AD&D have a petrifying breath weapon. In ToEE, they butt you... and that's it.
Basilisks in AD&D have a petrifying gaze. In ToEE, they bite you... and that's it.
Bodaks in AD&D have a death-gaze attack. In ToEE, they hit you... and that's it.
Chaggrin in AD&D have a grapple-automatic-hit attack. In ToEE, they hit you... and that's it.
Am I sounding repetitive yet?
I know I'm not the only one who is hacked off at what is obviously a half-built game. I'm trying to figure out what possessed the developers to rush-release this game. It surely isn't going to do their reputation any good. Can any people with software nouse/experience give any insight as to what drives a company to release a slipshod game like this?
Why Bother with All the Differnt Monsters? (rant)
You definatley aren't alone, this has been discussed and argued and debated half to death over on the official board. What it boils down to was money and time. Troika kept missing thier deadlines so Atari decided not to put any more money into development, pulled the plug on the game, and released it in it's unfinished state. So you can thank all the corporate butt heads over at Atari for selling you a beta release.
I have the heart of a small boy,
I keep in a jar on my desk.
I keep in a jar on my desk.
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Lime_Jello24
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:02 am
- Location: Tinley Park, IL
- Contact:
It's called to make a buck.
Trust me I wrote a review on this board about TOEE. I wasnt happy with it. The same monsters over and over again. Plus a variety of other things.
As long as we the consumer purchase a product then the company gets what they want. How ever it isnt smart for Atari. Prehaps they need to look on other gaming companies and learn that a shabby game equals ticked off consumers and a happy gamer means you'll keep buying there product.
Trust me I wrote a review on this board about TOEE. I wasnt happy with it. The same monsters over and over again. Plus a variety of other things.
As long as we the consumer purchase a product then the company gets what they want. How ever it isnt smart for Atari. Prehaps they need to look on other gaming companies and learn that a shabby game equals ticked off consumers and a happy gamer means you'll keep buying there product.
~"Fire Ball'ing them is the only way to be sure"~
That's a nice list of features there which would have made monsters more unique and 3.5e compliant. If you could get a full list of proposed modifications for other various creatures (for example: Fast Healing for the Hydra), I could repost this at the Co8 forums and see if any interested modders are willing to take up the task.
I'm not saying we can code everything on the list but I hope to be able to do some and perhaps release these changes together with a future AI tweak.
Thanks.
Zhuge
Co8 moderator
I'm not saying we can code everything on the list but I hope to be able to do some and perhaps release these changes together with a future AI tweak.
Thanks.
Zhuge
Co8 moderator
I totally agree it's not quite as much AD&D...
If you've ever dug through the code or even the protos.tab file you'd really see how incomplete this game is - there's much more in the data and code then you'll ever see in game play. You also see how many bugs and sloppy use of data types there are - I'm still trying to figure out why 'Romag's Diary' is an 'obj_t_npc' - those objects are all NPC' s and monsters.
... ie. Bodak in the protos.tab file does have a ('Slay Living' class_cleric 5) in thier abilities - I've yet to see them use it or maybe did not pay attention when they did.
I suppose it would not take much to add a ('Hold Person' class_wizard 3) to the Gorgon and Basilisk to get somewhat of the petrification effect type attack out of them.
Anyway, the point I really wished to make was that when looking at this game from the inside I'd say trokia wasn't even a 1/3rd finished with what they intended.
If you've ever dug through the code or even the protos.tab file you'd really see how incomplete this game is - there's much more in the data and code then you'll ever see in game play. You also see how many bugs and sloppy use of data types there are - I'm still trying to figure out why 'Romag's Diary' is an 'obj_t_npc' - those objects are all NPC' s and monsters.
... ie. Bodak in the protos.tab file does have a ('Slay Living' class_cleric 5) in thier abilities - I've yet to see them use it or maybe did not pay attention when they did.
