RPGs... Male dominated

[fable]

I see. And I suppose before the Victorian Era...and even during primitive ages, such as the Stone Age, women were also conditioned to 'not display sexual arousal'? In the time of the caves, nothing suggests that was there any 'conditioning'.

I can't speak to the caves as prehistory means just that--no recorded evidece; but from a study for years of Western Europe during the early Renaissance (1200-1400 ACE), I can tell you that yes, women were definitely encouraged not to show any expression of sexual desire. There are literally hundreds of sermons extant condemning "Woman" because Eve led to Adam's downfall; hence, all vices spring from Woman. Women were conditioned from an early age (and there are surviving manuscripts) to recognize that they were inferior to men, should never show desire in anything, save to serve their lieges--their husbands.

And lest this seem to be a condemnation of Christianity alone, there was a very popular medical treatise from Islam that insisted women were simply fetuses that had not matured sufficiently to become men. This explained why they were incapable of rational thought, and had to be disciplined from an early age to be led by others.

Plenty of conditioning, there. And the double standard continues to this day in many cultures, evincing the conditioning you wished to hear about. But as for the early Renaissance, if you'd like, I'll gladly post some samples.

[Lost One]

Indeed there was Fable. But note how I said 'In the time of the caves...nothing suggests there was any conditioning'. I'm well aware that throughout the history of civilization there has been conditioning, that has led to women being more passive, and non-violent than men. I've never argued against that. I'm just saying that there is more to that, which is of our own nature...and that is the very next thing I said which you didn't leave in the quote...which is that I believe men are more sexually agressive than women. And as a result of not only social conditioning, but of our biological differences.

Anyway...I'm gonna open up a new topic on this as soon as I dig up some facts.

EDIT: Heh, Bloodstalker beat me to it.

[Sojourner]

[QUOTE=Lost One]It is also because women become mothers, that they are given a maternal instinct (especially when they're pregnant, and after having their first child) which makes them naturally more protective and less violent. [/QUOTE]

Your neat little theory fails to explain the abuse cases making the papers on a daily basis. And let's not forget the extreme cases of infanticide.

[Scayde]

*deleted with my apologies *

[Demortis]

I have one more thing to say about this subject. Im really sorry i said anything i know it would have been said anyways but i said it first and i really think we got off topic here.

here were talking about gnomes and hormones and the reality is i dont think any of that has to do with it, its all a state on mind. and this conclusion is based on the evidence provided. yes more women are playing video games then ever and they will bring there friends in to it. It started as a male dominated area but it will soon be equal and is a very i mean very good conclusion that more women will dominate the gaming industry.

[Demortis]

And i think some one should beat or remove scyade its kinda disturbine to have some one so very off subject in here.

[Lost One]

Your neat little theory fails to explain the abuse cases making the papers on a daily basis. And let's not forget the extreme cases of infanticide.

I posted it in the other thread, but I'll place the link here too, in response to your post.

Further discussions regarding my comments, or the male vs. female gender specifically (with no reference to RPG), take it to the appropriate thread please.

[fable]

[QUOTE=Lost One]Indeed there was Fable. But note how I said 'In the time of the caves...nothing suggests there was any conditioning'. [/quote]

I'm afraid I'm confused. If something has no records to document its existence, how can you claim this backs your position? One might as well claim that there's nothing to suggest prehistoric humanity during earlier periods had no conditioning. Where lack of documentation is a problem, no side can declare an advantage.

And in modern times, we have uncovered several "prehistoric" tribes, many of whom have been carefully researched without disturbing the natural, cultural milieu. Among the aspects anthropologists have noted is the very prominent social conditioning that takes place at several important times in any tribal member's life. For example, young boys and girls in almost all worldwide tribal settings go through major, separate initiation rites as early as age 8, that define part of their role and community in the tribe. These rites often last for as long as a month, during which they are removed from the tribal confines.

