Fahrenheit 911 - Michael Moore

[Lazarus]

Well, the movie is out, so I thought I would provide a nice little thread where people can discuss the de/merits of “Fahrenheit 911.”

I did a little searching of SYM to see if I could find any threads dedicated to Michael Moore, but came up with only this one, which discusses his earlier film “Bowling for Columbine.” If you know of any other SYM threads dealing with Moore, feel free to link to them here. Heck, feel free to link to anything about Moore – that’s what I’m gonna do.

So, I thought I would start with this Slate article, by Christopher Hitchens, dealing with the new movie. It’s a lengthy article, but only because it takes so long to list all of the errors, contradictions, and obfuscations in the film.

From the SYM thread linked above, I guess quite a few people here liked “Bowling,” but this site[/URL] is, IMHO, a better indicator of the value of that film.

That site, I guess, was started to respond to the particular film, but a whole slew of sites are dedicated to bashing Moore: Moore Watch; and Moore Lies; and Moore Exposed; and Michael Moore Hates America.

From my selection of sites, you can probably guess I’m no fan of Michael Moore, and you’d be right. Mainstream politicians annoy me because they are (mostly) so washed out and spineless, but I have a hard time really being very upset about them. But people like Michael Moore are something else. I view him, probably, the same way left-leaning people view Bush: as a radical, with no regard for truth, and who will use any means necessary to forward his agenda. Admittedly, the sites linked above do sometimes fall into a bit of that hysteria, but for the most part (and I haven’t even thoroughly examined them all), they appear to gun at Moore for his lies – which are plentiful.

IMO, Moore should be denounced on two fronts: 1) as a liar; and, 2) as a man who holds morally contemptible ideas of politics. So, with that, I will open the thread for debate. What do you think of Moore? Of his movies, his politics, his humor – whatever.

Edit: major link problems! See if that fixed 'em.

[Silur]

Your views of Michael Moore are not in the least bit surprising, and though I agree that he is just as populistic in his presentation of information as your average poltician, I still say he is much more moderate with his twisting of the truth than is the current US government. I don't like the man, but by being one of the few disconcordant voices in the US media I still view him as critical for the survival of the US democracy.

I have not yet seen the film since it doesn't go up on cinemas in Europe until September, but from what I've heard from those who have, it provides a much more accurate view of what has happened and the state of the US nation than any accounts presented by US media in general and right wing media in particular.

Judging from your links, the debate seems to be on a mudslinging level at best, and it is hard to judge what is just rehashing of the usual propaganda stream and what is valid criticism. I'm hoping the hotheaded debate level down a bit so the real issues come into focus instead of the name calling and "liar liar pants on fire"-chanting. On the whole I disagree with your analysis, but will return with further analysis of the actual film after I have seen it.

[Sojourner]

I am familiar with only one of his films, Roger & Me. In that one, he absolutely nailed the issues. I think the negative reaction is due in part to the fact he's holding up the mirror, and people aren't liking what they're seeing.

[Silur]

@Sojourner: Could you go see it? I would be very happy to hear your views on it. It's one of the few movies I really intend to see this year, but it might be another two months before its possible.

[Xandax]

I've not watched Fareheit 9/11 (yet) - but I certainly will, when it gets near me on DVD. I have however seen both "Bowling for Columbine" and "Roger and Me", and some other of his stuff.

Personally - I don't agree with all MMs expresions and oppinions, and I do think that he often oversimplifies matters where it benefits him and "complexifies" (is this even a word? ) likewise when it benefits.
But that dosen't mean I simply write off what he says - many things he states are thought provoking. And if you look at right-wing material and others that don't agree, I'm sure you'll find at least as many simplifications/"complexifications" there.

He has his oppinions which he wants to bring out, as have the people that feel otherwise.
In my oppinion he is very good for America, because here is a person that dares go up against the powers at be (wether it be corporations or the goverment), and he dares express what many people are thinking.
This is *always* neasecary and important in democracies (and societies in general in my oppinion), otherwise we slip closer to totalitarian goverments where people *has* to agree with the people in power.

Instead of trying to de-fame, discredit him or sling mud at him, people that disagree should be thankfull that they live in a nation where somebody publically can state such oppinions. Even if they don't agree with him, or dislike him.