I suppose it would not take much to add a ('Hold Person' class_wizard 3) to the Gorgon and Basilisk to get somewhat of the petrification effect type attack out of them.
Anyway, the point I really wished to make was that when looking at this game from the inside I'd say trokia wasn't even a 1/3rd finished with what they intended.
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silverdragon72
- Posts: 850
- Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:53 am
- Contact:
[QUOTE=Eflat]If you've ever dug through the code or even the protos.tab file you'd really see how incomplete this game is - there's much more in the data and code then you'll ever see in game play. [/QUOTE]
Very true. There are lots of unused stuff. I suppose it is up to the community to put some of these into the game for now, as the 3rd official patch may take some time to materialize.
[QUOTE=Eflat]You also see how many bugs and sloppy use of data types there are - I'm still trying to figure out why 'Romag's Diary' is an 'obj_t_npc' - those objects are all NPC' s and monsters.[/QUOTE]
I think for a book to be accessible (simulate dialogue options) it needs to be coded as obj_t_npc.
I once asked Tom Decker why additional books could not be put in the game for the 2nd official patch as having some of them would be nice as background to the world of Greyhawk much akin to the many books and tomes which were around in IE games. He mentioned that doing so would add another prototype and he would need to liaise with other members to get it done.
[QUOTE=Eflat]... ie. Bodak in the protos.tab file does have a ('Slay Living' class_cleric 5) in thier abilities - I've yet to see them use it or maybe did not pay attention when they did.[/QUOTE]
I haven't noticed it either. However the other special traits are all coded in:
Damage reduction 10/cold iron, immunity to electricity, resistance to acid 10 and fire 10 (these have been increased to 20 though)
Salamanders do cast Fireball and Ice Lizards to use Cone of Cold so I'm hopeful we can get activate this with a tweak or two. Perhaps some modifications to Col333 (strategy) in protos.tab and strategy.tab are needed as well.
[QUOTE=Eflat]I suppose it would not take much to add a ('Hold Person' class_wizard 3) to the Gorgon and Basilisk to get somewhat of the petrification effect type attack out of them.[/QUOTE]
Nice idea. I was originally thinking of Flesh to Stone when I realized that it was a level 6 Wiz spell and doesn't seem to be coded in the game. Hold Person or Hold Monster should be a good approximation. Alternatively, perhaps we could make use of some special trait such as:
Monster Melee Paralysis No Elf
This would probably require a melee strike though so it isn't perfect either.
[QUOTE=Eflat]Anyway, the point I really wished to make was that when looking at this game from the inside I'd say trokia wasn't even a 1/3rd finished with what they intended.[/QUOTE]
ToEE was a rushed product. In his wrap up report, Tom Decker described the circumstances which led to this. IMHO both publisher and developer need to take some of the blame. Still Steve Moret has mentioned that a 3rd official patch is in the works and he is interested in having new content amongst other fixes so any modifications we make that are 3.5e compliant has a chance of becoming official.
I really like your ideas and would like to see us working together on this topic and on others as well.
Do drop by our forums and give us your comments/criticism on our work. We have been in dire need of active modders for the past few months and only recently have things begun to pick up a little again.
Very true. There are lots of unused stuff. I suppose it is up to the community to put some of these into the game for now, as the 3rd official patch may take some time to materialize.
[QUOTE=Eflat]You also see how many bugs and sloppy use of data types there are - I'm still trying to figure out why 'Romag's Diary' is an 'obj_t_npc' - those objects are all NPC' s and monsters.[/QUOTE]
I think for a book to be accessible (simulate dialogue options) it needs to be coded as obj_t_npc.
I once asked Tom Decker why additional books could not be put in the game for the 2nd official patch as having some of them would be nice as background to the world of Greyhawk much akin to the many books and tomes which were around in IE games. He mentioned that doing so would add another prototype and he would need to liaise with other members to get it done.
