RPGs... Male dominated

[Ekental]

OK... I mentioned this before on the forum info thingy but I'll do it again for the start of a new thread...
WHY is it that the VAST majority of RPGers are all male?... (And apparently can't pass up the opportunity for a sex joke during the info thread) Just wondering.
And for those couple dozen female RPGers in this forum, let me reiterate to plz NOT hunt me down, viciously maim me and kill me
I already heard the thingy about males being more attracted to computers and RPGs... is that because of the violence and need to regulate testosterone and KILL things? (i.e. bloodlust, bezerkergang?) or just cause we feel good when a goblin turns into a million bloody chunkies?

[Nightmare]

*shrugs* IRL, I know almost as many girl gamers that are into RPGs as males.

[Lost One]

I think violence has something to do with it. I think girls generally like to 'build' things rather than 'destroy' things. Examples for this:

We play with G.I. Joes as kids, or cool destructive robots with all kinds of launchers, guns, and stuff. Girls play nurse, or house keeping with Barbie and Ken.

We like to play Doom, Quake and nuke 'em games. I've noticed that girls (at least from my friends) prefer games like Sims and avoid violent games altogether.

So, in RPG, what we have is a buttload of violence. I don't think this appeals to most girls. In fact, it's funny that I've listened to a lot of women here talking about the Anomen romance and things like that of Baldur's Gate, while it's the guys who actually talk about the super uber deadly combinations of his dual classed kensai/mage.
Also, the few times I've played D&D with girls, they were awful at figuring out which spells or what strategy to adopt in a combat situation. Thus, they were there mostly just to be around friends & socialize, than to actually PLAY the game. Hehehe. And they enjoyed PC and NPC interaction.

So yeah, I think RPG games mostly target the male audience due to its level of destruction. However, successful RPGs (the ones that attract both male & females) are those I believe contain a level of destruction and a level of role-playing. Which is not to say role-playing is strictly a feminine thing, or destruction is a macho thing...but hey, they are strong characteristics of one or the other sex.

[Bloodstalker]

I think games have traditionally been geared towards male players. Don't ask me why. Even with SoA, they got the short end of the romance deal

[Ekental]

You know... maybe it would be nice if a GIIIIRRRRRRLLLLLLLL posted here... so we could have a true opinion rather than the conjectures of a bunch of guys?

Also... sims is an AWESOME game, and i'm sure the GI joes and such are all stereotypes right? I mean, I'm sure we ALL played legos as little kids... and that was quite contructive, I mean, I didn't play GI joes as a little kid, I err.... err.... um.... it was ninja turtles nm

[Lost One]

Yeah, I enjoyed legos as a kid. Only to knock it all down after it was finished. Uahaha....-ahem-

[sparky_kat]

i do agree that it is geared more toward guys, but there are girls out there (like me) who like the violent, bloody destructive games, (especially when we have a bad day and pretend the people we are killing are our bosses, lol) i do beleive that there should be more female rpgs, it could make any game more interesting

bty, imo, SIMS sux, tried it for 5 minutes and had to walk away not my type of game, i would rather be stuck playing my baulders gate games and my diablo games for the rest of my life than try out SIMs again, imo

[Dottie]

I dont buy the violent explanation. I think girls play less RPG because of tradition and perhaps to some degree marketing, and I think the same is true for computer games. The reason is that should people make their choices based on actually wanting the what the stereotype provides (in contrast to the stereotype itself) the world would look much different.

RPGs can contain any level of violence, and so can computer games, yet you dont just see fewer girls playing violent RPGs, you see fewer girls playing any RPG, And I think that, perhaps with the exeption of some asian nations, the same is true for computer games.

[Lost One]

I dont buy the violent explanation. I think girls play less RPG because of tradition and perhaps to some degree marketing, and I think the same is true for computer games. The reason is that should people make their choices based on actually wanting the what the stereotype provides (in contrast to the stereotype itself) the world would look much different.

Call it machismo, or whatever, but I sincerely believe violence is a big part of it. I've asked other girls I know, and they say they don't generally like violence or seeing blood splatter all over the place. This is not to say there aren't girls that like violence, but hey, who wouldn't agree that violence is a main trait of the male species? If it were otherwise, how come all the girls don't play violent games or watch violent sports/films with as much frequency as guys do? Me, I like to think there are psychological differences between the sexes, which is one of the reasons why I am attracted to girls in the first place.

