Behold the truth of thine foes!

RPGeek · Post by **RPGeek** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 9:17 am

*ahem*
Only Lawful Good Priests can create Clay Golems.

RPGeek · Post by **RPGeek** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 12:56 pm

Gnome...Goblin...Here we are. Golem.

From the Monstrous Manual (A book containing many of the monsters of AD&D)

Golem, General
Golems are magically created automatons of great power. The construction of ne involves mighty magic and elemental forces.

Background: Golems predate any known literature about their creation. The wizard who discovered the process, if indeed there was only one, is unknown. Some of the rediscverers have written their secrets in various arcane manuals, enchanted to aid the reader in construction. it is thought that the first golem created was a flesh golem, possibly an accident of some great wizard experimenting with reanimating human bodies. Flesh golems are easier to make than any other sort because they are made of organic material that once lived. Later, the process was generalized to suit certain materials, which produce much stronger golems.

Theory: Golems are made from elemental material. So far, the great wizards have only disvocered how to use various earthen materials, such as clay, stone, iron, and even glass, to make golems. The exceptions, such a the flesh golem, use organic materials as components. The animating force of the golem is an elemental spirit from the elemental plane of Earth. Since the spirit is not a natural part of the body, it is not affected by most spells or even by most weapons (see individual descriptions).

Just a bit of history.

Clay Golems
Only a lawful good priest can create a clay golem. The body is sculpted from a single block of clay weighing at least 1000 pounds, which takes about a month. The vestments, which cost 30,000 gp, are the only materials that are not consumed and can be reused, reducing the total cost after the first golem. The spells used are ressurection, animate object, commune, prayer, and bless.

Actually, the question of class is not the main concern, it's the question of aligment.
SPOILER:
For example, the Drow have Clay Golems on BG2! The fact that Jon Irenicus have them in the beginning may simply imply that he was an elven wizard/priest before he was exiled.
The Drow, on the other hand, is an outrage.
Fie at ye, Black Isle!

Metatron · Post by **Metatron** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 1:15 pm

That's patently ridiculous. I don't care what the monstrous manual says. It's just a lame attempt to link the D&D golems to the "real" golem anyway.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 1:23 pm

oh, this raises a difficult issue. did i just wipe out the only lawful good enclave of drow in the relms?

----

actually i rather like the clay golems, i'll never forget the first time i faced them.
no effect
no effect
i need a bigger sword
no effect
my weapon does nothing...

RPGeek · Post by **RPGeek** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 1:55 pm

...And then you found the quarterstaff that eliminates Clay Golems.

@Metatron D&D Golems and BG Golems are the same types of golems. We're not talking of real golems now. We're talking of D&D.

@koz-ivan No, only the priests were LG, and the demon they summoned was a disguised Celestial. They do have a reputation to maintain, after all.

BilboTheHobbit · Post by **BilboTheHobbit** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 2:27 pm

Isn't it somekinda jewish priest who was supposed to create the first golem out of clay?

Metatron · Post by **Metatron** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 4:27 pm

Originally posted by RPgeek:
@Metatron D&D Golems and BG Golems are the same types of golems. We're not talking of real golems now. We're talking of D&D.

All's I'm saying is that that's jive. I don't understand why only Lawful Good Priests should be able to create clay golems, therefore I'm more than happy to overlook it.

Metatron · Post by **Metatron** » Tue Jul 24, 2001 4:28 pm

Originally posted by BilboTheHobbit:
Isn't it somekinda jewish priest who was supposed to create the first golem out of clay?

Yeah, to protect his people from the christians. Then it went berserk and started killing everyone. Supposedly they buried it under the cathedral at Prague.

RPGeek · Post by **RPGeek** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 4:26 am

All's I'm saying is that that's jive. I don't understand why only Lawful Good Priests should be able to create clay golems, therefore I'm more than happy to overlook it.

You obviously don't understand the fact that Golem-creation is a religion, just like the Smurfs.

I didn't know about the Clay Golem in our campaign setting, though.

nael · Post by **nael** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 6:28 am

i'm gettign really sick of all those smurf devotees knockign on my door tryign to push their religion on me

cgardenh · Post by **cgardenh** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 6:42 am

Metatron, Clay golems were created by jewish cabbalists according to myth, as you alluded. Assuming most jewish priests are lawful good I would expect that that is why the D+D people decided to allow only these folks to create them. As far as I know there are no other mentions of golem making in actual myth(not D+D). Since real myths (there's a paradoxical statement for you) are the source material for D+D I think it makes pretty good sense. The wizard golems were an outgrowth of this original idea.