[QUOTE=Eflat]... ie. Bodak in the protos.tab file does have a ('Slay Living' class_cleric 5) in thier abilities - I've yet to see them use it or maybe did not pay attention when they did.[/QUOTE]
I haven't noticed it either. However the other special traits are all coded in:
Damage reduction 10/cold iron, immunity to electricity, resistance to acid 10 and fire 10 (these have been increased to 20 though)
Salamanders do cast Fireball and Ice Lizards to use Cone of Cold so I'm hopeful we can get activate this with a tweak or two. Perhaps some modifications to Col333 (strategy) in protos.tab and strategy.tab are needed as well.
[QUOTE=Eflat]I suppose it would not take much to add a ('Hold Person' class_wizard 3) to the Gorgon and Basilisk to get somewhat of the petrification effect type attack out of them.[/QUOTE]
Nice idea. I was originally thinking of Flesh to Stone when I realized that it was a level 6 Wiz spell and doesn't seem to be coded in the game. Hold Person or Hold Monster should be a good approximation. Alternatively, perhaps we could make use of some special trait such as:
Monster Melee Paralysis No Elf
This would probably require a melee strike though so it isn't perfect either.
[QUOTE=Eflat]Anyway, the point I really wished to make was that when looking at this game from the inside I'd say trokia wasn't even a 1/3rd finished with what they intended.[/QUOTE]
ToEE was a rushed product. In his wrap up report, Tom Decker described the circumstances which led to this. IMHO both publisher and developer need to take some of the blame. Still Steve Moret has mentioned that a 3rd official patch is in the works and he is interested in having new content amongst other fixes so any modifications we make that are 3.5e compliant has a chance of becoming official.
I really like your ideas and would like to see us working together on this topic and on others as well.
Do drop by our forums and give us your comments/criticism on our work. We have been in dire need of active modders for the past few months and only recently have things begun to pick up a little again.
[QUOTE=silverdragon72].
what I really would like is some kind of "HOF mode" for TOEE:
- level cap 15 or 20
- additional spells
- some additional items / craft options
...and much stronger enemies !
- double HD and/or +100HP
- double BAB
- +10 on all attributes
- ...
[/QUOTE]
Well Phalzyr worked on something like this previously:
http://www.kasec.org/toee/TOEE_EasyHardMod.zip
It was meant to work before the 1st official patch but Phalzyr did say it would work even after the 1st official patch. You can read the details here:
http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=256
Not sure if still works well after the 2nd official patch. I'll have to check the individual files. But you can have a quick look in the meanwhile and see whether it is indeed what you want.
what I really would like is some kind of "HOF mode" for TOEE:
- level cap 15 or 20
- additional spells
- some additional items / craft options
...and much stronger enemies !
- double HD and/or +100HP
- double BAB
- +10 on all attributes
- ...
[/QUOTE]
Well Phalzyr worked on something like this previously:
http://www.kasec.org/toee/TOEE_EasyHardMod.zip
It was meant to work before the 1st official patch but Phalzyr did say it would work even after the 1st official patch. You can read the details here:
http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=256
Not sure if still works well after the 2nd official patch. I'll have to check the individual files. But you can have a quick look in the meanwhile and see whether it is indeed what you want.
[QUOTE=zhuge]
ToEE was a rushed product. In his wrap up report, Tom Decker described the circumstances which led to this. IMHO both publisher and developer need to take some of the blame. Still Steve Moret has mentioned that a 3rd official patch is in the works and he is interested in having new content amongst other fixes so any modifications we make that are 3.5e compliant has a chance of becoming official.
I really like your ideas and would like to see us working together on this topic and on others as well.
Do drop by our forums and give us your comments/criticism on our work. We have been in dire need of active modders for the past few months and only recently have things begun to pick up a little again.[/QUOTE]
Do you know if Decker's report is on-line anywhere?