And I'm sorry, but I have yet to see an RPG computer game that has a low-level of violence.

PS: Nothing is black & white. And observe how I say most girls and not all girls...and things like that.

[fable]

This is not to say there aren't girls that like violence, but hey, who wouldn't agree that violence is a main trait of the male species?

Quite a few people who have studied cultural conditioning. That's what such things amount to. (And yes, I know you were speaking at least half in jest. ) Personally, I don't like films filled with violence, but my wife enjoys Chuck Norris stuff. I suspect my distaste is at least in part due to an abusive childhood, while my wife's derives from her RN training which instills a very pragmatic, non-emotional reaction to blood and wounds. Even so, it just shows that the stereotypes are just that--stereotypes--and that in other cultures, under other circumstances, men and women act differently.

I used to play MMORPGs extensively at one time, and I found an equal number of men and women in the games (at least, in so far as one could tell). Those women whom I did know in reallife that played were just as ambitious to advance and bloodthirsty as the guys. I suspect that the conditioning that led to women being violence-shy has faded in at least a few modern urban societies.

[Lost One]

[QUOTE=fable]This is not to say there aren't girls that like violence, but hey, who wouldn't agree that violence is a main trait of the male species?

Quite a few people who have studied cultural conditioning. That's what such things amount to. (And yes, I know you were speaking at least half in jest. ) Personally, I don't like films filled with violence, but my wife enjoys Chuck Norris stuff. I suspect my distaste is at least in part due to an abusive childhood, while my wife's derives from her RN training which instills a very pragmatic, non-emotional reaction to blood and wounds. Even so, it just shows that the stereotypes are just that--stereotypes--and that in other cultures, under other circumstances, men and women act differently.

I used to play MMORPGs extensively at one time, and I found an equal number of men and women in the games (at least, in so far as one could tell). Those women whom I did know in reallife that played were just as ambitious to advance and bloodthirsty as the guys. I suspect that the conditioning that led to women being violence-shy has faded in at least a few modern urban societies.[/QUOTE]

Fable, I'm well aware there are inumerous cases which one could mention of women enjoying the aspect of violence as much, or more, than men. However, throughout all my life, living in modern capitals such as London, Amsterdam and Rio de Janeiro, I've seen much more of the contrary. In London, I used to play rugby and watch soccer in pubs with male friends. Yes, I have come across female rugby players, and I have sighted more than a fair share of women also watching soccer in pubs...but always, the vast majority are males doing this. Just like the vast majority of soldiers, hooligans, terrorists, police, and whatever field of violent activity concerned, are made of males. Thus, while you present cases of women that are just as aggressive and/or violent as men...I challenge you to prove that this is not a minority. There is no modern Amazon society that I know of.

Anyway, if you would agree with me that men GENERALLY, and as a majority, prefer violence more than women...it would explain why games in the RPG genre (that are MOSTLY violent) don't attract women as much as it does to men. I'm looking at the big picture...you're picking individual cases.

[Dottie]

[QUOTE=Lost One]Call it machismo, or whatever, but I sincerely believe violence is a big part of it. I've asked other girls I know, and they say they don't generally like violence or seeing blood splatter all over the place. This is not to say there aren't girls that like violence, but hey, who wouldn't agree that violence is a main trait of the male species? If it were otherwise, how come all the girls don't play violent games or watch violent sports/films with as much frequency as guys do? Me, I like to think there are psychological differences between the sexes, which is one of the reasons why I am attracted to girls in the first place.

And I'm sorry, but I have yet to see an RPG computer game that has a low-level of violence.

PS: Nothing is black & white. And observe how I say most girls and not all girls...and things like that.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, I think the reason why girls do "girly" things are because its a cultural tradition.

I didnt say computer RPG, I said RPG, and I've played numerous sessions where the amount of viloence was zero, and there is nothing to stop any girl from doing the same. That leads me to the conclusion that violence is not the problem, but rather that RPGs are a part of a very male-dominated culture, as is computer games (or atleast have been).

I noticed you said all girls, but you seem to miss my point. Im arguing that the dominance of a particular gender in areas that are usally connected to that gender are mostly a result of culture, not a result of important features in that area, like violence level, connects to important features for that gender. Again, if important features was what controled our behaviour there are many things that would be different, some of them have been mentioned here.