Metatron · Post by **Metatron** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 9:49 am

Originally posted by cgardenh:
Metatron, Clay golems were created by jewish cabbalists according to myth, as you alluded. Assuming most jewish priests are lawful good I would expect that that is why the D+D people decided to allow only these folks to create them. As far as I know there are no other mentions of golem making in actual myth(not D+D). Since real myths (there's a paradoxical statement for you) are the source material for D+D I think it makes pretty good sense. The wizard golems were an outgrowth of this original idea.

See, the thing is that IMHO, real world kabbalistic magic has far more in common with D&D 'arcane' magic than D&D 'divine' magic, since kabbalah and hermeticism rely on reproducing abstract formulae and rituals more than mere prayer. Therefore, the rabbi who created the Golem would be more similar to a D&D mage than a D&D cleric.
But like I said, that's just me. I'm sure most people don't even care. Heh.

Saruman · Post by **Saruman** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 10:05 am

Right then lets see how much of my religious studies I can remember

While I agree that Khabbalistic magick does have more in common with Mages rather than priests in ADnD. The clay Golem in Jewish myth was created by sculpting a human form out of clay and then placing a piece of parchment with the true name of god into the statues mouth. The golem was created to protect the faithful from christians.

So the way the Golem was created was an act of faith and the reason it was created was to defend the faith. Therefore if anyone is going to create golems it would be a priest.

As to why a lawful good priest, it is not my intention to insult anyones religion but I cannot see the Jewish faith as being particuarly good (although on the whole it is lawful) The jewish faith believes that there is only one god and that he created everything including both good and evil therefore I would descibe the jewish god as lawful neutral if I had to descibe it in ADnD terms

RPGeek · Post by **RPGeek** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 12:49 pm

Priest spells also include rituals (to prove their faith to their God).
The spells used to create a Clay Golem are:
Ressurection takes 10 minutes of playing with holy water and ritual.
Animate Object takes 9 minutes of somatic and verbal preparing (a ritual of a sorts, I guess) to cast.
Commune takes an additional 10 minutes of Verbal, Somatic, and Material preparation.
Prayer takes 6 minutes (V,S,M).
Bless takes one minute. (V,S,M).
Finally, Permanent Protection From Yellow Smurfs takes three days of preparation and twenty minutes to cast.
That makes a total of 10+9+10+6+1+20+4320=4376 minutes, plus the forging of the Golem, which may take several years, which implies you must hire guards to protect yourself from yellow smurfs.

Doltan · Post by **Doltan** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 2:08 pm

Originally posted by Saruman:
 As to why a lawful good priest, it is not my intention to insult anyones religion but I cannot see the Jewish faith as being particuarly good (although on the whole it is lawful) The jewish faith believes that there is only one god and that he created everything including both good and evil therefore I would descibe the jewish god as lawful neutral if I had to descibe it in ADnD terms

While I am certainly not a theologian, I thought that the Jewish faith (and likewise Christians) felt that God is good, and that all of God's creation is good. Evil exists because God allowed humans to have free will (i.e. Adam and Eve eating the apple). Certainly Jews and Christians would consider themselves good, no matter the "alignment" of the "One True God," which is really immaterial in a monotheistic faith.

I'd be curious to hear other's opinions on this (any B.S./Ph.D. theologians out there?).

Saruman · Post by **Saruman** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 2:19 am

Doltan, If you are interested for further reference on the Jewish perceptions of God and the creation of good and evil have a look at this page;

[url="http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm"]http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm[/url]

RPGeek · Post by **RPGeek** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 3:00 am

Doltan, the fact that God created evil does not mean that the Jews have to follow evil.

Saruman · Post by **Saruman** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 3:13 am

Whether or not Jews are evil was neither mentioned or implied, What I mentioned was that according to sources I had read Jews believed that god created both good and evil and therefore conforms more to the ADnD perception of a neutral diety

incandescent one · Post by **incandescent one** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 3:59 am

But what is good without evil to compare it to ? Despite creating both good and evil, He favors good, which is decidedly not neutral.