I do however find it tragic the amount of mudslining that happens - just look at the site names "MM hates America". Just because he isn't excatly the right wing's best friend, dosen't mean he hates America. He just has another vision of how things should work, and that is his right.

I hope he continues to produce works (I don't consider his work documentaries, because to me it would imply a neutral stance towards the topics).
But I do hope he produces more, because it is always neasecary with more then one view of situtations.
The only some correct in the saying, that there is three sides to a story - yours, mine and the thruth.

edit: corrected a few of my many typos/spelling errors

[dragon wench]

[QUOTE=Xandax]Instead of trying to de-fame, discredit him or sling mud at him, people that disagree should be thankfull that they live in a nation where somebody publically can state such oppinions. Even if they don't agree with him, or dislike him.

I do however find it tragic the amount of mudslining that happens - just look at the site names "MM hates America". Just because he isn't excatly the right wing's best friend, dosen't mean he hates America. He just has another vision of how things should work, and that is his right.

I hope he continues to produce works (I don't consider his work documentaries, because to me it would imply a neutral stance towards the topics).
But I do hope he produces more, because it is always neasecary with more then one view of situtations.
The only some correct in the saying, that there is three sides to a story - yours, mine and the thruth. [/QUOTE]

I agree... I think that the reaction to the film is yet another reflection of the Bush administration's "you are either with us or against us" mentality. IMO, there are always many shades of grey, nothing is ever starkly clear cut.... I recognise that many people are bashing Moore precisely because they believe him to be lacking in objectivity, and not having seen the movie yet, I can't comment. But I think it is unfortunate that all too often we only ever see reactionary extremes rather than balanced and thoughtful discussion.

[humanflyz]

It's funny how when I came home after watching Fahrenheit 9/11, the first site I visited was SYM, and this thread caught my eye.

Personally, I don't really care if Michael Moore is being biased or not, because let's face it, this movie will not change any opinions. I am still going to believe that Bush "stole" the election, lied to us about WMDs, and now have no exit strategy for Iraq. On the other hand, people who are on the other side of the political spectrum will probably still believe whatever it is that they believe in. To put it blatantly, Fahrenheit 9/11 is a partisan rally-cry, and I am fine with that. If conservatives in the media can be biased, then why not liberals?

And besides, if one is really serious about researching the issues, one shouldn't just rely on Michael Moore to tell them the "truth" so to speak. This movie is just a medium for Michael Moore to tell the American public what he thinks is going on. If one doesn't like his message, then one doesn't have to see it. All this backlash and negative press against the movie I feel is completely unnecesary. In fact, it'll probably only make more people want to see it, a la Passion of the Christ.

Personally, I liked the movie. It's more serious than other Moore movies, and a lot of the things, humorous on the surface, really become unsettling when looked closer. For example, there's a scene showing Bush practicing all sort of facial expression before addressing the nation that the war against Iraq has officially started. It may be funny to watch, but when you think about it, it's actually quite disturbing. Then there are certain parts of the movie where it gets really emotional. The feeling that I end up with after watching the movie is a feeling of incompleteness, but not in a bad way. Like watching other Michael Moore movies, I seem to be left with other questions, not any answers. And I guess that's what Moore intended to do: to provoke his audience into thinking about these issues that he has brought up. Yes, sometimes his movies border on demogaguery (sp?), but I value a dissenting voice in an American society that's continously pressured to be "loyal" so to speak.

[Chanak]

I suppose I see value in Moore's films simply from the view that any creative work, such as a film or book, that causes you to think and reflect on the issues it raises, is a good thing. We really need more of that, for more people might find themselves seeking knowledge...and (gasp) actually finding themselves making more informed decisions.

[Bloodthroe]

Well I did hear that Michael Moore has a really bad reputation.

[Xandax]

[QUOTE=Bloodthroe]Well I did hear that Michael Moore has a really bad reputation.[/QUOTE]

Mostly only from the people that disagree (strongly) with his views. Many other people thinks he has a great reputation.

[dragon wench]

[QUOTE=Bloodthroe]Well I did hear that Michael Moore has a really bad reputation.[/QUOTE]I would hope you plan to actually investigate Moore's work yourself and form your own opinion, rather than simply relying upon what you've heard elsewhere....

