Kundane+Belm: the limits of cheese, powergaming, and roleplaying

two · Post by **two** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 7:20 pm

OK I'm just wondering what everybody thinks, particularly those of y'all that are into roleplaying and not into perceived powergaming of any kind.

Let's say you have a bard, or thief, or some other class that just gets one attack per round period. This is pretty weak in melee and your character certainly "knows" this.

You come across a great short sword that doubles your number of attacks (kundane). Later, you come across a great scimitar that does the same (belm). You realize that by dual wielding these two you are getting 4 attacks/round, equal to a fighter that you have been eyeing with some not-small jealousy.

It makes perfect roleplaying sense for a character that often gets into melee to want to do "as good as they can." If only for the safety of their own skin/their party member's skin.

So where does this stop? Do you think belm+kundane is just cheese on top of cheese?

Or is it a valid roleplaying move?

Or do you do it, and feel guilty about it afterwards, but not guilty enough to stop?

Just wondering...

Meerlight · Post by **Meerlight** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 7:54 pm

Kundane adds to attacks per round? I never noticed this. Its not in the description. In the description it just says Kundane is a special shortsword because it has no speed factor. Are you sure you're thinking of Kundane?

two · Post by **two** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 8:13 pm

Originally posted by Meerlight:
Kundane adds to attacks per round? I never noticed this. Its not in the description. In the description it just says Kundane is a special shortsword because it has no speed factor. Are you sure you're thinking of Kundane?

Dude, it totally does. Check it out. You will see. It's not listed but it is a legitimate effect.

Kundane is a very special sort of short sword...

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 8:20 pm

I've used the kundane + belm combo and for some reason you don't get four attacks per round. I used the auto pause by round and was simply not getting four attacks per round. Imagine how sick it would if it worked:

fighter
two weapon style +++
short sword +++
scimitar +++

you could get up to 5 or 6 attacks/rd and then improved haste for ten to twelve but it just doesn't seem to work. You'd be shelling out over 100 points of damage per round easily.

two · Post by **two** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 8:26 pm

Originally posted by Ned Flanders:
I've used the kundane + belm combo and for some reason you don't get four attacks per round. I used the auto pause by round and was simply not getting four attacks per round. Imagine how sick it would if it worked:

fighter
two weapon style +++
short sword +++
scimitar +++

you could get up to 5 or 6 attacks/rd and then improved haste for ten to twelve but it just doesn't seem to work. You'd be shelling out over 100 points of damage per round easily.

This is really a big question. There seem to be a lot of bugs associated with number of attacks/round.

I can tell you for certain that kundane DOES allow a fighter-type to get 5 attacks/round. I did a test with a Wizard Slayer with grandmastery in axes and kundane off-hand. Using the auto-pause techniqute, I could COUNT 5 attacks a round (actually he was at 9/2 rounds, but it DID go 5/4/5/4 etc.). This was when he was just level 13 or so, later I bet he could get 5/round every round, 10 with imp. haste.

Same with Kundane/Belm, I did this combo with my bard for a while and I was certain I was getting 4 attacks/round. I don't know. Maybe this is partly a boots of speed thing, that messes stuff up I hear.

Also I read somewhere that the autopause thing does not work correctly if you are wearing boots of speed, it actually pauses every round and a half? Jeez, it's just a mess. I really don't know for absolute certain.

But try it out, Thief with Kundane/Belm. Don't it seem like he's getting 4/round? Way more effective in melee? Then slap an improved haste on him. Ain't he a cuisinart?

Oh BTW just give your fighter CromF (when you get it) and cast Improved Haste on him. He'll hit 8 times a round for well over 100 damage total. I mean well over 100. It's quite possible to do 200+ per round. Lasts as long as your mage's imp. haste. That's why CromF is so freakin' sick!

