Sorcerer/Red Dragon Disciple/Pale Master - recommended abilities?

[AlexKarpman]

Hey

I was thinking of creating a Sorc/RDD/PM with 20/10/10th levels. I've seen one post about it, but it didn't help me much. So my question is: Is it a realy dumb combo, and I'm incredibly stupid for considering it, or not?

I don't want the Sorc/RDD/Paladin. It's true that it'll boost up my Saving Throws because he adds the charisma modifier to them, but I feel that the PM's special abilities are superioir to the Paladin's. The PM gives me the undead stuff, some extra HP, extra spells per day for the Sorc, and the top - Immunity to Critical Hits which renders all of the "Devestating Overwhelming Super Duper Extra Critical" epic feats

So, the question is: What kind of ability scores to I need for such a combo?

What does charisma do for a sorc?
I have the NWN:Gold Manual that sucks, with lots of wrong page references etc., and the table there shows that spells known and spells per day are constant and don't depend on chrisma(like wizard and intelligence)?
Does charisma or intelligence affect the Sorc's DC for spells?

Do I need high strength or wisdom, or I could just stay with a basic 10, and let the rdd buff 'em up?

And now we're gettin to the Dexterity/Intelligence issue.
I've started SoU with 14-Dexterity and 12-Intelligence. Since I haven't progressed much yet(6th level, almost finished Chapter 1) - I thought that I could start over with Intelligence 14 and Dexterity 12, In order to get more Skill Points?

So basically my question is: Is this a good multiclass combo, and what ability scores do I need for it?


Oops, forgot this one:
Do my Sorc levels affects the DC for my spells? or just the charisma? Would making my Sorc level only 20 of the possible 40 makes his ineffective?

[Noober]

If this is for pvp, no chance at all.
If this is for single-player, you'll only reach about level 29 max.

Spell DC is calculated: 10 + Spell Level + stat (CHA for sorc) mod

Pally/Sorc/Monk > Sorc/RDD/Pale because saves are EXTEMELY important, especially with Monk evasion. Plus Pally also has Divine Shield etc. as well as Armour Proficiency if you go Auto-Still 3. Higher AB as well. You don't need to take 10 pally levels. You SR penetration will be waaaay better. etc. etc.

Uber high CHA will give you more spells per day.

If you really want to go Sorc/RDD/Pale then your stats will depend on your occupation, would you rather be a poor spellcaster, or poor fighter?

[AlexKarpman]

I still don't get what wrong with that combo

*How important saves REALY are?
*How does save vs. spells work? If you saved - means you take no damange from that spell?

Lets say I do choose the Sorc/Monk/Paladin combo: 1 monk level gives me the Evasion feat, but in order to take all of the cool bonus feats I need to take 6 monk levels, and Improoved Evasion is at 9th...Paladdin level 1 gives me the Saving Throws thing, but the 2nd gives me the fear immunity(which is VERY nice).
So, I take 2 Paladin levels, And how many Monk levels do I need?

Correct me if I'm wrong: After Sorc-20th-level, he gains no more Spells Known, or Spells per Day(besides what adding charisma give him etc.) - So taking Sorc beyond 20th is useless, right?

About the Still spell.......actually I was thinking about Auto Quicken Spell 3, which, if I got it right, causes the spell to be cast immediately, instaed of wasting time on waving his hands in the air and talking all of this mumbo-jumbo crap...

BTW, what's "SR penetration"?

And to the question I began with:
What's so bad about Sorc/RDD/PM that would make him either a poor fighter, or a poor magician?

[Volk]

Sorc spells are all charisma based, and balacing the three classes will be next to impossibile in single. The reason he will be a poor fighter is because you have no high AB classes and he will be a poor magician because he only has a limited slection of spells because he is a sorcerer, which have to be put towards offense as opposed to using them the buff yourself.

So the dilema remains do you buff yourself or do offensive damage, and that seems to be the bigest problem with this class. Pally/sorc/monk on the other hand gets killer saves first of all good fort, along with divine grace from pally, amazing saves, evasion and cleave from monk and all the spell casting of a sorcerer, you dont have to worry about prestige classes and so on.

20Sorc/* monk ( i would say 9 minimum for the imp evasion )/*Paladin (either take 1 level and take a prestige class to 10 or take 10 levels of pally and 10 of monk, alternatively you can take 9 monk and 11 pally if you have good wisdom and benefit from his spells as well )

Theoreticaly of course, sorc/rdd/pale could and should still work for the single player.

