Ahhh, someone brought that up awhile back whether a Chaotic Good, or any other class outside Lawful Good and Evil would take the "good" path. My take is, if it were a party member, a Chaotic Good character like a Ranger would sacrifice a part of his life to save the friend. They do put friends ahead of anything else unlike Paladins who will place most of everyone else. If it were an innocent, then they debate. If it were an evil party member, the Chaotic Good will probably tell him to rot, and so on.
Yes, a Fallen AD&D Paladin will become a regular Fighter of the same level and not XP. They lose the XP as part of the punishment. They can regain their status by repenting to a high level cleric and peform some feat worthy to reacknowledge him or her as a Paladin again. It depends on the severity of the crime though. Some crimes they will forever be scarred and like a fallen angel, forever cast away.
problems in Hell
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bullions27
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"What we have here is a failure to communicate." - Cool Hand Luke
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I THINK SOME PEOPLE HERE DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT RPG IS REALLY ABOUT.
from reading the answers of some people to this topic i realised that a lot of u out there are power gamers.
Your characters probably have 18 strenght, 18 dexterity, 18 constitution, 18 wisdom, 18 intelligents and 18 charisma.
Ever heard of a half-orc with charisma 18 (Maybe their are 1 or 2 but i dont think that their are many)????
OKE i must admit that rpg's have the tendency to stick to stereo types, but ROLE PLAYING gives you the chance to be a totally other person. So pls try it ones(you will enjoy bg2 a lot more), instead of playing bg2 as you would play quake 3.
As for the paladin question, doing evil things will not make you an falen paladin instantly (exept if your dm is really strict). A paladin is a paladin as long as the community looks upon him as one. Any "evil" paladin will eventually become a fallen paladin but a smart paladin can use is intelligents to cover up his evilness (not for ever though).
ANY PATH YOU TAKE THAT LEADS TO THE DESTRUCTION OF AN OTHER THAT YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED IS NOT AN OPTION FOR A REAL PALADIN.
So either do the good thing or become an evil fighter
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beer-for-love
from reading the answers of some people to this topic i realised that a lot of u out there are power gamers.
Your characters probably have 18 strenght, 18 dexterity, 18 constitution, 18 wisdom, 18 intelligents and 18 charisma.
Ever heard of a half-orc with charisma 18 (Maybe their are 1 or 2 but i dont think that their are many)????
OKE i must admit that rpg's have the tendency to stick to stereo types, but ROLE PLAYING gives you the chance to be a totally other person. So pls try it ones(you will enjoy bg2 a lot more), instead of playing bg2 as you would play quake 3.
As for the paladin question, doing evil things will not make you an falen paladin instantly (exept if your dm is really strict). A paladin is a paladin as long as the community looks upon him as one. Any "evil" paladin will eventually become a fallen paladin but a smart paladin can use is intelligents to cover up his evilness (not for ever though).
ANY PATH YOU TAKE THAT LEADS TO THE DESTRUCTION OF AN OTHER THAT YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED IS NOT AN OPTION FOR A REAL PALADIN.
So either do the good thing or become an evil fighter
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beer-for-love
beer-for-love
Lots of miscellanous things here starting to turn into a book...oh well...
I have both powergamer and roleplayer sides to my playing style. On computer games I have a hard time taking the roleplaying too seriously. My first time through I actually roleplayed it though, took the good side on everything and didn't think twice about the consequences even if they really hurt...
I think the problem with the 'selfish' test is that it should be a PERMANENT death. A temporary death in this game is almost meaningless -- it just hurts a little then everything is fine again. Taking the hurt for my chaotic good sorcerer would have been something Minsc was happy to do and my sorcerer was willing to let him, just like when Minsc killed the guy in the Copper Coronet when my sorcerer wouldn't fight him (I was out of spells).
Even as a powergamer, I min/max within the rules. Edited characters are no fun...there has to be a challenge. Of course, that is the difference between a powergamer and a munchkin.