ToEE was a rushed product. In his wrap up report, Tom Decker described the circumstances which led to this. IMHO both publisher and developer need to take some of the blame. Still Steve Moret has mentioned that a 3rd official patch is in the works and he is interested in having new content amongst other fixes so any modifications we make that are 3.5e compliant has a chance of becoming official.
I really like your ideas and would like to see us working together on this topic and on others as well.
Do drop by our forums and give us your comments/criticism on our work. We have been in dire need of active modders for the past few months and only recently have things begun to pick up a little again.[/QUOTE]
Do you know if Decker's report is on-line anywhere?
Decker's wrap report:
http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/441/441983p1.html
I still await getting a good list of tweaks for special abilities.
http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/441/441983p1.html
I still await getting a good list of tweaks for special abilities.
zhuge,
Yes monster special abilities are important and actually at some revision what really would kick is a major overhaul of the obj_t_npc objects, correcting the strategies, skills, feats, etc... also the san_?...
ie.) Think of this - A typical non-combatant NPC (a woman villager from Nulb) would not stick around and get hacked to death - should they survive the initial assult, they'd attempt to flee to someplace where they'd feel safe and when beaten to within inches of life they'd most definately beg for mercy (dialog). This would be true of even a tough Chaotic neutral/evil NPC - monster too whereas a Lawful good NPC might stick around for more punishment due to a sence of serving the greater good. The game would end up with more of an AD&D feeling which is lacking in the AI now - unpredictability, Imagine the last bugbear of a group - with a few hp of death - tripping the nearest PC and then head-high tailing for another room, where there's a group of ogres who may help protect him - now on alert - kind of similar to the bugbear sentry in the moat-house but more effective. A ranger's Track skill becomes a useful tool and the player a bit more leary about what's around the corner. A total different game full of surprises.
Oh yeah... btw of the subject and I don't recall if it's on this forum or when I was scaning over on co8 but someone requested the addition of a 'chain lightning' scroll - well check out object 9051. Its the only 6th level sorcerer/wizard spell unfortunately though if you have a wizard who's intelligence is high enough to accomodate 6th level slots and learn the spell from that scroll they cannot use it as the radial dial only accomodates up to 5th level spells - so that would have to be changed - they can however craft it as a wand if they have that skill so you can have an endless supply of chain lightning wands.
Yes monster special abilities are important and actually at some revision what really would kick is a major overhaul of the obj_t_npc objects, correcting the strategies, skills, feats, etc... also the san_?...
ie.) Think of this - A typical non-combatant NPC (a woman villager from Nulb) would not stick around and get hacked to death - should they survive the initial assult, they'd attempt to flee to someplace where they'd feel safe and when beaten to within inches of life they'd most definately beg for mercy (dialog). This would be true of even a tough Chaotic neutral/evil NPC - monster too whereas a Lawful good NPC might stick around for more punishment due to a sence of serving the greater good. The game would end up with more of an AD&D feeling which is lacking in the AI now - unpredictability, Imagine the last bugbear of a group - with a few hp of death - tripping the nearest PC and then head-high tailing for another room, where there's a group of ogres who may help protect him - now on alert - kind of similar to the bugbear sentry in the moat-house but more effective. A ranger's Track skill becomes a useful tool and the player a bit more leary about what's around the corner. A total different game full of surprises.
Oh yeah... btw of the subject and I don't recall if it's on this forum or when I was scaning over on co8 but someone requested the addition of a 'chain lightning' scroll - well check out object 9051. Its the only 6th level sorcerer/wizard spell unfortunately though if you have a wizard who's intelligence is high enough to accomodate 6th level slots and learn the spell from that scroll they cannot use it as the radial dial only accomodates up to 5th level spells - so that would have to be changed - they can however craft it as a wand if they have that skill so you can have an endless supply of chain lightning wands.