Evasion allows you to compleatly aviod all damage caused by sources which allow a reflexsave for half on a successful saving throw, improved evasion works the same way except you only take half damage even if you fail the save and negate the damage on a successful save. Theres a lot of spells that allow reflex for half damage, therefore reflex saves are incredibly useful, fortitude and will saves protect you from insta kill spells and spells that confuse and stun, making them equaly important.

There is no such thing as an overkill when it comes to saves, the more the better. SR is spell resistance and penetration is your ability to bypass the targets resistance by rolling 1d20+modifiers, if you fail to bypass the resistance the spell has no effect on the target.

Auto quicken spell is good if you plan to use robes and clothing and have a dexterity of about 26 or more, otherwise its better to use auto still spell and a good armor, overall i would use auto quicken since its a good idea to have a high dexterity.

[Noober]

Well said, Volk!

The reason it might not be worth taking Auto-Quicken over Auto-Still is because quicken doesn't stack with Haste, which means that the only advantage would be having uncounterable spells.

[AlexKarpman]

Sorc/Monk/Paladin is a fighter combo?

If I got you right, this combo will be a fighter character(with Unarmed Attack from monk, and bonuses from Sorc & Paladin). right?
I wanted to create a magician. Already played the OC with a Fighter/Barbarian, and I want something different

If I got you wrong, then what do I care about Cleave? It's useful only for fighting, not from spellcasting.(And oh, how useful Great Cleave was for my Barbrian )

[QUOTE=Volk]
20Sorc/* monk ( i would say 9 minimum for the imp evasion )/*Paladin (either take 1 level and take a prestige class to 10 or take 10 levels of pally and 10 of monk, alternatively you can take 9 monk and 11 pally if you have good wisdom and benefit from his spells as well )
[/QUOTE]
So taking more than 20-Sorc has no effect on my spells?
Should I take that much Paladin levels? I don't think I'm going to have a huge wisdom modifer, so Seems that 2/3 Paladin levels would be enough.

[QUOTE=Volk]
Auto quicken spell is good if you plan to use robes and clothing and have a dexterity of about 26 or more, otherwise its better to use auto still spell and a good armor, overall i would use auto quicken since its a good idea to have a high dexterity.
[/QUOTE]
Why do I need hight Dexterity for Auto Quicken Spell?
The manual says, if I'm not mistaking, that waering armor would screw up my Monk abilities...

About the all of the ability modifers: We're talking about "innate" ability scores, or do we count bonuses from clothes/spells too?
I don't think I'm going to have 26 Dexterity...I'd prefer adding all of my points to the charisma(what brings me back to my first question: this is a fighter chracter or a magician?)

If this is a fighter-combo, my questuin becomes: What combo would you recommend for a non-fighting magician? Is that even possible in PvP?

Thanks a lot for all of your answers here

[Volk]

This is in now way a fighter character, hes simply an incredibly hard to kill caster character that can melle if he wants to, paladin is taken for the save bonuses, other feats and possibly some spells, i never said cleave had anything to do with the build i just said its nice to have it, because there will be things that are hard to kill with magic.

20 Sorc is all the arcane spell casting you will need, if and only if you plan your spells corectly. You dont need dexterity for auto quicken i never said you did, i said that auto quicken is better for characters who have robes on, which implies a good dexterity bonus at epic levels, those without good dexterity should stick to talking auto still and a heavy armor. Dexterity is all or none for a caster, either its at least 26 which is needed for a +8 AC bonus and that makes all but padded armors not worth using, or your dexterity is 10 and you use a heavy armor as soon as you get auto still at epic levels.


If you want a caster only combination you could try:

Wizzard/Palemaster
Wizzard/Sorcerer
Cleric/Sorcerer
Cleric/Druid

or any combination of two caster classes.

But if you plan to PVP and its not a team duel i wouldnt expect to live much because the classes above have horrible saving throws, might be a fun single player thing though.

[AlexKarpman]

I'm beginning to understand

So if I plan a Sorc/Monk/Paladin correctly I can kill almost anything with magic, and I'll have problems I could use weapons(with the proficiencies from the Paladin).