[Bloodthroe]

Answer me this, Fable or anyone...women have PMT (pre-menstrual tension) while guys don't. Now, we all know that PMT can create mood swings, so how is that not a case for biology affecting minds?

So PMT affects women the few days leading up to a woman's period. I don't think, that would dictate the way they act the rest of the month.

Likewise, you can find a number of other biological things that create differences.

Okay... can you?

Of course men develop a deep connection to their unborn children...but not as deep as that of a mother IMO.

Of course in your opinion. Often with many people the case is that both of the parents develop a deep connection to their children equally or the father more then the mother. Really, it boils down to what kind of person you are.

I don't know why the steriotype has become that women care more then men. Whatever the reason, I don't think it matters. It's a steriotype and it's especially insulting to those it dosen't apply to.

Don't say...not nearly as many as the opposite. Legally speaking (at least here)...a women cannot rape a man...as rape constitutes forcing the penis into a vagina.

Rape is the crime of forcing another person to submit to sexual intercourse. Despite what the law some guy made up, says. The law you follow is not univesal in any way.

This kind of information comes out in magazines, news stories and stuff like that all the time...

Theories come out all the time... they do lot's of tests, but there's no hard proof. There is proof however, that people do act this way because of psychological affects.

Women, for having had the child inside them, have a deeper bond than men have. It's funny how other women here (including my mother) think the same as me.

Many people believe these steriotypes because they grew up being told them. ...It's like religion. Most people end up believing in the one they were told is the right one.

I just said they are not as sexually agressive as men.

This is not about the topic... is it? The only real big biological differense I can think of that would truely affect the way a person acts the way they do, is that men have more testosterone that makes them have better chances for becoming aggressive more often (not that women couldn't be driven to being aggressive more often then men) and women have more estrogen which would make them more often sensitive. This also wouldn't explain why in the last few years the number of women who play video games has sky-rocketed. Which leads me to my belief that the main reason for this is psychological.

I realize there are little differenses in the way our bodies both work in senses of percent, but they don't seem to make any weighted differenses. A man and a women will both agree if a movie is too long and too boring.

[Lost One]

So PMT affects women the few days leading up to a woman's period. I don't think, that would dictate the way they act the rest of the month.

Sure, but you agree it does affect them, right? That is a case for biological differences affecting a person's mind.

Okay... can you?

Yes, if you had bothered to read the more appropriate thread I was talking about and was opened specifically for this discussion, Male vs Female gender differences, you'd be able to read on some sources for my defense. Anyway, click here in case you can't find it.

Of course in your opinion. Often with many people the case is that both of the parents develop a deep connection to their children equally or the father more then the mother. Really, it boils down to what kind of person you are.

I don't know why the steriotype has become that women care more then men. Whatever the reason, I don't think it matters. It's a steriotype and it's especially insulting to those it dosen't apply to.

Agreed, but I think there are reasons for why a mother is more connected to her baby, not the least is the fact that the baby was inside her.
I also like to call it 'maternal instinct'. If you disagree with this, take a good look at nature, and read the arguments I've presented in the other thread.

Rape is the crime of forcing another person to submit to sexual intercourse. Despite what the law some guy made up, says. The law you follow is not univesal in any way.

I hear, that just in the USA, different states define crimes like 'rape' differently. And there are clearly more cases of men raping women, than women 'raping' men. After all, for a guy to be 'raped' by a woman, that does not involve inserting an item through the backyard, he has to be turned on...a limp penis is of no use. Whereas for women, this does not matter. Anyway, this is another discussion entirely.

Theories come out all the time... they do lot's of tests, but there's no hard proof. There is proof however, that people do act this way because of psychological affects.

There is. And my arguments have been that these psychological affects stem from both cultural conditioning and biological/physiological differences. There is scientific proof that male and female brains work differently...and a number of popular figures such as Freud say that women go through different psychological processes than men, one of which is the Electra complex (or 'penis envy').

