anti-semetic attack in France

GNGSpam · Post by **GNGSpam** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:27 am

A painful reminder that the US doesn't have a monopoly of the darker side of humanity.

Gang Attacks Mother on French Train

PARIS - A gang of young men attacked a woman riding a suburban train with her infant, cutting her hair and drawing swastikas on her stomach. Other passengers watched but did nothing, police reported. (I am assuming yellow means "quote" correct?)

What is particularly noteworthy to me is that fact that no one did anything. While there will always be a small number of terrible people willing to do terrible things, there is no excuse for ordinary people being unwilling to do anything.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:21 pm

Well - I wish things were black and white, but in such a case it never is.

Of course it is appaling that somebody gets attacked, but I wonder what the other passengers could have done. Afterall it dosen't mention the number of passengers. Also - the article states that most likely some from the gang were armed with knives. If confronted there could likely have been worse consequences - possible ending with fatality of either mother or the infant, or somebody third.

Therefore - while it is sad and morally wrong that nobody did anything - I can fully understand it. People couldn't know if this gang was armed with more then knives. One person with a gun and it could have escalated beyond belif.

I don't know how I'd react to such a situation, but I think my reaction would likely be much more cautious now, then say 5-8 years ago. But I think everybody would want to react, but with all due respect, the fear of getting hurt bad, or possible even killed, is a powerfull restrain on behavior and "wants".

Things are never black and white.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:10 pm

[QUOTE=GNGSpam]A painful reminder that the US doesn't have a monopoly of the darker side of humanity.

Gang Attacks Mother on French Train

PARIS - A gang of young men attacked a woman riding a suburban train with her infant, cutting her hair and drawing swastikas on her stomach. Other passengers watched but did nothing, police reported. (I am assuming yellow means "quote" correct?)

What is particularly noteworthy to me is that fact that no one did anything. While there will always be a small number of terrible people willing to do terrible things, there is no excuse for ordinary people being unwilling to do anything.[/QUOTE]

There are only two reactions I feel that can describe what someone should feel after hearing that sort of news (unless you were neo-Nazi in politic) and that is despair or anger. Probably both.

The problem is that people now think that another person will do something. "I know he'll stop the assault" (replace with whatever) and people just don't anymore. People put the onus of responsibility on others and don't take anything on their own shoulders. Would I do anything? I don't know. I'd like to think I would, I've seen a similar thing before and intervened, but I've never seen that. I wouldn't like to think that some people could drive themselves to do it.

For the people who did nothing, we can question why they didn't - as would I, but I feel that we can't blame them because you have to wonder whether they would've been hurt only worsening the situation (if it could've been worse).

[QUOTE=GNGSpam]A painful reminder that the US doesn't have a monopoly of the darker side of humanity.[/QUOTE]

I don't think thats a kind of statement that helps either. Why insinuate that an entire nation act in a similar to these people or worse? I can guarantee that unless you live in a one person country someone else can be just as "evil". Generalistic remarks like that serve to help international unity like the Nazi's in the article. Congratulations for tarring and feathering 293,027,571 people with the same brush. I hope that just one person would do a similar thing to honour your remarks. And no, I'm not from the States so I'm not sticking up for them for the sake of it.

Lost One · Post by **Lost One** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:17 pm

A painful reminder that the US doesn't have a monopoly of the darker side of humanity.

I don't think thats a kind of statement that helps either. Why insinuate that an entire nation act in a similar to these people or worse?

The way I interpreted his statement is under the light of international media focusing on American violence (whether it is abusing Iraqi prisoners or domestic violence such as the Columbine murders), which sometimes gives out the false image that the US is the only horrible place where a crazy wacko can get a machine gun and shoot people in schools. In other words, as the US receives prime attention from the rest of the world...and with films such as American Beauty or Michael Moore's, there is a zoom on violence in the US like there has never been before, leading TV watchers or news readers to believe that America is the epicentre of violence. As we know, this is not true, violence exists everywhere and usually in similar measures, and so, I do not believe GNGSpam made a bad statement...he just affirmed that it is not the US that cointains all the violence of the world. Did his comment have to be picked apart?

Generalistic remarks like that serve to help international unity like the Nazi's in the article. Congratulations for tarring and feathering 293,027,571 people with the same brush. I hope that just one person would do a similar thing to honour your remarks.

Right...do you think his one-line comment deserved that kind of attitude Nippy? In my opinion, there was nothing dishonourable about his post. In fact, when he states that 'there is no excuse for ordinary people being unwilling to do anything' it pretty much states his good intentions. I think that kind of sarcasm was unwarranted Nippy, and it is what drives young posters away from this forum.

(I am assuming yellow means "quote" correct?)

Nope, you have to use the quote box from the icons list or simply

text [/pQUOTE] (ignore the p...I just put it there so it wouldn't wrap).

