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fable's Q&A on classical music

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Post by fable »

Originally posted by C Elegans
I love Francesca da Rimini, it was however composed by Tchaikovsky ;)


And also by Rachmaninoff, Maurice, Zandonai, and others. Or did you think a popular romantic story like that, made still more popular by Dante, would result in only one musical version? ;)

My favorite is Rachmaninoff's opera. It's too bad he's dead, or I could have told him he didn't write it. :D
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Post by C Elegans »

Originally posted by fable
And also by Rachmaninoff, Maurice, Zandonai, and others. Or did you think a popular romantic story like that, made still more popular by Dante, would result in only one musical version? ;)

My favorite is Rachmaninoff's opera. It's too bad he's dead, or I could have told him he didn't write it. :D


I know Zandonai wrote one, and I'm not surprised there are many of these popular story, but I never knew Rachmaninov wrote one, and I thought I had a pretty good overview of Rachmaninov's works :o So what does it sound like?
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by C Elegans
I know Zandonai wrote one, and I'm not surprised there are many of these popular story, but I never knew Rachmaninov wrote one, and I thought I had a pretty good overview of Rachmaninov's works :o So what does it sound like?


It's quite good, particularly in the lengthy, last act love duet, and in Francesca's beautiful aria. They're very much what you'd expect of Rachmaninoff under full Romantic sail: hauntingly lyrical, with an undertoe of melancholy. It's unrepresented currently on CD, though a poor version circulated for quite a while. A somewhat better one (still only fair) existed on LP back in the 1970s. Francesca's aria has received a number of fine recordings intermittently. (My favorite to date features Elvira Uzunian.) A shame the work isn't performed more in the West. Today's lyric tenors could handle the male lead without problems, and a good, healthy young soprano with a free top should be able to draw an ovation or two.
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Post by fable »

Incidentally, the Kremerata Baltica have out a fine recording of Enescu's wonderful Octet, on Nonesuch. It's unfortunately the full string orchestra arrangement rather than the original, but still, it's a lot better than any other currently available. :)
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Post by KidD01 »

I'm running into lots of mood swings lately and in slump mode. hence I'm back to listen to classic music. Any good recommendation ?
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Post by fable »

@Kid, could you be a bit more specific? What kinds of classical things do you enjoy? What sort of mood are you looking to enhance?

EDIT: Just re-read your post. You mean that you're depressed, de-energized, and looking for classical music to help pull you out of it? Have I got that correct?
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Post by KidD01 »

in short, everything went out of rythm. I think i need something a bit fast paced - anything on Mozart or Vivaldi ?
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Post by fable »

You're pretty much guaranteed a pair of relatively quick movements sandwiching a slow one in Vivaldi's 700+ surviving concertos. :D But if you want something upbeat, consider doing what a friend of mine did: he liked upbeat, fast-paced classical driving music, so he excerpted the first and last movements of a bunch of Haydn symphonies and put them all on a cassette tape.

In Mozart, I'd suggest the overtures to Le Nozze di Figaro (Marriage of Figaro) and Cosi Fan Tutte, a pair of his operas. The finales of many of his piano concertos and symphonies would also suit your requirements.

If you enjoy the sound of the harpsichord, check out the harpsichord sonatas of Domenico Scarlatti. (They're also frequently recorded on the piano.) Handel wrote some upbeat harpsichord suites, too. And speaking of Handel, you may want to look for his Water Music and Royal Fireworks Music.
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Post by fable »

Reviving this, since I'm still getting queries via PMs. Put your questions up, here. :)
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Post by fable »

A poster of some renown with a one-track mind has asked a question, but refuses to put it out in the open. So to speak. The question is: "What about pornography in classical music?" Well, yes: what about it?

We do know that some of the music to Attic Greek comedies accompanied suitably scatalogical and pornographic material, because the lyrics (by people like Aristophanes) have survived. It would be nice to say this was a theme that continued up to the present time, given humanity's nature. But we can't do that, because many cultures had different, and stricter, rules than our own concerning what sort of written content could be set to music or placed on stage.

We first begin seeing sexual content filtering back into Western European classical music in the 14th century, thanks to several Florentine carnival songs that have survived. These were not the equivalent of our modern carnivals, but more like the Mardi Gras: nominally religious festivals that temporarily exploded the fabric of society. Imagine, if you will, an intricate, sweetly sung four-part madrigal about the artichoke, which goes, in part, as follows:

First, ladies, you must hoe all around,
take the leaves in hand and then bind it,
cover it, and sow it absolutely straight:
there are some who plant it lying face down.
The artichoke should be in size
a span or a little more, for nature
cannot digest anything so big and hard,
even though we always like the big mouthfuls...