Many people believe these steriotypes because they grew up being told them. ...It's like religion. Most people end up believing in the one they were told is the right one.

This goes beyond simple stereotyping. It has scientific and sociological evidence on both sides.

This is not about the topic... is it? The only real big biological differense I can think of that would truely affect the way a person acts the way they do, is that men have more testosterone that makes them have better chances for becoming aggressive more often (not that women couldn't be driven to being aggressive more often then men) and women have more estrogen which would make them more often sensitive. This also wouldn't explain why in the last few years the number of women who play video games has sky-rocketed. Which leads me to my belief that the main reason for this is psychological.

I realize there are little differenses in the way our bodies both work in senses of percent, but they don't seem to make any weighted differenses. A man and a women will both agree if a movie is too long and too boring.

Yes, men are given added testosterone at the time of birth than women, which is said to affect their behavior in the future...even though a woman can have more testosterone than a man later on. As for the main reason being psychological, this is obvious. No one has contested this. The argument was how much of this psychological reason stems from cultural conditioning or physiological/biological differences. But that's where the other thread came in.

As for the topic at hand, I'll say that at least during these times, I have found many women who don't play RPG because they simply find it boring, with too much attention to the combat system. I suppose I should not have said violence per se, which is misleading. There is hardly enough gore & realistic detail to blood and death in RPG games to upset anybody. My point is that women, generally (and at this age), prefer games that do not include shooting or killing almost everything in sight. I'll willingly conduct a survey, if you doubt this. As for what are the reasons behind this, while I agree there has been a certain male tradition behind computer RPG games (eg. the creators are male, and generally target a male audience), I also believe that there are some core elements (eg. intense combat and too much detail to power advancement & system) that inherently attract a male's nature more than that of a woman. Of course, if you believe men and women are alike under all psychological aspects, then you'll not agree with this. I plan to work with marketing as soon as I finish my Business Administration course, and I know that I'll have to look at these differences when deciding how I am going to reach out to the targets of my product (whether male, female, old, young). If my cellphone company currently attends an audience that is 80% male, then how can I attract more women into using my cellphone? For this purpose, stereotyping is essential and looking at gender-based differences. Though granted, on an individual level, it is less significant.

[Ekental]

whoa..... I have been away from this for way way too long, suddenly theres 5 pages of this...
So to sum it up, we seem to agree that it is a plethora of factors, from biological, to "cultural conditioning"?
We also seem to agree to disagree?
This sum it up?

[Metametheus]

Doesn't Float there Boat

Probably not too much into the gaming... thing, about the only game I've seen sudnificant Female Integrity is the Sims Online. Other than that in Everquest you got a 20% chance of guessing if a female character on everquest is a female, and about a 45% chance on AO. Fortunately I married a Gamer, and no she isn't going to hunt you down dude, she agrees with you in some ways.

[Xandax]

[QUOTE=Ekental]whoa..... I have been away from this for way way too long, suddenly theres 5 pages of this...
So to sum it up, we seem to agree that it is a plethora of factors, from biological, to "cultural conditioning"?
We also seem to agree to disagree?
This sum it up?[/QUOTE]

yeah - something like that.

There is a group that thinks most pyscological/mental diffence between genders are caused by cultural differences throughout the ages.
And another group that thinks it (more) evenly comes from biology and conditioning.

[Ekental]

huh... well the issue of how many girls really DO play MMORPGs is still there... I seriously just can't see a game where the "playing field" I guess we're dubbing it, has lvled out. Can anyone reply with a game like that?

[Xandax]

Nobody is saying it is leveled out.
People are saying that the increase in females playing are increasing.

Computer games are still male dominated, but it is much less so now then it was say 5 years ago. Give it time and I'm sure we will see a level playing field.

[C Elegans]

Oh my....I don't know where to start. When gender issues are discussed, there is usually lots of opinion but very little fact. I can see that is the case also in this thread.