At the same time, GM's need to realize that people enjoy role-playing certain characters and it becomes much less fun if the characters are changed beyond a certain point. In one game I was role-playing a thief who was mediocre at best, but when he lost an eye I had him commit suicide. There was no way in the game to restore it and I didn't want to play him anymore. I would have used a 'fate point' which normally are reserved to avoid death to save the eye, but the GM didn't allow me to and the character had lost its interest for me.
I might intentionally choose to play a character with one eye, despite the severe penalties, but that would be because it fits my picture for that character. Sometimes I can enjoy changing that picture...other times it ruins the story for me.
Similarly, after the gaming session once I had an out of character discussion with the GM who thought it would be humorous for my paladin to have a giant hamster for his Warhorse. If it had been a Minsc type character that would have been a completely different story, but it didn't fit the family history story line/background I had put together for the paladin, not to mention being very humiliating for ANY paladin. At least this GM was reasonable about it and was able to work the story around so that it was appropriate in the end. (I think GM's love harassing paladins!)
With the thief that lost his eye, I found it humourous that the character I rolled subsequently was a powergamer's dream and a GM's nightmare. I would have been very happy sticking with the mediocre thief.
[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 11-27-2000).]
I have both powergamer and roleplayer sides to my playing style. On computer games I have a hard time taking the roleplaying too seriously. My first time through I actually roleplayed it though, took the good side on everything and didn't think twice about the consequences even if they really hurt...
I think the problem with the 'selfish' test is that it should be a PERMANENT death. A temporary death in this game is almost meaningless -- it just hurts a little then everything is fine again. Taking the hurt for my chaotic good sorcerer would have been something Minsc was happy to do and my sorcerer was willing to let him, just like when Minsc killed the guy in the Copper Coronet when my sorcerer wouldn't fight him (I was out of spells).
Even as a powergamer, I min/max within the rules. Edited characters are no fun...there has to be a challenge. Of course, that is the difference between a powergamer and a munchkin.
At the same time, GM's need to realize that people enjoy role-playing certain characters and it becomes much less fun if the characters are changed beyond a certain point. In one game I was role-playing a thief who was mediocre at best, but when he lost an eye I had him commit suicide. There was no way in the game to restore it and I didn't want to play him anymore. I would have used a 'fate point' which normally are reserved to avoid death to save the eye, but the GM didn't allow me to and the character had lost its interest for me.
I might intentionally choose to play a character with one eye, despite the severe penalties, but that would be because it fits my picture for that character. Sometimes I can enjoy changing that picture...other times it ruins the story for me.
Similarly, after the gaming session once I had an out of character discussion with the GM who thought it would be humorous for my paladin to have a giant hamster for his Warhorse. If it had been a Minsc type character that would have been a completely different story, but it didn't fit the family history story line/background I had put together for the paladin, not to mention being very humiliating for ANY paladin. At least this GM was reasonable about it and was able to work the story around so that it was appropriate in the end. (I think GM's love harassing paladins!)
With the thief that lost his eye, I found it humourous that the character I rolled subsequently was a powergamer's dream and a GM's nightmare. I would have been very happy sticking with the mediocre thief.
[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 11-27-2000).]
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bullions27
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Holy crosses and water!
If people are going to bring up the question who is a power gamer and who is a role player based on what I've read, I'm going to need to ask as well who knows how to role play AD&D and who does not?
By the way, yes a Paladin will immediately lose his powers upon committing an evil act and this includes his clerical spells because it's a deity blessing, not inherant magic. A Paladin is NOT a Paladin through the eyes of his people.
He is a Paladin through the eyes of his deity. His people praise his name, but they do not bless him with his powers.
No exceptions on crime. If the GM is going to be lenient and have a Paladin PC go Ah-Nuld on a few villagers for the heck of it and then make up by slaying a few dragons, he is a horrid GM and I would immediately have him change. It wouldn't be roleplaying, it would be called silliness.
[This message has been edited by bullions27 (edited 11-27-2000).]