[ 09-04-2001: Message edited by: two ]

Meerlight · Post by **Meerlight** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 8:33 pm

Dude Kundane adds attacks per round! I sold that would be piece of crap because I thought my shortsword +3 was better! ok i gotta go hunt it down...

Once a thief gets the Use any item he can use the Scarlet Ninja-to! which is even better than kundane or belm. Scarlet Cuisinart!

two · Post by **two** » Tue Sep 04, 2001 8:37 pm

Originally posted by Meerlight:
Dude Kundane adds attacks per round! I sold that would be piece of crap because I thought my shortsword +3 was better! ok i gotta go hunt it down... Once a thief gets the Use any item he can use the Scarlet Ninja-to! which is even better than kundane or belm. Scarlet Cuisinart!

Oh no doubt. Scarlet N-to is the ultimate off-hand weapon. It doesn't hit baddies that require +4 or better but...hey. How many of them are there around?

This was the first thing I did when I got Use any Item... Bought this weapon. Took it all through TOB, nothing comes close for off-hand. Use CromF or sometimes a vorpal/undead slaying weapon in your other hand. End of game.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Wed Sep 05, 2001 12:11 am

I tried it, and got 4 attacks per round with both swords, but imoen had no prof in two handed at all, so I think I was getting penalties.

I cast imp haaste on her, and she was hitting 4 times a round! I think with massive prof in two handed, I should get up to 8 hits per round with imp. haste fore korgan!

Forget greater whirlwind, even with 6-8 hits per round, if I use answer in tob and axe of unyielding or foe bane, Were talking about some massive damage here!

Oh, and did anyone notice you get 2 attacks per round with belm in main hand, but 3 attacks with it on the off hand?

Anyway, this almost makes the ravager and other two handed weapons irrelevent in the game, the axe of unyeilding, the only one handed vorpal weapon, is now the uber weapon of choice, and korgan is now better than savarok!!!!

I'll keep two ahnded weapons for special situations, like gram or ravager when I want poison damage, and soul reaver for thac0 damage, and when I want to use crossbow with greater whirlwind, but for super fast meelee, when fighting a lot of taargets, axe of unyeilding, or crom feyr or foebane in the lead hand, and the answerer, which I think has the same benefits, should do very well. have to get korgy up in dual wield asap...

Yep, this is so sick its disgusting!!!

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Sep 05, 2001 2:50 am

I know (from extensive personal experience) that Belm +2 and Melf's Minute Meteors do not go together... Resets your attacks to about 2 per round.

Dual-wielding with MMMs will let you make the off-hand attack, though, and even from a distance.

Yanlee · Post by **Yanlee** » Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:04 am

@two- good questions

I think that it is a valid roleplaying option, as I agree that your character would look to maximise the usefulness of any equipment found.

The problem is that many people do not "find" these items because they prepare characters specifically to use these items, or even edit proficiencies during the game. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be able to do this, I'm just saying that it isn't true roleplaying.

For instance, if you start a fighter or thief, then you should choose weapons and proficiencies that suit your character. If, during the game, you discover a fantastic weapon, then you decide if you want to start specialising in that weapon.

It seems pretty weak (for roleplaying) to create a fighter specialised in flails because you know the flail of ages is coming up.

speedball · Post by **speedball** » Wed Sep 05, 2001 6:29 am

I don't think it is cheese. Short sword is a perfectly reasonable weapon for a thief to use.

Short sword AND scimitar, though, seems kinda cheesy as far as role-playing. Would your character really learn how to use two of the main edged weapons for thieves, and not learn a blunt weapon or something else? If he really would, then go ahead. Otherwise, I have to sound the "cheese alarm" IMO.

speedball · Post by **speedball** » Wed Sep 05, 2001 6:31 am

Sorry. That last post should have said "I don't think it is cheese to use the short sword".

seanthony · Post by **seanthony** » Wed Sep 05, 2001 6:40 am

haha.. IMO.. its just all good.. hehe.. who's complaining in getting 4+ attackers per round anyway!!?? hehe