Now the question is: As a Sorc I get less spells then a Wiz for instance. Do I take offensive spells(Issac's Missile Storm, Wail of the Banshee and Fireball for instance), or need I focus on spells that raise my ability scores/saving throws/attack/etc. and shields?
Taking both would be kind of difficult I think.

I haven't played much of SoU yet(and haven't played HotU at all). what do these robes give me? Why do I need high Dex for them?
What's the connection between Auto Quicken Speel and waering robes?

To get Paladin spells I need lots of levels in the Paladin class so I think I won't try to get Paladin spells - means that I don't need very high wisdom(staying with basic 10). So I'm taking(and staying with) Wisdom10.
What about the other abilities? High Charisma and Dexterity. I think I'll take about 14/16 Int to get enough Skill Points. Now what about Stength? What score to you think will be right for me?

And again: Thanks A LOT for bearing with me that much

[Volk]

You take offensive magic, thats the whole point of the build, to be protected by other classes abilities, that in turn allows you to focus those 20 levels of sorcerer on offensive magic, you dont need shield, mage armor etc, because with high saves you can aviod magic and using a small ammount of protective magic mainly stoneskin/grater stoneskin ( level 4 and 6 respectively ) you can aviod physical damage, energy buffer (5th level ) allows you to aviod massive ammounts of elemental damage and spell mantle ( lesser at 5th normal at 7 and grater at 9th, i would use the normal spell mantle and sacrifice a level 7 slot ) allows you to absorb spells thrown by others, when all three spells are active, nothing and i meen nothing can touch you.

So as you see by sacrificing 3 simple spell slots you gain invulnerability to any forseable damage. Thats the reason a Sorc/RDD/Pale is innefective because he needs every single protection spell out there to stay alive against anything magic resistant, which then puts you at a dissadvantage with offensive magic and makes the build not worth it.

Now about Auto quicken, there is no connection to that and robes whatsoever, but, if you have a high dexterity you can use mage robes which give you bonuses therefore, you dont suffer any arcane failiure, this allows you to forgo taking auto still spell to cancel the chance of arcane failiure given by heavy armor which is needed if your sorc has a low dexterity score.

In short, high dexterity use auto quicken and mage robes, low dexterity use heavy armor and auto still spell, naturaly its a lot more proftiable to have a high dexterity and use robes, you can use robes without having a high dexterity but its a huge huge risk because armor class is also important.

Now the abilities at the begining dont matter as much as because you can use items to boost them later on, but your inteligence should not be higher then 10 at the start, the only skills you truely need are spellcraft and concentration, tumble is nice, so i persuade but your main skills are concentration and spellcraft, you can also get another skill in there i think, but you dont need more then 10 inteligence. My sugestion is start as a human sorcerer:

Strength: 12
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 12
Inteligence:10
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: 16

Wisdom isnt the gratest i know but it wont affect you much since you dont want to focus on the paladin spells, and the -1 will save is cleared right up by your class because sorcerers get good will saves. Second level take a level as a monk, then 3rd take a level as a paladin after that raise your sorcerer untill you feel your spells are strong enough and then raise monk and paladin in equal incriments, ex 1 paladin 1 monk 1 monk 1 paladin so on so forth, this is so that you dont suffer experiance penalties, since the sorcerer is your favortie class ( it should be your highest level ) if you keep the paladin and monk within one level of each other you will be fine.

That should explain a thing or two if your unsure about something ask.

[Noober]

[QUOTE=Volk]If you want a caster only combination you could try:

Wizzard/Palemaster
Wizzard/Sorcerer
Cleric/Sorcerer
Cleric/Druid

or any combination of two caster classes.

But if you plan to PVP and its not a team duel i wouldnt expect to live much because the classes above have horrible saving throws, might be a fun single player thing though.[/QUOTE]

Wiz/Pale is VERY bad for pvp. You summon will be a better caster!
Wiz/Sorc has been tried, and failed. Low DC, less feats, among others are to blame.
Cleric/Sorc: Never tried. But probably (almost difinately) won't due to low SR penetration and Spell DC. Far better of multiclassing Cleric wiht Monk and Pally.
Cleric/Druid: See Wiz/Sorc.

My Advice on the character:

You only take a single level of Monk at the end to max Tumble (adding 8 AC).
Sorc36/Pally1/Blackguard3 will give you even higher saves (if built properly) but has lower AC.

Go human (not exp penalties for pally).