Back to topic, I sincerely believe if there is anything that can be done in situations like this, it should be done. However, I would not taken on agressors by fighting them myself (dealing violence with more violence generally does more harm than good). What I would do, and have done in this crazy, crime-filled city I live in, is simply call for the authorities (police) and let them handle it. Even if it means stalking the gang. I once ran after some pivetes (young scoundrels) with a neighbour from my building as they were robbing a car, we pulled a cop on the chase, and managed to catch some of them. We basically brought justice into our own hands until we found a cop, and it was actually thanks to a guy in a nearby bus shouting at the pivetes that it was brought to our attention.

GNGSpam · Post by **GNGSpam** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:55 pm

[QUOTE=Nippy]
I don't think thats a kind of statement that helps either. Why insinuate that an entire nation act in a similar to these people or worse? I can guarantee that unless you live in a one person country someone else can be just as "evil". Generalistic remarks like that serve to help international unity like the Nazi's in the article. Congratulations for tarring and feathering 293,027,571 people with the same brush. I hope that just one person would do a similar thing to honour your remarks. And no, I'm not from the States so I'm not sticking up for them for the sake of it.[/QUOTE]

I think you are being exceedingly unfair. Such an unwarrented attack like this, resulting from a complete and total misunderstanding of what I had originally wrote, is probably a large reason for the so-called "break down of community" that this community has recently been discussing.

In the sense of understanding however, that we all make mistakes, and considering "Lost One" has made each of my points already, we can consider the matter dead, unless of course you wish to apologize.

As to whether the people should do something or not. I am not sure. In some instances, obviously there is nothing to do. If someone has a gun to someone elses head, you undoubtly will cause more harm then good. If you are not exactly of great physical stature (such as a child or the elderly) what can you do?

For me, personnally, I would have to do something. In that situation, where they basically didn't cause her much harm, I probably would have made the situation worse. They probably would have hurt me. She probably wouldn't have been hurt anyways, but possibly in the scuffle she would.

The thing is, when the guy pulls a knife out, and they obviously crowd around her with hostile intentions, how is anyone supposed to know that this wont turn out horrible. Could it be a kidnapping, a murder, what?

All I know is that as soon as I thought they would hurt her, I would feel compelled to offer myself up. Yes I would probably get hurt, but then I would think the likelyhood is that as soon as they hurt me, beat on me, theyll run. At the very least it would seem to give her a better chance of escaping unscathed.

And beyond that, if just one person stood up, if just one person put themselves in danger, who knows who else would find the courage behind them?

To many situations come down to the need for one soul to have the courage and guts to do whats needed, whats right. Just one example can provide so much courage to others.

To often though people do convince themselves "what can I do? There are more then me? I will only get hurt"

So very practical. But I do wish people spent more time thinking "what should I do? What is right here?"

But no, I blame no one. We are all flawed creatures, and while I certainly hope I would live up to all I have wrote, I won't truthfully know if I will or won't until the moment is upon me.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:30 pm

I was really appalled to read of this incident, and even more appalled that *nobody* raised a finger to help. Sadly, however, this is not a new phenomenon.... police and court records (amongst others) are full of incidents where bystanders have simply watched and done nothing while another is attacked, sexually assaulted or murdered.

Flame me if you want, but I think it is exceedingly difficult to justify abstaining from action in a case like this. The only possible exception is if somebody has a dependent, like a young child or elderly person, with them....

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:39 pm

[QUOTE=dragon wench]Flame me if you want, but I think it is exceedingly difficult to justify abstaining from action in a case like this.[/QUOTE]

So do I, especially since whatever you choose to do or not do in that situation it is likely to rub of on other peoples behaviour, both on the spot and in the future.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:19 pm

A sad and disgusting racist attack. Like DW however, I find it sad but not the least surprising, that nobody raised a finger to help. I would have been more surprised if people had helped out. This may sound cynical, but controlled scientific studies in social psychology and events in everyday life point in the same direction: When in groups, people are generally unwilling to help each other out. (This goes for the Western world, I have no data from other cultures but there may be cultural differences.)

Numerous cases of violent crimes committed before the very eyes of hundredes of passive people, have been reported. Some years ago we had a case of rape committed in the middle of the day in the Stockholm underground, where a lonely, unarmed man raped a woman whereas hundreds or perhaps thousands of people just passed by and didn't even call the police. As horrible as it is, this actually seems to be the normative behaviour. Are any of you familiar with the Kitty Genovese-case? If not, I'll give a brief account here:

In 1964, the 28-year old woman Kitty Genovese walked home from her job as a bar manager early in the morning. On the way to her flat in Queens, NY, a man with a knife attacked her. During approximately half an hour, Kitty Genovese was stabbed several times, escaped, screamed our for help, was stabbed again, etc, before 38 eyewitnesses in the house opposite. People were actually standing in the windows looking, but nobody called the police until the woman was already dead. The sole person who finally called the police was a neighbour who only decided to phone after much pondering and a phone conversation with a friend. His explanation for waiting so long was the infamous "I didn't want to get involved".