[Lost One]

[QUOTE=Dottie]Like I said, I think the reason why girls do "girly" things are because its a cultural tradition.

I didnt say computer RPG, I said RPG, and I've played numerous sessions where the amount of viloence was zero, and there is nothing to stop any girl from doing the same. That leads me to the conclusion that violence is not the problem, but rather that RPGs are a part of a very male-dominated culture, as is computer games (or atleast have been).

I noticed you said all girls, but you seem to miss my point. Im arguing that the dominance of a particular gender in areas that are usally connected to that gender are mostly a result of culture, not a result of important features in that area, like violence level, connects to important features for that gender. Again, if important features was what controled our behaviour there are many things that would be different, some of them have been mentioned here.[/QUOTE]

Well, I'm a firm believer that there are differences between man and woman that goes beyond a physical level and not simply the result of culture. I think that women, with their natural qualities of giving birth and breastfeeding, caring for their babies gives them more of a maternal, protective nature than the aggressive/violent nature that males exude. And that, even among most (perhaps not all) of primitive human tribes show that females are not as aggressive as males. Isn't primitive culture something that stems from our primitive core being? In that sense, I do believe that we, males, have a natural tendency to be more violent than women.

So, when you say that RPGs are a male-dominated culture, and yet it is NOT because of the violence, I'm inclined to disagree. There is nothing stopping a woman from playing RPGs. Since the release of RPGs, there has not been a sign with any game box that says 'women not allowed to play'. I know I have called some girls to play RPG games that I found interesting, and yet, try as they might, they just didn't like it. RPG isn't like a Physical Educations class where the girls can't play ball with the guys. It's there for everyone. And yet, even though I know many girls who use computers daily, and also play games daily, they simply do not like RPGs. I believe this is mostly because of the violence factor in these games, and the large preoccupation these games have with a combat system (which is tedious to these girls I know). You disagree with me by saying it's just the fact that RPG is a male tradition. Well, I do think there are differences between men and women that is not just culturally based, that makes us have higher predispositions towards one thing than the other.

[Dottie]

If violence was the problem, and culture was not we should se a higher correrlation between violence and girls than rpgs and girls, so I ask why is that not the case? Why is it not so that males play violent RPGs and females play non violent RPGs? If your explanation was true it should be that way. Instead we have a situation were males play more RPGs (violent and non violent) than females do. I think that clearly points towards violence not being a big part of the equation.

You ask a few questions that I dont understand the relevance of, if it is something you want me to comment say so and I will try my best.

[Xandax]

I'll have to agree with Dottie (and co.) here.
Personally - I think it is very much a cultural thing.

Back in the earlier days of gaming, it was almost exclusively a "boys club", it was very rare that I encountered female gamers in those days.
Now the female populations are making a dash for the market, and so they proberly choose "unisex" games to start with (or non-violent as Lost One would likely call them).
However - this is the same aspect as with all things in our (western modern) societies. There have been a cultural difference between male and female throughout history, and only duing the last 40-50 years or so have the barriers started to break down and yet, there is still a long way to go.
For instance - most students on purely mathematical studies (ie engineer, computer sciene and so on) in Denmark are males - where as the "softer" educations such as humanistic stuidies are higher percentage female.
These barriers are the same in my opinion as with games. Some are traditionally "masculine" while some are "feminine". However we are starting to see a larger mixture of gender-ratio on such educations.
Also - take the business world - not many year ago - almost every (executive) manager where male, and now women are starting to make that transition as well, although slowly.
The military is also starting to see more women enter service as well.

I do however think violence has something to do with it - but it is not because females per definition distances themselves from it psychological or dislike it, more then males do. I my opinion it is a remnant from the culture of old, where men was stronger and had to be more aggressive to bring back the food. Where it was a need to survive, that the physical stronger needed to be agressive.
This is increasingly disappearing in our time, because after WW2 it has started to become more of a norm with 2-income families - where the male isn't necessarily the more "aggressive" in terms of providing for the family.
It is no longer necessary in our society for males to be the "aggressive hunter" and the female to be the "caretaker", and thus we see these borders being wiped or blurred.

Encourage a boy to play with dolls, and I'm sure he can and will develop a maternal instinct - just as if he was a girl, and vice versa with girls.
It is cultural how we raise children and that shapes them.