Keep in mind alignment restrictions. MUST be Lawful Good.

For feats Auto-Still>Auto-Quicken.
Take metamagic empower and maximise.
Spell Focus take Necromancy since all the best evocation have no save.

Stats:
STR: 8 (just buff it if you need to carry something, or get bags of holding)
DEX: 12 (once you get full plate...)
CON: 10
INT: 12 (Concentration+Spellcraft+TUMBLE(when you get monk))
WIS: 10 (will save)
CHA: 18 (MUST for pvp)

You MUST take Monk last, to maximise Tumble (don't forget to save a point per level).
Go Sorc then Pally then Sorc all the way till you get to last level which is Monk.

[Noober]

[QUOTE=Volk]You take offensive magic, thats the whole point of the build, to be protected by other classes abilities, that in turn allows you to focus those 20 levels of sorcerer on offensive magic, you dont need shield, mage armor etc, because with high saves you can aviod magic and using a small ammount of protective magic mainly stoneskin/grater stoneskin ( level 4 and 6 respectively ) you can aviod physical damage, energy buffer (5th level ) allows you to aviod massive ammounts of elemental damage and spell mantle ( lesser at 5th normal at 7 and grater at 9th, i would use the normal spell mantle and sacrifice a level 7 slot ) allows you to absorb spells thrown by others, when all three spells are active, nothing and i meen nothing can touch you.

So as you see by sacrificing 3 simple spell slots you gain invulnerability to any forseable damage. Thats the reason a Sorc/RDD/Pale is innefective because he needs every single protection spell out there to stay alive against anything magic resistant, which then puts you at a dissadvantage with offensive magic and makes the build not worth it.
[/QUOTE]

Also if you take the offensive path, you MUST take metamagic for pvp purposes.

Yeah, nothing can DAMGAGE you, but would you look at how that Devastating Critical ignored you Damage Reduction and simply killed you on the spot . And see as that Dispel Magic suddenly made you quite 'touchable'.

Just as a note: TAKE EPIC WARDING (epic feat) ALREADY! Epic Warding > Premonition since you can't out damage it.

[AlexKarpman]

What's "metamagic"?

"metamagic" are the feats Wiz gains, no?

The manual states there is an epic SPELL called Epic Warding(DR 50/+20) - Is that what you mean?

[AlexKarpman]

Almost there

Dexterity and Robes:
High Dex means high AC bonus - means I don't need armor, the therefore can use robes instaed. Since I don't use armor, Still spell is irrelevant, and I should take Auto Quicken Spell. Right?

Dfensive Spells:
*Stoneskin / Greater Stoneskin (4 / 6)
*Energy Buffer ( 5 )
*Lesser / Normal / Greater Spell Mantle ( 5 / 7 / 9 )
All Else Offensive


Ability Scores:
[QUOTE=Volk]
Strength: 12
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 12
Inteligence:10
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: 16
[/QUOTE]
Int-10 means I only get 2 Skill Points per level...that's not much. 1 goes for spellcraft and 1 for concentration. Nothing left for Heal / Lore / Tumble...

Taking Monk and Paladin levels always to keep them close is a problem since, as I said, I plan on Sorc/Monk/Paladin 20/17/3th levels...What Do I do in such case? take the Sorc and the Monk to gethere till the 17th and then only Sorc?

From these initial point I take only Charisma and Dexterity, right?
Don't I need high Constitution so I won't get interrupted in the middle fo casting spells?

Checked something now. I have only 10 ability increases from level 1 to level 40. If I start with Dex 16 and go up to 26 - that means that I stay with charisma of 16?!
Perhpas you meant that I need Dex-26 INCLUDING bonuses from items etc.?

I Forgot couple of important questions:
*If my alignment changes to non-lawful-good AFTER I took the Paladin levels, or changes to non-lawful AFTER I take my Monk levels - Do I reatin their abilities or do I have to stay Lawful good for the whole game to get the abilities these classes provide me with?
*What does "Auto Quicken Speel" EXACTLY do? (I don't want to take it so that I would later find out that it's not what I thought it was...)

[Noober]

[QUOTE=AlexKarpman]"metamagic" are the feats Wiz gains, no?

The manual states there is an epic SPELL called Epic Warding(DR 50/+20) - Is that what you mean?[/QUOTE]

Metamagic is Empower Spell, Maximise Spell etc.