This case drew much attention, not least from social psychologists. Studies using actors to fake cardiac arrests and epilepsia grand mal seizures were performed, both at urban streets and in controlled laboratory environments. Different variables were tested, such as distance to the person in urge, group size of the witnesses, demographic characteristics of the victim v the witness etc. If anyone is interested I can describe many such studies in more detail, but the conclusion of all these studies were that what is now known as the diffusion of responsibility is the normal, common behaviour. If a person is alone, or in a very small group, they are much more likely to act. If you get a cardiac arrest before a lonely bypasser, it is very likely that this person will call for help. If you get a cardiac arrest before 1000 people, it is much less likely that anyone will call for help in time, since people tend to think that "somebody else is doing it".

Thus, I don't want to condemn these particular people not acting any more than all other people who do not act in similar situations. This passivity is obviously a general human feature, albeit I dislike it strongly. However, in this French case I can agree with Xandax that it understandable (although undesired) that many people don't dare to act when there is a gang of six men armed with at least one knife (they cut the woman's hair with a knife so we know they must have had at least one). On the other hand, if a group of people had agreed to team up against the perpertraitor's, they most likely would have been scared off. So - whereas I don't find it justifyable, I find it understandable why people not act.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:55 am

GNGSpam wrote:I think you are being exceedingly unfair. Such an unwarrented attack like this, resulting from a complete and total misunderstanding of what I had originally wrote, is probably a large reason for the so-called "break down of community" that this community has recently been discussing.

In the sense of understanding however, that we all make mistakes, and considering "Lost One" has made each of my points already, we can consider the matter dead, unless of course you wish to apologize.

As to whether the people should do something or not. I am not sure. In some instances, obviously there is nothing to do. If someone has a gun to someone elses head, you undoubtly will cause more harm then good. If you are not exactly of great physical stature (such as a child or the elderly) what can you do?

For me, personnally, I would have to do something. In that situation, where they basically didn't cause her much harm, I probably would have made the situation worse. They probably would have hurt me. She probably wouldn't have been hurt anyways, but possibly in the scuffle she would.

The thing is, when the guy pulls a knife out, and they obviously crowd around her with hostile intentions, how is anyone supposed to know that this wont turn out horrible. Could it be a kidnapping, a murder, what?

All I know is that as soon as I thought they would hurt her, I would feel compelled to offer myself up. Yes I would probably get hurt, but then I would think the likelyhood is that as soon as they hurt me, beat on me, theyll run. At the very least it would seem to give her a better chance of escaping unscathed.

And beyond that, if just one person stood up, if just one person put themselves in danger, who knows who else would find the courage behind them?

To many situations come down to the need for one soul to have the courage and guts to do whats needed, whats right. Just one example can provide so much courage to others.

To often though people do convince themselves "what can I do? There are more then me? I will only get hurt"

So very practical. But I do wish people spent more time thinking "what should I do? What is right here?"

But no, I blame no one. We are all flawed creatures, and while I certainly hope I would live up to all I have wrote, I won't truthfully know if I will or won't until the moment is upon me.

I will apologise for a generalistic remark, I shouldn't of made it and I knew that you disliked the attack as much as anyone, the problem I had with what you say is that there has been many attacks (I hate the word attacks. It's too agressive...) against the US recently that are unfair.

At least we can agree about this appalling act!

@ Lost One

I think that kind of sarcasm was unwarranted Nippy, and it is what drives young posters away from this forum.

Young posters? Like me? I feel strongly and have always been a passionate person. Thats not an excuse, its a fact and sometimes I say things more strongly than I would do in another argument.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:09 am

[QUOTE=Nippy]<snip>
@ Lost One

Young posters? Like me? I feel strongly and have always been a passionate person. Thats not an excuse, its a fact and sometimes I say things more strongly than I would do in another argument.[/QUOTE]

I think Lost One means young as in post-count/age on forum, rather then real life age.

I didn't excatly notice the "A painful reminder that the US doesn't have a monopoly of the darker side of humanity" remark when I first posted, but it *is* very open for interpretation, and I can certainly see why Nippy understood it as he did.
But I also think he overreacted a tad, and could have handled it differently (which I think he also knows

)

So - back on topic instead

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:51 am

Seems the police in France has difficulties in finding clues.

cnn article

Surveillance cameras at the station where the culprits reportedly left the train showed no young men running from the scene, and no witnesses have come forward despite repeated calls from officials and promises of anonymity.

CM · Post by CM » Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:02 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3889549.stm

BBC had more to add:

Police are advising caution as their investigations continue, noting that there are some contradictions in the woman's account.

French media report that the young woman has filed several complaints in the past about being the victim of violence.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:31 am

Seems she lied about the attack
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europ ... index.html

Although it still seems pretty sketchy, because:

"She admitted to inventing the whole thing," the judicial source said.

It would have been nice with a named source from the police or something similar.