Gender questions engage many people since a vast majority of us belongs to one gender, and gender is also one of the most fundamental identity categories we use for ourselves and others. Sociologists have demonstrated that we firsty identify ourselves as human (ie not belong to another species), second as having a gender (male or female), third, according to social class and forth according to ethnic and/or religious groups.

Gender differences is part of the social structure and often also the social stratification in many cultures. Thus, it is a loaded question since it is associated with values and norms in a culture. In my post below, I will try to present some scientific findings. The advantage with scientific studies is that they use objective measurement methods, whereas anecdotal evidence, ie personal experiences are often biased by the fact that we all live in a certain culture and we tend to interpret information according to our own learning history.

In this thread, I see lots of assumptions, personal opinion and anecdotal evidence. There are no references to scientific findings, but instead, some references from popular media such as newspapers. The thread also contains some factual error, for instance that women masturbate less than men, or that female perpertrators of sexual violence is uncommon. Also, there seems to be a misunderstanding regarding how sex hormones, ie androgen, progesteron and estrogen, affect behaviour.

I have a lot of things I'd like to post in this thread and the other gender thread as well. I'll try to split it up into computer game-related stuff (here) and general gender issues (the other thread).
For those of you who don't know me and might wonder why Fable posted above that he wished I posted in this thread, I will mention that I am researcher in neuroscience, working with human brain functioning and neurogenetics. My basic training is in two fields, licensed psychologist/neuroscientist. I am not an expert on gender issues, I study both male and female brains and I am interested in human brain function, not male v female brain functioning since the differences between the sexes in anatomy, neurotransmission and behavioural functioning, are smaller than the difference between individuals. However, I have some close collaborators who are specialised in gender research both at a neuronal, endocrinal (hormones) and genetical level, so I will try my best to post the most updated scientific information.

1. Gender ratio in RPG:s and computer games

The lastest international statistics I found for gender ratio of people who play computer games, was 61% male and 39% females. The ratio of females has increased over the last decade, and interestingly, in several Asian countries, the ratio of females is higher than males. Now, let's look at possible explanation models:
If genetical differences between males and females where the reason for the gender differences in computer game playing, the ratio should be constant over time and culture. The genome of Homo sapiens sapiens has not changed for tens of thousands of years. Sudden genetic change is not a likely cause of the recent increase in females playing computer games. Also, if genetic factors are cause for gender differences, then Asian people should have different genetic consitution that Americans and Europeans, which is not the case either. So, we can safely exclude genetic differences from the list of possible explanations.

What about biological differences? Biology is the field where our genes and the environment we live in, interact. Our biology is not static, determined by our genes, instead, it changes depending on how we live and our life circumstances, experiences and behaviour can also change how our genes are expressed (for instance turn off the expression of one gene and turn on another). Post-genomics, the study of how genes and environment interacts, is a vast field where little is known yet. However, some conclusions can still be drawn.

to be continued, I must get some work done right now...

[Ekental]

hmmm... don't you have to admit that personal bias creeps into ALL of us when we post? i.e. you have a scientists ways of looking at things, which is not always the most accurate or perhaps best?

[fable]

[QUOTE=Ekental]hmmm... don't you have to admit that personal bias creeps into ALL of us when we post? i.e. you have a scientists ways of looking at things, which is not always the most accurate or perhaps best?[/QUOTE]

Good science aims to eliminate subjective bias as much as possible from studies. While the mere presence of an observer can be said to affect results, science is supposed to at least seek for information prior to the formation of theories. Bad science occurs (at least in part) when theories precede research. This is the case with all attempts to prove that cultural distinctions are in fact biological ones, whether it's the so-called research of Victorians proving the differences in brain structures between the various races, or the current research proving men and women are different in the same fashion. In both cases, the theory preceded the evidence, so that the researchers were blinded by their desire to prove what they already "knew" to be true.