If people are going to bring up the question who is a power gamer and who is a role player based on what I've read, I'm going to need to ask as well who knows how to role play AD&D and who does not?
By the way, yes a Paladin will immediately lose his powers upon committing an evil act and this includes his clerical spells because it's a deity blessing, not inherant magic. A Paladin is NOT a Paladin through the eyes of his people.
He is a Paladin through the eyes of his deity. His people praise his name, but they do not bless him with his powers. No exceptions on crime. If the GM is going to be lenient and have a Paladin PC go Ah-Nuld on a few villagers for the heck of it and then make up by slaying a few dragons, he is a horrid GM and I would immediately have him change. It wouldn't be roleplaying, it would be called silliness.
[This message has been edited by bullions27 (edited 11-27-2000).]
"What we have here is a failure to communicate." - Cool Hand Luke
JBullions' TeamBG Custom Items
JBullions' TeamBG Custom Items
Nighthawk you are right ofcourse. Although i did not mean killing people but things like:
-picking up money left on the street (when no owner is around)
-buying stuff from evil mercants
-healing your self in a tempel that worships a evil god
-refussing to help evil people although their problems are just as genuine as a good ones. (Someone robed an evil guy and he asks for help)
thats the stuff i meant
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beer-for-love
-picking up money left on the street (when no owner is around)
-buying stuff from evil mercants
-healing your self in a tempel that worships a evil god
-refussing to help evil people although their problems are just as genuine as a good ones. (Someone robed an evil guy and he asks for help)
thats the stuff i meant
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beer-for-love
beer-for-love
Your dm could give you a break in those cases or give you a lot of shit (as my DM does).
........
I did say that doing evil things will make you a fallen paladin but not instanly (you have to pass a reputation/ alignment barier)
........
The thing i hate most is when i suffer a an alignment shock (some times my dm is really iritating).
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beer-for-love
........
I did say that doing evil things will make you a fallen paladin but not instanly (you have to pass a reputation/ alignment barier)
........
The thing i hate most is when i suffer a an alignment shock (some times my dm is really iritating).
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beer-for-love
beer-for-love
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bullions27
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With the above cases then it will have to depend on how your GM is running the game and how he pictures the code of chivalry for your paladins. A GM I ran with once was extremely picky when I chose a Paladin class in one campaign. I took it as a challenge and it turned out I gave better life with the character being confronted with many situations, some mundane and some hazardous.
"What we have here is a failure to communicate." - Cool Hand Luke
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Chris Boney
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Still as far as I see this quest in Hell with the beast, the test of paladin is just too virtual. No true paladin would sacrifice him or a part of him for a test that is so, excuse the word, "clinical".
It's like asking a paladin what he would theoretically do if he would sacrifice an arm for an innocent if he had to, and he cuts it of and hands his arm over to you.
(->> insane, ain't it ??)
Chris
It's like asking a paladin what he would theoretically do if he would sacrifice an arm for an innocent if he had to, and he cuts it of and hands his arm over to you.
(->> insane, ain't it ??)
Chris
Where there's a will, there is a way.
And if there is no way, then we're going to hack and shoot it clear!
And if there is no way, then we're going to hack and shoot it clear!
A Paladin does not care a single bit about what OTHERS think of him. He does things because he must do them, period, not because others might think he's such a good guy. All he cares about is doing things the RIGHT way so other people thrive - that's where he gains his satisfaction for what he does. That they respect him (and possibly adore him) is not at all the motivation that makes him do all those things.
Such selfless actions will be made whenever the Paladin feels it is requested of him. By doing so, he remains true to himself, and the code of honor he set for himself (and his deity). If he fails in that, even if others would think he's only human and did what he could, he still falls in his own eyes.
The test with the Beast in Hell does not go about what OTHERS think of the Paladin, but how true the Paladin is to HIMSELF. If you can't see that pivotal aspect of the Paladin, I'm afraid you'll never understand ... I'd suggest you give up trying to understand it if you can't understand it.