Alas, although we have the music and the text, there's nothing that reproduces the gestures that we're certain accompanied this dulcet piece.

The late Renaissance English were also fond of this kind of thing, and there are many popular songs and classical transcriptions that survive of similar material. In fact, there's a fair amount of raunchy, euphemistic material along these lines, and some that actually gets a lot more hardcore over the next couple of centuries, before Protestantism set in and outlawed the stuff. Huge bonfires of plays, books, and musical compositions were burnt in cities throughout Central and Western Europe by militant Protestants who felt it was an afront to Christianity.

You have to jump forward to Mozart, then, to encounter our next stop in classical smut. The guy was nothing like the figure portrayed in Amadeus, but he did enjoy dirty jokes. One of his amusements was to create canons on the first tone--several different melodies in the same key, which overlapped naturally and without causing disonance. He would set each melody to an innocent lyric which, combined with the others, would at some point in the number, give rise to a line that was completely lewd. Mozart used to meet with several friends, all of whom were among the shining lights in classical performance in Vienna, high a meal, drink heartily, and then try these out. Fortunately, they have survived, to the embarassment of many generations of music appreciation teachers, everywhere.

The late 19th and all of the 20th century witnessed a level of tolerance for the open disclosure of sexually related materials in Western urban culture that hasn't been seen since the Renaissance. There have been attempts to reimpose controls--the 1950s in the United States, British Prime Minister John Major's "campaign for decency," de Gaulle's attempt to reinstitute censorship on a national level in France. Thus far, these have been passing moments, and classical composers, like everybody else, have taken advantage of this greater openness. Texts set to classical music have become increasingly frank, even obscene by many standards. When text wasn't used, it was still possible to get across a lot in music--such as Paul Dukas' sensual ballet, La Peri. (Dukas also possessed one of the largest collections of French porn in existence. It's now in the National Library in Paris. Think about this fact the next time you listen to The Sorcerer's Apprentice.)

If you want more information, you'll just have to read up on the stuff. Try Grove's Dictionary of Music and Musicians, for a start. The volumes are big enough to fit around a Playboy or Playgirl issue, too. ;)
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Post by fable »

Yes, it's back, again. :) I received another question, this time in passing along with some other stuff, in PMs. I figured I'd answer it here, thus giving everyone an equal shot at falling asleep from my scholarship. The question? "Who were the troubadours, and why did they vanish?"

The troubadours were actually one manifestation of culture shock that hit Europe during and after the wave of costly Crusades, around 1200 ACE, launched to retake Jerusalem and punish the Ottoman Empire. At the time, the Ottomans (modern Turkey) were part of one of the most sophisticated civilizations in the world, worthy to stand alongside China and the Incas. The Europeans? Nice people to visit, but you'd hardly want to live there, and you'd probably want to take a bath after visiting. The Ottomans were far superior in all the arts, sciences (theoretical and practical), economics, mathematics, history and statecraft. In most areas Europeans gained nothing from the contact, due in large part to prejudice, but the more artistically inclined nobles of various European courts--trained in aesthetics with a strong sensitivity to form--came away extremely impressed.

The results were felt immediately at the various courts of Europe, were these nobles, fresh from the Holy Lands, playing the new instruments they'd acquired there, using the musical modes they'd learned and (for the first time in a long time in Europe) sang personal, secular poetry. It proved enormously popular, despite the great disapproval of various Church prelates who had tried to stamp out all written or oral literature that wasn't religiously based.

There were three main geographical groups of these nobles, along with various small ones. The large ones included the troubadours, from what is now Southern France and western Italy (at the time, Provence), the trouveres, from Northern France and England, and the minnesangers, from the German states. It's difficult to ascertain why the troubadours caught the public imagination of the last couple of centuries, since they were identical to just about all respects to the other groups, save for language (Provencal). By the time of the second generation, all three groups had ceased to be nobles only, with some well-placed burghers mingling among them. Best known for singing of courtly love, they also dealt with the pains of joys of daily life. They certainly didn't live in the clouds; some of them are known to have also told many of the stories in the collections of truly filthy tales that have survived in French manuscripts from that period. (And yes, a couple of these actually present earlier versions of the famed traveling salesmen jokes most of us have heard over the years.) Regardless, the age of these poet/singers lasted about 150 years, until roughly 1350 ACE when the increasing persecution of the Church ended their preoccuption with secular entertainments. The secular arts continued to flourish, but the lead was relinquished to commonfolk until the Italian Renaissance states once again took the lead.