Yes that's what I mean. Epic Warding is an epic spell. However in order to get this spell you must have the requisite Spellcraft, then spend a feat to get it. The advantage over other spells it that it stops up to +20 attacks, and doesn't collapse after taking too much damage.

[QUOTE=AlexKarpman]Dexterity and Robes:
High Dex means high AC bonus - means I don't need armor, the therefore can use robes instaed. Since I don't use armor, Still spell is irrelevant, and I should take Auto Quicken Spell. Right? [/QUOTE]

DON'T TAKE AUTO-QUICKEN!!!
IT IS WASTE OF A THREE FEATS! SINCE GETTING HASTE HAS THE SAME EFFECT EXCLUDING UNCOUNTERSPELLABLE WHICH DOESN'T MATTER!

Defensive Spells:
*Stoneskin / Greater Stoneskin (4 / 6) Drop stoneskin after you get Greater. You can also take Premonition if you really want to. This entire set of spells are made redundant for short term purposes by Epic Warding.
*Energy Buffer ( 5 ) Very good spell
*Lesser / Normal / Greater Spell Mantle ( 5 / 7 / 9 ) Don't take Greater Spell Mantle as an empowered Spell Mantle is in all repects superior. See also Stoneskin/Greater Stoneskin
All Else Offensive Be sure to get Firebrand and Isaac's

[QUOTE=AlexKarpman]Int-10 means I only get 2 Skill Points per level...that's not much. 1 goes for spellcraft and 1 for concentration. Nothing left for Heal / Lore / Tumble...[/QUOTE]

Don't bother with heal, and lore. Tumble on the other hand is almost the entire reason you take a level of Monk!

[QUOTE=AlexKarpman]Taking Monk and Paladin levels always to keep them close is a problem since, as I said, I plan on Sorc/Monk/Paladin 20/17/3th levels...What Do I do in such case? take the Sorc and the Monk to gethere till the 17th and then only Sorc?[/QUOTE]

I thought you were going Sorc 38/Pally 1/Monk 1 to make the best spell caster in the game. Also Sorc 20/Pally 19/Monk 1 would be FAR better.

[QUOTE=AlexKarpman] From these initial point I take only Charisma and Dexterity, right?
Don't I need high Constitution so I won't get interrupted in the middle fo casting spells? [/QUOTE]

Having a little extra CON won't make much of a difference. You take CON purely for HP.

[QUOTE=AlexKarpman]Checked something now. I have only 10 ability increases from level 1 to level 40. If I start with Dex 16 and go up to 26 - that means that I stay with charisma of 16?!
Perhpas you meant that I need Dex-26 INCLUDING bonuses from items etc.?[/QUOTE]

That means that you DON'T PUMP DEX. For the best sorc go pure CHA. CHA also makes you Pally stronger. If you want to, bump up STR to 13 so that you can take Power Attack which will let you take Divine Shield etc.

[QUOTE=AlexKarpman]I Forgot couple of important questions:
*If my alignment changes to non-lawful-good AFTER I took the Paladin levels, or changes to non-lawful AFTER I take my Monk levels - Do I reatin their abilities or do I have to stay Lawful good for the whole game to get the abilities these classes provide me with?
*What does "Auto Quicken Speel" EXACTLY do? (I don't want to take it so that I would later find out that it's not what I thought it was...)[/QUOTE]

You lose Pally abilities, but keep Monk abilities.

Auto-Quicken turns all your spells into Quickened Spells meaning that you can cast two spells per round and they can't be countered (a VERY rare occurance). However, Haste will also allow you to cast two spells per round, and there effects don't stack.

[AlexKarpman]

Okay...Now you've got me confused

What do Maximaize/Extend/Empower/etc. give me? How do I use them?
The manual says asomethin about "Spell Slots", but when I tried to take them, I couldn't find a way to CHOOSE which speel from a lower level to empower and use a slot at a higher level...

NOW I'm confused.
You say Auto Quicken sucks, and I should use Auto Still and a +8AC armor.
Means I can stay with low Dex.
Now the question is - how do I get that haste thing? Is there a feat or something that gives me haste, or do you mean I should cast haste and afterwards I get the Auto-Quicken-Like ability?