[QUOTE=Eflat]zhuge,
Yes monster special abilities are important and actually at some revision what really would kick is a major overhaul of the obj_t_npc objects, correcting the strategies, skills, feats, etc... also the san_?...
ie.) Think of this - A typical non-combatant NPC (a woman villager from Nulb) would not stick around and get hacked to death - should they survive the initial assult, they'd attempt to flee to someplace where they'd feel safe and when beaten to within inches of life they'd most definately beg for mercy (dialog). This would be true of even a tough Chaotic neutral/evil NPC - monster too whereas a Lawful good NPC might stick around for more punishment due to a sence of serving the greater good. The game would end up with more of an AD&D feeling which is lacking in the AI now - unpredictability, Imagine the last bugbear of a group - with a few hp of death - tripping the nearest PC and then head-high tailing for another room, where there's a group of ogres who may help protect him - now on alert - kind of similar to the bugbear sentry in the moat-house but more effective. A ranger's Track skill becomes a useful tool and the player a bit more leary about what's around the corner. A total different game full of surprises.[/QUOTE]
These may all be possible but will involve quite a bit of Python scripting and we have yet to have someone in our team who knows Python like the back of his hand.
Simple modifications to strategy.tab and the strategy column of protos.tab should be entirely possible though.
Btw, I've posted some ideas on how to make a new tome and to insert extra content. If you are curious to know how books are coded in ToEE have a look at: http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=987
[QUOTE=Eflat]
Oh yeah... btw of the subject and I don't recall if it's on this forum or when I was scaning over on co8 but someone requested the addition of a 'chain lightning' scroll - well check out object 9051. Its the only 6th level sorcerer/wizard spell unfortunately though if you have a wizard who's intelligence is high enough to accomodate 6th level slots and learn the spell from that scroll they cannot use it as the radial dial only accomodates up to 5th level spells - so that would have to be changed - they can however craft it as a wand if they have that skill so you can have an endless supply of chain lightning wands.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the info. I don't think we can add extra options to the radial dial though. That appears to be hardcoded.
Yes monster special abilities are important and actually at some revision what really would kick is a major overhaul of the obj_t_npc objects, correcting the strategies, skills, feats, etc... also the san_?...
ie.) Think of this - A typical non-combatant NPC (a woman villager from Nulb) would not stick around and get hacked to death - should they survive the initial assult, they'd attempt to flee to someplace where they'd feel safe and when beaten to within inches of life they'd most definately beg for mercy (dialog). This would be true of even a tough Chaotic neutral/evil NPC - monster too whereas a Lawful good NPC might stick around for more punishment due to a sence of serving the greater good. The game would end up with more of an AD&D feeling which is lacking in the AI now - unpredictability, Imagine the last bugbear of a group - with a few hp of death - tripping the nearest PC and then head-high tailing for another room, where there's a group of ogres who may help protect him - now on alert - kind of similar to the bugbear sentry in the moat-house but more effective. A ranger's Track skill becomes a useful tool and the player a bit more leary about what's around the corner. A total different game full of surprises.[/QUOTE]
These may all be possible but will involve quite a bit of Python scripting and we have yet to have someone in our team who knows Python like the back of his hand.
Simple modifications to strategy.tab and the strategy column of protos.tab should be entirely possible though.
Btw, I've posted some ideas on how to make a new tome and to insert extra content. If you are curious to know how books are coded in ToEE have a look at: http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=987
[QUOTE=Eflat]
Oh yeah... btw of the subject and I don't recall if it's on this forum or when I was scaning over on co8 but someone requested the addition of a 'chain lightning' scroll - well check out object 9051. Its the only 6th level sorcerer/wizard spell unfortunately though if you have a wizard who's intelligence is high enough to accomodate 6th level slots and learn the spell from that scroll they cannot use it as the radial dial only accomodates up to 5th level spells - so that would have to be changed - they can however craft it as a wand if they have that skill so you can have an endless supply of chain lightning wands.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the info. I don't think we can add extra options to the radial dial though. That appears to be hardcoded.