Quite a bit of the music of the trouveres survive, but very little of the troubadours. Provencal was invaded at the request of the Church, during the Albigensian Crusade--the Albigensians being an extremely strict Christian sect that had refused all approaches by the RCC, even going so far as to killing Rome's representatives. The resultant wholesale, chaotic slaughter in Provencal destroyed most records of the period, including all but four small collections of troubadour works. What's more, at least one of these collections through comparison with the others shows that its anonymous monkish transcriber did not like complexity, and deliberated, drastically simplified the music he copied; while another plainly knew next to nothing about music, and made frequent errors which lend an air of disbelief to quite a few of the pieces he "wrote." In all, there are roughly 1000 pieces of music and poetry from the trouveres that survive, and roughly 100 from the troubadours.

Complicating matters is the fact that the transcriptions were made using a notational system that leaves a lot to be desired. Instead of employing staves and notes--our modern method, developed several hundred years later--the troubadours and their contemporaries used noumenes. These accurately depicted pitch, but not length of note or phrasing. Nor did the transcribed pieces contain more than a single melodic line. There is still a controversy raging over whether these noble bards were accompanied by instruments, other singers, or merely sang solo.

There you have it. Any other questions of classical music? Direct 'em here. :)
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Post by JazzyAnna »

Who was the composer who thought that if he composed more symphonies than Beethoven that he would be killed? Than, he began one more, and died. Something like that happened, I'm not sure. Also, have you listened to anything by Dmitri Shostakovich? At a concert band camp I went to, we (tried) to play something by him (I forget what). It was insane. We ended up not playing it for the concert since it was so difficult and we only had a week to learn it. But I really liked that song and I was wondering if you could suggest any CDs with songs by him on it. Thanks.
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Post by fable »

Who was the composer who thought that if he composed more symphonies than Beethoven that he would be killed? Than, he began one more, and died.

Urban legend. Never happened. :) It started in part because of the reverence some later 19th century composers had for Beethoven, and the rather silly way they had of claiming hubris (egotism) whenever one of the fraternity dared to write many symphonies: "Oh, you think you've got more to say than Beethoven, hmm?"

But Shostakovich wrote 15 symphonies, Miaskovsky wrote 25, and Havergal Brian wrote 32. All of 'em lived into old age--Brian, in fact, died at the age of 97.

Bruckner, by the way, did die while writing a ninth symphony, but it was subsequently discovered that he'd written two which were never published--so in fact, it was his eleventh that he was writing at the time of his death. And his death has nothing to do with Beethoven, and everything to do with his advanced age.

Also, have you listened to anything by Dmitri Shostakovich? At a concert band camp I went to, we (tried) to play something by him (I forget what). It was insane. We ended up not playing it for the concert since it was so difficult and we only had a week to learn it. But I really liked that song and I was wondering if you could suggest any CDs with songs by him on it. Thanks.
-anna


Yes, I'm pretty familiar with Shostakovich's works. He's probably my favorite 20th century composer. Unlike some music of that period which sounds either cold or written as though in code, Shostakovich always seems to make an emotionally committed statement. We now know, thanks to plenty of post-Soviet interviews with people who knew him, that his music (especially the satirical stuff) was frequently subversive, his blaring trumpets and snarling, military snare drum rolls were meant to stand for the Soviet aparachiks and Stalin, whom he hated. His was a tragic life: a man who was raised in the Soviet, truly believed in the ideals of Communism, and loathed the corruption of the people who abused the system and hurt others in the process. If you want to learn more, one very good, non-partisan book is Elizabeth Wilson's Shostakovich A Life Remembered.

But I'm getting off the subject. For a good idea of Shostakovich at his most engaging, with plenty of off-the-wall humor, check out his first and ninth symphonies. The best current version I know of features Bernard Haitink and the London Philharmonic (Decca 2DM 425066). The fifth symphony is perhaps his most easily accessible among the "serious" symphonies, but his seventh, eighth, and tenth have been praised more highly in recent years. His thirteenth and fourteenth symphonies unusually feature a vocal soloist, and most movements are settings of poetry--works of protest and great sorrow at the inhumanity of humankind. The Brezhnev regime tried to stifle them, without success.