[Bloodthroe]

[QUOTE=dragon wench]I would hope you plan to actually investigate Moore's work yourself and form your own opinion, rather than simply relying upon what you've heard elsewhere.... [/QUOTE]Well gee... by saying I HEARD this. I would insinuate that it's not my own opinion (it's someone elses), but I guess I was wrong.

Maybe you should quit finding reasons to start some kind of argument.

[Xandax]

The last statement was very much on the line of the forum rules.

#1 - Flaming, humiliating, ridiculing, or belittling other members will not be tolerated. If you have an issue with another member, take it to private messages or email.

Your former post did leave much up to interpretation, and if you wanted to explain yourself, you could do so calmly and rationally, instead of "suggesting" that all people want to do, is pick a fight/argument with you.

__________________
GameBanshee - Make Your Gaming Scream
Forum rules

[Bloodthroe]

I don't recall dragon taking any precautions in preventing flaming. By insinuating that I'm some idiot that believes everything he hears and then type the eyeroll. However, next time I decide to repeat that I heard something and did not say it was my own opinion. I will do so without the sarcasm and suggesting that the person is looking to insult me.

Satisfied Xan?

[Weasel]

[QUOTE=Lazarus]
IMO, Moore should be denounced on two fronts: 1) as a liar; and, 2) as a man who holds morally contemptible ideas of politics.
[/QUOTE]

This covers about all politicians and political advisors.

My two cents..

I will not waste my money on seeing a film made by the right bashing the left, so why should I waste my money on seeing a film with the left bashing the right.

[Xandax]

[QUOTE=Bloodthroe]I don't recall dragon taking any precautions in preventing flaming. By insinuating that I'm some idiot that believes everything he hears and then type the eyeroll. However, next time I decide to repeat that I heard something and did not say it was my own opinion. I will do so without the sarcasm and suggesting that the person is looking to insult me.

Satisfied Xan?[/QUOTE]


I read DWs reply also and found nothing in it, especially because your post gave no indication wether or not you belived it. So it was open to a serious amount of interpretation.

But also, if you feel offended by posts (or actions), you can either ask them to explain, for instance via PMs as the rules suggest, or "report it", in which case you can be sure it will be looked at. Or you can adress it camly in the thread.

__________________
GameBanshee - Make Your Gaming Scream
Forum rules

[Xandax]

[QUOTE=Weasel]This covers about all politicians and political advisors.

My two cents..

I will not waste my money on seeing a film made by the right bashing the left, so why should I waste my money on seeing a film with the left bashing the right. [/QUOTE]

Because it is fun to watch political sides bash at each other ...
(for the outside observer of course )

[Weasel]

[QUOTE=Xandax]Because it is fun to watch political sides bash at each other ...
(for the outside observer of course )[/QUOTE]


Well this I can agree on.

The cost to see the movie though..(ie) selling my first born child*).. is not worth the entertainment. Also add in gas (nearest place this watch a movie is over 50 miles away from me), having to watch one small child and one teen who thinks she is grown in a confine space for almost 2 hours and feeding them the snacks at the place (ie) selling other child*)..I believe I will just stick to a dvd at home.


(I will watch it when it comes out for rental though. )

[Xandax]

[QUOTE=Weasel] Well this I can agree on.

The cost to see the movie though..(ie) selling my first born child*).. is not worth the entertainment. Also add in gas (nearest place this watch a movie is over 50 miles away from me), having to watch one small child and one teen who thinks she is grown in a confine space for almost 2 hours and feeding them the snacks at the place (ie) selling other child*)..I believe I will just stick to a dvd at home.


(I will watch it when it comes out for rental though. )[/QUOTE]

Well if you put that way ......
(although .... after selling the children, can't you just get more? )

But seriously .... I'll proberly also just wait for the DVD I'm not that big a fan of MM, to actually go to the movies to see it. I prefere owning the DVDs, so I can look up stuff in a pinch .... (or have a shining beer mat if it is bad)

But I do think his work is worth viewing regardless of political stance, if nothing else for the perspective, so I will buy it eventually.

[Nightmare]

I like Michael Moore. Yes, he sensationalizes most of his work and its not really objective. But, his merit is in the fact that whenever he asks questions, the answers are usually hesistant and uncomfortable. Also, he doesn't exclusively bash Republicans, either...IIRC, he's bashed Democrats numerous times as well.