Such selfless actions will be made whenever the Paladin feels it is requested of him. By doing so, he remains true to himself, and the code of honor he set for himself (and his deity). If he fails in that, even if others would think he's only human and did what he could, he still falls in his own eyes.
The test with the Beast in Hell does not go about what OTHERS think of the Paladin, but how true the Paladin is to HIMSELF. If you can't see that pivotal aspect of the Paladin, I'm afraid you'll never understand ... I'd suggest you give up trying to understand it if you can't understand it.
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Chris Boney
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Yikes No !!
You didn't get the point in my last post. It was about a Paladin for example asked at the PSSG (Paladin School O'Selfless Goodmen) how to act in such a case. And instead of answering something like "I would cut off my arm to rescue an innocent", he chooses to really cut it off and give it to the teacher (with his other remaining hand)
That's insane!
I beg to differ from everybody elses opinion: That quest setup in hell is just to similar to an exam whatever! You see, the beast "summons" a farmer (for the test). Furthermore the beast has no "background story" (like ie. some beasts are holding a farmer captive and are threatening to kill him if nobody can accomplish a certain thing for them - and a Paladin does it but has to sacrifice a bodypart in order to succed)
And last not least, most important part:
Do you really let yourselves fool by this beast who is even ASKING the paladin for his path for which he decides???
Aren't the paladins the good guys who sacrifice their bodyparts to errmm "rescue" the innocent, but you turn it all around! You say the Paladin would sacrifice his stats just to ANSWER the beasts question!!
Man, you guys almost convinced me.. but I got all books of literature to proove that I'm right!
Go read 100 books everybody and don't come back BEFORE YOU HAVE READ ALL and answer me that, 'How often sacrificed a hero himself or part himself, to rescue an innocent?'
And afterwards also answer me here 'How often sacrificed a hero himself or part of himself to proove it, that he would give a sacrifice in a time of need?'
Yeah Baby, 100 to 0 I WIN!!!
Chris
[This message has been edited by Chris Boney (edited 12-01-2000).]
You didn't get the point in my last post. It was about a Paladin for example asked at the PSSG (Paladin School O'Selfless Goodmen) how to act in such a case. And instead of answering something like "I would cut off my arm to rescue an innocent", he chooses to really cut it off and give it to the teacher (with his other remaining hand)
That's insane!
I beg to differ from everybody elses opinion: That quest setup in hell is just to similar to an exam whatever! You see, the beast "summons" a farmer (for the test). Furthermore the beast has no "background story" (like ie. some beasts are holding a farmer captive and are threatening to kill him if nobody can accomplish a certain thing for them - and a Paladin does it but has to sacrifice a bodypart in order to succed)
And last not least, most important part:
Do you really let yourselves fool by this beast who is even ASKING the paladin for his path for which he decides???
Aren't the paladins the good guys who sacrifice their bodyparts to errmm "rescue" the innocent, but you turn it all around! You say the Paladin would sacrifice his stats just to ANSWER the beasts question!!
Man, you guys almost convinced me.. but I got all books of literature to proove that I'm right!
Go read 100 books everybody and don't come back BEFORE YOU HAVE READ ALL and answer me that, 'How often sacrificed a hero himself or part himself, to rescue an innocent?'
And afterwards also answer me here 'How often sacrificed a hero himself or part of himself to proove it, that he would give a sacrifice in a time of need?'
Yeah Baby, 100 to 0 I WIN!!!
Chris
[This message has been edited by Chris Boney (edited 12-01-2000).]
Where there's a will, there is a way.
And if there is no way, then we're going to hack and shoot it clear!
And if there is no way, then we're going to hack and shoot it clear!
but they werent paladins..look at the saints in the christian history..that would go through whatever their faith demanded off them because they were driven..never shirking from it..ofered free passage fro death if they would renounce their faith..but they wouldnt..their faith and the example they would set was more important...of think of other driven persons that come out to help the wounded in epidemic areas..of florence nigthingale...all such driven persons..that strive for their noble cause deserve the tittle of paladin..because they MUST do what is rigth to them...i agree you still dont understand what theyre about