We are at least as much (if not more in my opinion) a product of our environment as we are of our heredity.

[Lost One]

[QUOTE=Dottie]If violence was the problem, and culture was not we should se a higher correrlation between violence and girls than rpgs and girls, so I ask why is that not the case? Why is it not so that males play violent RPGs and females play non violent RPGs? If your explanation was true it should be that way. Instead we have a situation were males play more RPGs (violent and non violent) than females do. I think that clearly points towards violence not being a big part of the equation.[/QUOTE]

The problem is that most RPGs are violent. Even if you can play it non-violently, all RPGs I know are geared towards violence. D&D, Gurps, Kult, most of these games have a complex system designed specifically for combat and numerous ways proposed (such as levelling, getting magical gear, and so on) to make your character more powerful. While there is role-playing too, there is a healthy dosage in most RPG games of violence. And yes, I have noticed that females generally play more non violent RPGs if there was ever one. For example, Vampire: the Masquerade, a game with less combat and power advancement mechanics is one of the few RPG games that girls in my region actually enjoy playing. I'm not a big fan of the game, but I know a fair number of girls that enjoy playing it, while they do not like D&D. I think it's because in Vampire, our sessions were more intrigue/suspense/social interaction than ours in D&D, which included role-playing, but used up a lot of time developing a character sheet, rolling combat dice for a single encounter, and just being preocuppied with hit points, spells per day, AC and whole load of other combat mechanics.

So yes, I do think even amongst RPGs, girls generally choose ones with a lower violence content and higher role-play content. Which is one of the reasons I think BG2 made such a success amongst both genders...because of the level of violence and yet, wonderfully well made story, NPC interaction and romances.

[fable]

[QUOTE=Lost One]Anyway, if you would agree with me that men GENERALLY, and as a majority, prefer violence more than women...it would explain why games in the RPG genre (that are MOSTLY violent) don't attract women as much as it does to men. I'm looking at the big picture...you're picking individual cases. [/QUOTE]

I can agree with this if we add the stipulation that it's all due to cultural training. That explains, for example, why boys are more likely to take the lead roles in violence among street gangs in the US--not any inherent "violent" gene, which scientists have repeatedly shown doesn't exist. On the contrary, there have been studies done in some of the remaining "primitive" cultures that show where women are trained as hunters and men as nurturers, the women are more violence-prone and ambitious.

As it stands now, I think we may be in a transitionally state on this issue (and some others) in major urban Western societies. In places like New York City, Chicago, San Francisco and LA, women are just as job-focused. cutthroat, materially oriented and violence prone as men. Many women attend not only defense classes, but classes to teach martial arts that go far beyond simple defensive moves.

Note that this takes into account dominant role activities, rather than simply physical violence. If we're to limit ourselves solely to the latter, we'll have to turn to statistics. And while reports of physical assaults in the home in the US continue to overwhelmingly favor men, scientific studies have also shown that female-on-male violence often goes unreported for fear of social ridicule. Actual estimates would seem to indicate that physical violence by females in the home represent fully 25% of family abuse, and the number has been steadily increasing for the last couple of decades.

[Gwalchmai]

I’m not sure it has anything to do with violence at all, and I think the recent rise in girl-gang activity demonstrates that violence is not by any means an exclusive male purview.

I would suggest an alternative, and equally generalized, possibility. I think it has to do with sociability and the trend toward more males being willing to sit by themselves playing a computer game while more females would prefer to be interacting with real people. In the old days, before MMORPGs, internet chat, and gaming forums, computer gaming was much more of a solitary event, unless you had two paddles for your Attari. Females have not become interested in computer games until you have RPGs with detailed party interactions and the ability to share the experience.

I think violence in computer games is simply a sensational marketing tool (that appeals to a subgroup of both males and females), not so much a reason for the market being dominated by young males. Game developers have many other tools at their disposal that they use to equal effectiveness.

[dragon wench]

[QUOTE=Lost One]Well, I'm a firm believer that there are differences between man and woman that goes beyond a physical level and not simply the result of culture. I think that women, with their natural qualities of giving birth and breastfeeding, caring for their babies gives them more of a maternal, protective nature than the aggressive/violent nature that males exude. And that, even among most (perhaps not all) of primitive human tribes show that females are not as aggressive as males. Isn't primitive culture something that stems from our primitive core being? In that sense, I do believe that we, males, have a natural tendency to be more violent than women.