[C Elegans]

Sex hormones

It seems that some people posting in this thread believe that sex hormones have a simple, linear correlation to behavioural measurements. This is not so. Androgens, estrogen and progesterone are all part of the complex, multifactorial systens that affect human behaviour, and all sex hormones affect both genders. However, since this topic is only loosely related to gender issues in computer game playing, I will only give a brief overview and some examples here. If somebody is interested, I can post a more extensive review of the topic in the other gender thread later.

1. The relationship between level of a sex hormone and behavioral factors, is not linear. There is an association between certain subtypes of aggression and level of testosterone. There is also an association between some sexual behaviours and testosterone, too. However, there are also associations between aggression and cholesterol, serotonin, plasma HVA, overweight, social factors, etc, etc 10 000 different factors. In studies of humans, it has been shown that aggressive and violent men do not have increased level of testosterone. On the contrary, they have the same level of testosterone as the least aggressive men.

In human males, high levels of testosterone is associated with decreased sex drive and decreased size of testes. High levels of estrogen is associated with increased sex drive. In women on the other hand, giving testosterone often increase their sex drive. So as you can see there is no simple linear relationship between aggression, sex and sex hormones - the ratio is probably more important than the absolute amount, and the correlations look more like an upside-down U-curve than linear. It is also evident that the correlations are stronger in the behaviour -> hormone level direction that the hormone level -> behaviour direction. The hormone levels change depending on the individuals behaviour, so for instance: testosterone levels have been measured in male human athletes as well as rats fighting over territory, and the testosterone levels increase after the fight in the winners, not in the loosers. Again, the relationships seems to be in form of an inverted U: in studies of competitive males it has been reported that the most competitative males have either lower or higher levels of testosterone compared to mean values.

It should also be noted that many factors have much stronger correlations to aggression and sexuality that sex hormones. In apes, 5-HIAA (a metabolite of serotonin) in CSF (cerebrospinal fluid) has a stronger correlation to acts of aggression than any other known biological factor.

Also, Lost One mentions PMT, which in medical English is called PMD (premenstrual dysphoria) or in it's pathological form PMDD (premenstrual dysphoric disorder). What Lost One fails to acknowledge is that 1. PMD only occurs in 5% of fertile women and 2. PMD has no relation to estrogen or progesterone, instead the current hypothesis is that increased levels of testosterone or increased sensitivity in androgen receptors in these women.

So my conclusion is: Krusader and some other posters in this thread are vasty simplifying and exaggregating the role sex hormones play in gender differences in human behaviour, including computer game playing behaviours.

to be continued...if you want references, I'll gladly post them later in the other thread.

[Lost One]

Just something that I wrote in the Male vs Female gender differences thread that I thought I should bring here:

1. Male and female brains are different.

Sources: (though number 2 is rather simplistic...it has great credentials, coming from the Science Museum of London...a place I used to visit myself)

1

2

3

2. Men are more sexually driven than women.

1

2

From the book I read, 'Men are from Mars, and Women are from Venus' - it says something I think rings true...that men get turned on like switch lights (rapidly) and women like volume knobs (gradually). Is this not true? I'm not saying that women don't want sex. Quite the opposite. But that men 'click' as soon as they see a pretty female (or get turned on faster) than females, suggesting, if nothing, a faster, sexual drive.

Statistics also show that there are many more cases for men raping women than women forcing a man to have sex with her. And while a man 'forced' to have sex might enjoy it, this is rarely the case for female rape victims.

Also, more males, during adolescence, masturbate (and with more frequency) than females do. (I'll post the figures, if you wish).

3. Men are more violent than women.

From what I've read about in the net, it is said that women can be just as violent as men. I agree with this..and there are cases where women have been linked more than men to causing domestic violence.
However, it seems to be because of a man's stronger build and higher testosterone levels (which can also be found in women...but usually higher in men), not to mention social conditioning, that results in men being more violent.
However, I'll agree that women can be just as violent. But at this current age, is clearly not the case, on a global scale...but might change for the future.