You might also want to check out his two piano concertos (wonderfully funny works, especially the first), and his string quartets, which range from charming to horrifically despairing. Good luck, and hope you enjoy the results. :)
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Post by JazzyAnna »

Thanks for the info. I read that you were into jazz too. Who are some of your favorite jazz musicians? Just wondering.
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Post by fable »

[QUOTE=JazzyAnna]Thanks for the info. I read that you were into jazz too. Who are some of your favorite jazz musicians? Just wondering.
-anna[/QUOTE]

Although it's off-subject, here's a brief list:

Charlie Parker
Gil Evans
Bud Powell
Stan Getz
Tad Dameron
Paul Desmond (yes, it's true!)
Woody Herman
Claude Thornhill
Duke Ellington
Billie Holiday
Bill Evans
Gerry Mulligan
Roy Eldridge...

and many, many more. These are only those that come to mind, right now.
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Post by Chanak »

@fable: Interesting that you refer to works as being satirical, humorous, etc...for I have detected this nuance in some of the works I have listened to in the past. Being rather unschooled in the subject at hand - in particular, ignorant of the all-important history behind symphonies and their composers - I have simply relied upon my sense of musical equilibrium to notice this. I find some of Beethoven's work to be hilarious, as well as Tchaichovsky's, to cite two examples. Some of their most grandiose movements seem to be satirical in essence, though they could be interpreted in other ways as well. That is one of the great beauties of music, to me...it's layers can be endless, simple yet complex in a single note.
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Post by fable »

That's a good thought, @Chanak. Classical music isn't one "thing," but dozens of things spread across nearly a thousand years and more than a dozen cultures and sub-cultures. As such, it's going to represent a great variety of attitudes and levels of complexity. The kind of "I'm serious, listen to me" works that people identify with classical music (thanks in part to plenty of bad Teutonic philoso-musicology from the 19th and early 20th centuries) represents only a fraction of its true content.

Humor in classical music? Definitely.

Francis Poulenc is a perfect example. Many of his works cheerfully mix melodies written in many styles from many periods plus popular and folk music, in a way that clearly shows he doesn't give a damn and is simply enjoying himself. Click on the 10th selection on this page, for example, to hear the first bit of the final movement from his Harpsichord Concerto. It's as far from serious as you can get. One exasperated "serious" critic remarked that "Poulenc is the most loquacious of composers. When he hasn't got anything to say, he says it," and in a way, that's true. But who cares? :)

Another is Jean Francaix. At a time in the mid 20th century when composers were for the most part writing in a style that was as far-removed from public appreciation as possible (and didn't care, as long as they were praised by their colleagues and moved ahead in academia), Francaix was writing light-hearted, instantly accessible music.

A third is Albert Roussel. Try the 3rd, 7th, 19th and 20th cuts here. It's not the best performance out there, but it gives a great flavor for what Roussel could achieve in his faster, more jocular symphonic movements.

All three of these composers certainly had their serious sides. Poulenc wrote a harrowing opera and several extremely serious religious settings. Francaix adapted his manner agilely to large-scale, more serious works, and Roussel could easily write in any mood he chose. But all three demonstrate that you don't need to frown all the time to write classical music.

Others? Shostakovich, as I mentioned, above. Lord Berners--whose ballet, The Triumph of Neptune, includes a (deliberately) off-key rendition of the opening line from that old ballad, "The Last Rose of Summer." Leonard Bernstein, whose operetta Candide is filled with sly takeoffs on other composers. Peter Schickele, who, under the pseudonym PDQ Bach, has released some wonderfully silly satires on baroque period classical music. (His best album by far was his first. You can't hear the music on the Web, but you can hear some of his introductory patter here.

Those will do for a start.
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Post by Lost One »

Hi Fable. I've played the piano for some years and as such, I've had to learn many classical pieces. First of all though, I'm wondering by your great knowledge and interest in music, if you play any instrument. I know I have many questions about certain classical score sheets and how to go about playing them.

Is there any good contemporary classical music out there today?


Could you make a list of what you think are the 10 most popular classical pieces out there? You know, the ones even people who don't listen to classical music have heard of before. Just so I can buy a cd with popular classical music that others who come to my house can relate to.

I'm also looking for popular classic piano pieces that I can play solo on the keyboard. Any suggestions? I learned Turkish March on the keyboard but it's a simplified version and I'm out of ideas for others. Most of the classical pieces I've learned thus far are not well known, which makes it less interesting when I play it to guests.

Thanks.
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Post by fable »

[QUOTE=Lost One]Hi Fable. I've played the piano for some years and as such, I've had to learn many classical pieces. First of all though, I'm wondering by your great knowledge and interest in music, if you play any instrument. I know I have many questions about certain classical score sheets and how to go about playing them.[/quote]

I used to play both classical piano (very badly, and thirty five years ago), and folk accordion (mediocre, and up to fifteen years ago). Afraid I can't help you regarding sheet music: my apologies.