So, when you say that RPGs are a male-dominated culture, and yet it is NOT because of the violence, I'm inclined to disagree. There is nothing stopping a woman from playing RPGs. Since the release of RPGs, there has not been a sign with any game box that says 'women not allowed to play'. I know I have called some girls to play RPG games that I found interesting, and yet, try as they might, they just didn't like it. RPG isn't like a Physical Educations class where the girls can't play ball with the guys. It's there for everyone. And yet, even though I know many girls who use computers daily, and also play games daily, they simply do not like RPGs. I believe this is mostly because of the violence factor in these games, and the large preoccupation these games have with a combat system (which is tedious to these girls I know). You disagree with me by saying it's just the fact that RPG is a male tradition. Well, I do think there are differences between men and women that is not just culturally based, that makes us have higher predispositions towards one thing than the other.[/QUOTE]

This is a question that has long interested me.. Just how different are women and men? Are the differences (should they even exist) determined by biology? How much is cultural conditioning? How much is perpetuated by the creation of stereotypes and social expectations?

I realise I am broadening out this topic, so if people prefer I can create a new thread But it does seem to fit here.

I know personally that I prefer games with a large amount of NPC interaction and a well-developed story line. I generally do not enjoy games that are extremely violent. This does place me into a certain stereotype.. However, many of the men I know share my preferences. I am inclined to think that the types of games people play (no, not *that* kind ), are as much determined by personality types. In my own experience, I have found people who have an interest in literature, the social sciences, who are generally creative... gravitate more readily to games that are focused on story and NPC interaction...

Nonetheless, everyone needs to blow off steam sometimes. I know that my choice in a game or the type of character I create is often a result of mood. For example if I play SoA I will invariably select some type of spellcaster or stealth-like character if I am feeling a bit more mellow. Conversely if my life is not going well and I really feel the urge to beat something up, I will generally create a kensai or something similar. This is probably why I will frequently have several different save games with different characters at any given time.

I don't know... I have a problem with the notion that men are naturally aggressive and prone to violence etc. Equally, I reject that women are naturally maternal and more collectivist in nature. This perpetuates stereotypes, and in the wrong hands it can be employed to justify many different social wrongs. As an example, for a very long time men were frequently excused for rape on the grounds that 'they could not help it because it was in their nature to have strong and difficult to control needs.' It was, therefore, the responsibility of women to neither tempt nor provoke, and any woman who appeared to deviate from that expectation was considered a whore, and a legitimate target....

Yes, this is an extreme example, but I chose it deliberately in order to highlight just what can happen when stereotypes and social expectations are accepted without critical evaluation.

[Ekental]

[QUOTE=fable]This is not to say there aren't girls that like violence, but hey, who wouldn't agree that violence is a main trait of the male species?

Quite a few people who have studied cultural conditioning. That's what such things amount to. (And yes, I know you were speaking at least half in jest. ) Personally, I don't like films filled with violence, but my wife enjoys Chuck Norris stuff. I suspect my distaste is at least in part due to an abusive childhood, while my wife's derives from her RN training which instills a very pragmatic, non-emotional reaction to blood and wounds. Even so, it just shows that the stereotypes are just that--stereotypes--and that in other cultures, under other circumstances, men and women act differently.

I used to play MMORPGs extensively at one time, and I found an equal number of men and women in the games (at least, in so far as one could tell). Those women whom I did know in reallife that played were just as ambitious to advance and bloodthirsty as the guys. I suspect that the conditioning that led to women being violence-shy has faded in at least a few modern urban societies.[/QUOTE]

errmmm.... do keep in mind that many of the girls are ACTUALLY guys PLAYING as girls. While girls do this to you just don't find quite the same ammount, (Prolly something to do with the bikini style character skins on girls )

As for the differences between girls and guys pyschologically, the different natural steroids might prove to be a large factor in behavioral tendencies and would help explain why guys like violence more than girls.

Also... as for people who are interested in literature and play BG for the storyline, I know a total of .... 0 people. Of the people who are interested in physics, chem, math, who play BG for the storyline (and the violence,blood and gore, and they seem to get blurred together) I know.... 13
End result is that I beilieve that RPGers are normally the hardcore techies and not the fuzzies (Social sciences... >.>)