[QUOTE=Noober]
Defensive Spells:
*Stoneskin / Greater Stoneskin (4 / 6) Drop stoneskin after you get Greater. You can also take Premonition if you really want to. This entire set of spells are made redundant for short term purposes by Epic Warding.
*Energy Buffer ( 5 ) Very good spell
*Lesser / Normal / Greater Spell Mantle ( 5 / 7 / 9 ) Don't take Greater Spell Mantle as an empowered Spell Mantle is in all repects superior. See also Stoneskin/Greater Stoneskin
All Else Offensive Be sure to get Firebrand and Isaac's
[/QUOTE]

So when I get Epic Warding I drop Stoneskin. OK.

Why do I need to empower Speel Mantle?
It gives me 1d8+8 levels of spells immunity => minimum of 1+8=9 which is the highest. Why would i Want to take Greater which gives 1d12+10? There are no level of 22nd level...

[QUOTE=Noober]
I thought you were going Sorc 38/Pally 1/Monk 1 to make the best spell caster in the game. Also Sorc 20/Pally 19/Monk 1 would be FAR better.
[/QUOTE]
How would 19 level of Paladin help me? If I got you right - the moment I cease to be lawful good I loose the Paladin's capabilities, including spell-casting. I'm not sure that I can/want to stay with this alignment...

[QUOTE=Noober]
You lose Pally abilities, but keep Monk abilities.
[/QUOTE]
Meaning that If I'm not lawful good anymore I DON'T GET the enhancement to my Saving Throws(the CHR modifier)?
That's not exactly what I had in mind...

[Xandax]

[QUOTE=AlexKarpman]What do Maximaize/Extend/Empower/etc. give me? How do I use them?
The manual says asomethin about "Spell Slots", but when I tried to take them, I couldn't find a way to CHOOSE which speel from a lower level to empower and use a slot at a higher level...
<snip>
[/QUOTE]

Sorcerers (and bards I think) cast meta-magic "on the fly" so to speak. So you either use the radial menu when casting spells (right click -> cast spells -> Sorcerer -> meta-magic or something similar) to choose a metamagic feat instead or you can assign it to the quickmenu slots.

A wizard (and any other class) memorizes spells as using the meta-magic feats, and thus needs to assign them via his spell book, where they are listed below the known spells.

[Noober]

[QUOTE=AlexKarpman] NOW I'm confused.
You say Auto Quicken sucks, and I should use Auto Still and a +8AC armor.
Means I can stay with low Dex.
Now the question is - how do I get that haste thing? Is there a feat or something that gives me haste, or do you mean I should cast haste and afterwards I get the Auto-Quicken-Like ability?[/QUOTE]

You have two options: Cast Haste ALOT or find Boots of Speed, which grant permanent haste. If your character is 'hasted' you will be able to cast two spells per round (just like if you had Auto-Quicken). There is also an epic feat called Blinding Speed that will give you haste for a small period of time, once per day. Don't get that.

You don't NEED to take Auto-Still + Full Plate, I just want you to know that you shouldn't take Auto-Quicken. You you wanted to spend three feats on something, Auto-Still would be a good choice.



[QUOTE=AlexKarpman] So when I get Epic Warding I drop Stoneskin. OK.

Why do I need to empower Speel Mantle?
It gives me 1d8+8 levels of spells immunity => minimum of 1+8=9 which is the highest. Why would i Want to take Greater which gives 1d12+10? There are no level of 22nd level... [/QUOTE]

Epic Warding last for 1 round per level (6 seconds per level). The Stoneskin spells last for ALOT longer. So for SHORT TERM (i.e. if your fighting a tough character) purposes Epic Warding is alot better.

If you empower Spell Mantle, it will absorb more spells the a Greater Spell Mantle, making Greater Spell mantle a waste of a spell choice.

[QUOTE=AlexKarpman] How would 19 level of Paladin help me? If I got you right - the moment I cease to be lawful good I loose the Paladin's capabilities, including spell-casting. I'm not sure that I can/want to stay with this alignment...[/QUOTE]

Have a look at Divine Shield and Divine Might. If you don't want to play Lawful Good, drop Pally (maybe take Balckguard?).

[QUOTE=AlexKarpman] Meaning that If I'm not lawful good anymore I DON'T GET the enhancement to my Saving Throws(the CHR modifier)?
That's not exactly what I had in mind...[/QUOTE]

I can't remember for sure, but I think that Blackguard will give you similar bonuses.