Is there any good contemporary classical music out there today?

Short story: yes.

Long story: when Arnold Schoenberg developed his 12-tone-system in the early part of the 20th century (and he was only one of several working in that direction), he probably never realized it would become a system of shackles rather than music-making. Academia everywhere used it as a litmus test to decide whether students should receive good grades, whether teachers should get tenure and compositions be published. Actual performance to the public was of no interest, because this kind of music was (with a few notable and excellent exceptions) music-by-the-rules, concept music, without any concern for audiences.

There were always exceptions, like Shostakovich, Milhaud, Stravinsky (who used the 12-tone-system a few times), etc. But by and large, classical music-making kept getting further and further away from audiences, until it reached the point that John Cage could write a composition entitled "4:33" in which there was random noise on either side of 4:33 worth of silence.

In the 1980s, this situation changed radically when a specific composer, Rochberg, decided he needed to say things in classical music that couldn't be communicated emotionally through the 12-tone-system. He wrote entire movements and then works in the style of other composers he loved--Beethoven, Mahler--and audiences woke up. Suddenly, there was an enormous demand for classical music of this kind. Composers who had sniffed at tonal music for years "discovered" the joys of writing accessible music...for a fee, of course. :rolleyes: But there were many who had never lost touch with tonal music, and they simply, finally, came to the fore. Finally, once again, Western classical music was connected to its audiences.

Nowadays, there's plenty of good classical music. I'm not recommending specific composers, because I don't know what sort of things please you. The stylistic range of these works is great, however. It helps to have a clear idea what you're searching for.

Could you make a list of what you think are the 10 most popular classical pieces out there? You know, the ones even people who don't listen to classical music have heard of before. Just so I can buy a cd with popular classical music that others who come to my house can relate to.

It might be easier to suggest a recording: "Learning by Example, vol 1," with Mordecai Shehori, pianist (Cembal d'amour CD 108). It contains Beethoven's Fur Elise, and a host of other popular short works by Chopin, Schumann, etc. It's a lot better than the usual faceless "greatest hits" album that has one movement from column A, one from column B, and all in dreadful performances and sound.

I'm also looking for popular classic piano pieces that I can play solo on the keyboard. Any suggestions? I learned Turkish March on the keyboard but it's a simplified version and I'm out of ideas for others. Most of the classical pieces I've learned thus far are not well known, which makes it less interesting when I play it to guests.

Would that be the Turkish March from Beethoven's Ruins of Athens? Because if so, you may want to check out Mozart's Piano Sonata in A, K.331. That's the one with the famous Turkish Rondo as its finale. I used to play it, and occasionally managed to get through without feeling that the spirit of the composer would have knifed me if possible. You might also try some of the sonatas of Domenico Scarlatti--though little known by non-classical enthusiasts, they are wonderfully catchy and tuneful. Consider finding "The Hen" by Rameau, another well known work, and Traumerei, by Robert Schumann.

Remember, the magic of the music lies partially in the hands of the pianist. You can make an unknown work rivetting to all but idiots (who shouldn't be invited to your house, anyway ;) ) by your use of dynamics, tone, pacing and phrasing. Best of luck. :)
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Post by Chanak »

[QUOTE=fable]...It's a lot better than the usual faceless "greatest hits" album that has one movement from column A, one from column B, and all in dreadful performances and sound.[/QUOTE]

Argh. Isn't this the truth. :rolleyes: Customarily, I listen to NPR for great performances and information regarding the composer, the background of the piece, etc. One can find popular music CDs with an inner jacket that reads like a book...complete with lyrics, bizarre artwork, and so forth. I have yet to find a CD dedicated to a great performance with such an inner jacket, that helps to explain the backdrop of the time, the composer's life and situation (as in, was it composed at the behest of a patron? For a particular church? Was the composer down and out, or living in the lap of luxury and the darling of the day?), and other tidbits which greatly expand the experience. As much as I intuitively appreciate fine music, classical music demands more than your ear.

I think of my fiance, who is a vocalist with classical training. In order to earn extra credit for an elective course in high school, she (with the help of her instructor, who accompanied her on the piano) performed several different types of music, from Gregorian Chant to more contemporary music, in six different languages. Included in her performance was background information on each piece...and the programme contained translations of her non-English performances. It was a tremendous effort which earned her the highest marks...and it is easy to see why. I believe the background information was crucial, and without it it would have been just great singing.
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